Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[*=Regulator=*]

I'd wait and see. It's very likely that at least a good amount was absorbed sublingually. It's a bit of a head game - if you expect it not to work, you can talk yourself into taking that last dose. If you eat that last dose today, what will you do tomorrow? Worst case scenario, hold off for now and dose again at work. I'm sure you can manage 30 minutes feeling a bit off colour!

Good luck!

 

[BanginMyLifeAway]

yea thanks that was my thinkin i was checkin this one more time before leaving.. and ima just bring that last dose with me it started out under my tongue and moved ...i still preffer the pills ..im already feelin good tho so ima go ahead and say i think its workin cuz that was 30-45 min ago when i dosed ..thanks for reply tho dude im off to work

 

[JamtasticX]

@Jam:
On a slightly related note: I know that the naloxone in Sub has zero effect but is it possible that it might result in precipitated withdrawal if a massive dose like 24mg was shot? Or would the bupe still not 'allow' the naloxone to bind to the opioid receptors?

You actually have a better chance of the naloxone binding when you take a smaller dose, because not all receptors are filled.

If you fill all your receptors with bupe, naloxone will never be able to bind.

 

[SubDude]

@Jam: was just saying to astroboy007 to wait for a couple more responses before banging 24mg. Was saying 'no offence' because I didn't mean to imply your advice was incorrect or suggest that it wasn't useful.

On a slightly related note: I know that the naloxone in Sub has zero effect but is it possible that it might result in precipitated withdrawal if a massive dose like 24mg was shot? Or would the bupe still not 'allow' the naloxone to bind to the opioid receptors?

Back to me :D

I took about 40mg of Valium at 2pm today, then at about 7pm took another 40mg valium, 26mg lope, 10mg clonodine, 40mg Zolpidem (Ambien/Stilnox) and had about three alcoholic drinks. I still didn't get to sleep until about 9pm and have just woken up at about midnight. I don't fucking understand how I can take that many downers, find it difficult to fall asleep and then wake up 3 hours later! It's frustrating the shit out of me.

I took another 20mg Val and 20mg Zolpidem just then so hopefully can get some more sleep soon - I really can't take another night of sitting around until the sun comes up before getting another few hours of shit quality sleep. Any ideas on the insomnia? Do you think it's still part of the Sub WD or could I be on the wrong meds? I talked to my doc about switching to temazepam - would that be more effective than valium?

I had something like that happen to me when dropping off at .25mg [which I'd only been taking for about a week] after being on .50mg for a couple of mos. I didn't use anything near the comfort meds you've tried. I wish I had all them at the time.

On a similar note, I can tell you this... the VA put me in the hospital when I switched over from Methadone to Bupe. They did a rapid taper from high dose meth and stopped at 40mg. Then I was kept me on clonidine and valium for 3 days before inducing bupe. I was asleep for most all those 3 days. I guess they must have given me an enormous amount of clonidine. I don't know? The only thing I remember was they would wake me up every few hrs and make me stand while they took my blood pressure. Which I found out later was extremely low.

I honestly don't know what a safe dose of clonidine is? Is it prescribed? If so, you might ask you dr if you can take more. However, I'd make sure you have someone with you who can monitor your BP. You can get a cheap BP monitor online for $25-$35. Just google it. Here's one inexpensive source:

http://www.semedicalsupply.com/blood_pressure.htm

For many of us... insomnia is the one of the biggest obsticles to overcome. Between the lack of sleep and RLS I went back on. But my situation is likely different than yours as far as age and length on opiates. For me... the longer I was on OAT, the less motivated I was to get off and stay off. I hope that doesn't happen with you.

One other thing noteworthy is I've had a couple of lengthy periods of sobriety [one was 5 1/2 yrs] and those were the best times of my life. I highly recommend it if you're motivated...

 

[Suboxone]

Quick one: the Immodium on sale here in Aus comes in packs of 8, 2mg pills. To take a dose like Suboxone did above I'd literally need to eat two entire packs in one hit. Is this safe?

I'm going to go buy a couple of packs now but I don't want to kill myself by chowing through enough drugs to kill Elvis twice.

Thanks

It's entirely safe. Loperamide is an opiate just like any other, which is why it halts bowel movements. It just doesn't provide anywhere near a high the same as regular opiates.

On a positive note, no nausea upon wakening and have a bit more of a clear head. The only change in my medication / behaviour was the big dose of lope last night so I'm hoping this means that the WDs have peaked and I might be able to start reading soon. I'm now 7 1/2 days off the Sub. Surely I'm over the worst of it now. I'm getting pretty depressed about how long it's lasted already so if I'm worse tomorrow, I might have to bite the bullet and get a 1/4mg of Sub. I just wish I could read to pass the time.

So I'm assuming the Loperamide helped you? Did you get a high similar to what I described? Varying waves of warmth, sometimes incredibly intense?

 

[catcalls]

Reading this thread makes me want to kick myself. Because of one stupid mistake of taking all my Subutex in one day, now I'm on a higher dose, with daily Supervised dosing.

This sucks. I wish I could get down to 2mg, I just know I could kick the habit right there and then like some of you guys did here. I'd use Kratom extract x15 to help with the WD. I'm really ready for it now. I've even ordered some Kratom.

 

[Suboxone]

Reading this thread makes me want to kick myself. Because of one stupid mistake of taking all my Subutex in one day, now I'm on a higher dose, with daily Supervised dosing.

This sucks. I wish I could get down to 2mg, I just know I could kick the habit right there and then like some of you guys did here. I'd use Kratom extract x15 to help with the WD. I'm really ready for it now. I've even ordered some Kratom.

It just turned out that a few of us were kicking it at the same time. Some have gone the Kratom route, others have gone the Loperamide route. The difference being that Loperamide won't delay or lengthen the process nearly as much, but apparently the Kratom helps more. Don't take what I say for fact, it's just what I've gathered through experience and talking to people.

It feels good man, today is day 7. Although I'm in a lot of pain, I'm glad I went through this. The tuesday after next I get my limited pain script, I just need to keep my head on straight and not form a dependency.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

Reading this thread makes me want to kick myself. Because of one stupid mistake of taking all my Subutex in one day, now I'm on a higher dose, with daily Supervised dosing.

This sucks. I wish I could get down to 2mg, I just know I could kick the habit right there and then like some of you guys did here. I'd use Kratom extract x15 to help with the WD. I'm really ready for it now. I've even ordered some Kratom.

if i remember right you are the person with the "drug worker" that controls your dose or something like that.. i would just tell them you want to be on a lower dose and to slowly taper you down to ~2mg, that might work for you to feel better on bupe and also let your drug worker know that you are serious about being clean and might let you stop the supervised dosing. Then you could lower and take whatever dose you want without being watched taking your dose, you could ween off it at a low dose but continue to get your bupe and save it "for a rainy day" when you're clean and use it to catch a little buzz after a while. Just a thought. It is a good idea to have a back-up stash of it when weening down/ coming off it IMO.. some might think it would just cause problems knowing that you have it to take and will take it when w/ding.. but i think it helps knowing that you have it just in case you get really sick but have enough will power to say no to it and just get clean. of course everyones will power to say no varies. so it depends on the person. good luck.

 

[*=Regulator=*]

It's entirely safe. Loperamide is an opiate just like any other, which is why it halts bowel movements. It just doesn't provide anywhere near a high the same as regular opiates.

So I'm assuming the Loperamide helped you? Did you get a high similar to what I described? Varying waves of warmth, sometimes incredibly intense?

Well, it definitely did something. I 'only' took 20mg to start with then took another 20mg several hours later. I don't know if it was the lope or if I'm just slowly recovering but I had a massive breakthrough in that I was able to read for about half an hour (I usually churn through a couple of books a week so not being able to read has really sapped my morale). I didn't get any waves of warmth like you describe but that's probably because I didn't take enough. I'll try again later.

(Good book I'm reading, by the way - called "The Happiness Trap" - all about people's inability to deal adequately with negative emotion and their highly unrealistic expectations for life. Very cutting edge and clinically proven approach to helping people get their shit together. Got about half way though it. Guess that's for another thread).

I took another 20mg Val and 20mg Zolpidem just then so hopefully can get some more sleep soon - I really can't take another night of sitting around until the sun comes up before getting another few hours of shit quality sleep.

Well I most certainly did not sit around watching the sun come up, even though I haven't been to bed since I posted the above about 1am (now 6.30am). I actually got off my ass and went for a run! After barely being able to walk up a flight of stairs for the past week, that's definitely a good sign. Although I haven't slept, at least I've done something good for my drug addled body and got some of those endogenous opioids flowing :D How awesome am I?

Now, please indulge a little theory I have...

As many of you will know, after a number of years of heavy weed smoking, some people inexplicably reach a point where smoking starts to bring on intense anxiety. I definitely went through that phase and stopped smoking weed altogether for a few years (incidentally when I first started taking opiates).

In the last six-eight months, I started smoking again and found that the anxiety had lessened and I could smoke comfortably. Could it be that the Suboxone was chilling me out enough that I was able to smoke weed without negative effects but now I'm no longer on Suboxone, the old weed anxiety is back? Could this actually be causing some of the insomnia? The weed has helped with nausea but I'm not sure if it's making me anxious (as I'd be blaming those effects on the Sub withdrawal). Does this make any sense at all or am I talking shit?

Also, as Suboxone said, although I've never felt worse than during the last 7 days, it's great to have something to be proud of and to know that I'm (and you guys are) making progress!

@Subdude: I've got a shitload of Clonodine but I think it's pretty nasty shit. I think it was the main thing making me feel like a zombie. I started on a pretty high dose but my blood pressure dropped a ton so the Dr made me taper off it (pretty sure it's another one of those drugs that can kill you if you abruptly stop taking it). I've felt much more clear headed since but again, sleep has been hard to come by.

Finally; man this post exercise buzz feels great. Although I really want to sleep, this is the best I've felt since D-Day!

Good luck everyone

 

[baschoen]

Guys I want to get off suboxone. I have been on it for 6 months. Nobody tells you about how awful the withdrawals are going to be. I dropped down from 4mgs to 2mgs and had MAJOR anxiety issues. (Already have issues with anxiety and depression and the additional anxiety and depression was just too much to bear) SO my doctor took me back up to 4mgs of suboxone. I have been calling facilities to see if I can do inpatient detox off this shit. This stuff seems like the miracle drug but then once you have to come off it its worse than being on any other opiate.

Can anyone tell me what I'm in for if I go inpatient and take the plunge at 3-4mgs. How long it will take, what symptoms I will have etc... I know being in a hospital they try and make u feel somewhat better but my guess is they don't get rid of everything.

 

[*=Regulator=*]

Your problem was probably dropping by so much (4 to 2 is halving your dose [obviously] so is a pretty big step down). I think if you went to 3.5, then 3.0, then 2.5 etc. you'll find it much less stressful. Others in this thread have done that and have reported almost no withdrawal effects. Maybe have a chat to your Dr. about a very, very slow taper?

Otherwise, I know for sure there are inpatient detox facilities for Suboxone in Australia which makes me certain similar places would exist where you're from (guessing North America).

The difference is really between spreading a small amount of pain out over a really long time (tapering) or getting hit really hard for short period of time (straight detox). Decide which one of those options would be more tolerable for you and move on from there.

 

[baschoen]

That's what I'm debating. I need to get off this stuff and move on because the sooner I can get my brain functioning again. I know its going to take months once I get off the sub to get back to feeling "normal" if I even know what that feels like anymore.

Just from reading your recent posts about the trouble you have had coming off sub it seems as though the pain isn't going be great either way. I cant believe the withdrawal from this stuff last so long you said you are almost on your 8th day and you are still feeling miserable. Even with all the comfort meds you have. What level were you at when you jumped?

 

[Pegasus]

It just turned out that a few of us were kicking it at the same time. Some have gone the Kratom route, others have gone the Loperamide route. The difference being that Loperamide won't delay or lengthen the process nearly as much, but apparently the Kratom helps more. Don't take what I say for fact, it's just what I've gathered through experience and talking to people.

It feels good man, today is day 7. Although I'm in a lot of pain, I'm glad I went through this. The tuesday after next I get my limited pain script, I just need to keep my head on straight and not form a dependency.

Loperamide also extends the addiction period, IME about the same as kratom does.

 

[baschoen]

Trying to get off Sub - Any advice would be great

So basically I started out messing around with pain meds when I was a sophmore in college. (also became a big pot smoker my sophmore year). Was a big fan of them but could rarely ever get my hands on any. This continued into my junior year I used maybe once every other month or so. This was back when 2 or 3 norcos would have me nodding out. When my senior year rolled around I found a source for oxys (worst thing that ever happened to me) For the first half of my senior year I was pretty good about not using the OC too often. I would maybe use once a week or so. The second half of the year though I started to go down a bad path. Using as much as possible three or four days at a time and then using sub in between to avoid withdrawals.(I actually quit for about 3 weeks at one point). Started up again for about a month+ and came home one weekend and confessed to my parents that I was using. At that point I was so afraid of the withdrawal that we found me a sub doctor and quick. This was the biggest mistake, I should have done an inpatient detox and just gotten it over with because now I wouldn't be in the cycle of hell that I am in. I have had really bad anxiety and depression issues my entire life. Been prescribed clonazapam for anxiety and various depression medications. Never considered myself addicted to the clonazapam but reading some of the stuff on here maybe I am. I started on 12mg of sub dosing twice daily (8mg AM 4mg PM). Once in the morning and once in the afternoon/evening. Had no issues getting down to 4mg (2mg twice daily) but once I tried 2mg once daily I started having major withdrawal issues (sweats, nausea, cramps, restlessness) I have a sub doctor who I see once a month and a psychologist who I see twice a week. I just want to be off this stupid suboxone but had no idea when I started how hard it would be. Not only do the acute symptoms scare the hell out of me, but I had never heard about PAWS and how long that could last. I am currently considering doing an inpatient detox to get off the sub all together. Would jumping from 4mgs though be extremely hard? I've been on sub for about 6 months. Just am looking for any info and advice I have been looking for a job since I graduated college but my anxiety/depression/ and addiction seem to keep getting in the way.

 

[stray cat]

yeah, when you use the loperamide in high doses like that as a substitute for another opiate, you can still get w/ds when u stop, so a lot of people recommend a fairly slow taper off of the lope before being off of opiates entirely.

 

[catcalls]

if i remember right you are the person with the "drug worker" that controls your dose or something like that.. i would just tell them you want to be on a lower dose and to slowly taper you down to ~2mg, that might work for you to feel better on bupe and also let your drug worker know that you are serious about being clean and might let you stop the supervised dosing. Then you could lower and take whatever dose you want without being watched taking your dose, you could ween off it at a low dose but continue to get your bupe and save it "for a rainy day" when you're clean and use it to catch a little buzz after a while. Just a thought. It is a good idea to have a back-up stash of it when weening down/ coming off it IMO.. some might think it would just cause problems knowing that you have it to take and will take it when w/ding.. but i think it helps knowing that you have it just in case you get really sick but have enough will power to say no to it and just get clean. of course everyones will power to say no varies. so it depends on the person. good luck.

Yes, I have a drug worker. The pharmacist has suggested that I ring him on several occasions, to ask to be taken off Supervised dosing. I never have rang him yet, though.

Now that I'm on a level dose, I feel so much better! When I mean level dose, I mean taking the same amount every day. I used to take 4mg, 3.6mg, 3.2mg then 4mg again and repeat the dosing cycle for quite a while and that totally disagreed with me. It felt like I was in constant WD every morning.

I just needed the bump to get back onto a level dose, now I def. feel ready to drop again. Thanks for the encouragement!

catcalls

 

[astroboy007]

Well here's the thing,

What dose do you usually take suboxone, and what route of administration. Shooting 8mg would be about the same as taking 24 under the tongue, in terms of bioavailability.

Captan heroin will disagree, but I wouldn't think there is a huge difference between shooting, or sniffing, whatever. The difference is in the bioavailablity, but either way bupe will still cross the BBB and essentially be the same.

I usually sniff 2-4mg a day, at most, of suboxone. Which would be about .75-1.3mg shoot up. Captain heroin is even lower with like .025mg per shot (that could be off, but he shoots crazy small amounts).

8 or 16mg shoot is a lot of bupe. So depending on how much, and what way, you usually take, you could work something out to how and when to shoot in the future, but it's impossible to say w/o knowing everything.

Bioavailability -
Sublingual ~30, Sniffing ~50, Shooting IV ~100

Ok, well i take 16mgs under the tongue daily, have been on it for 25 days. I have always had it sublingually and never any other way. I have not used herion or oxys, or any other drug, for 25 days since i started the suboxone program.

 

[astroboy007]

I'd be extremely careful shooting that much. A sublingual 24mg dose is massive, depending on tolerance. I took 24mg sublingual and I was otherwise taking 12mg every day. 24mg put me out the for the count (not in a 'take me to the ER way', more like a 'no way can I walk down these stairs without falling on my head way).

On other hand, if you're used to taking that much, maybe it would be safe. I'd wait until a couple of other people have confirmed it's not going to kill you before you do it (no offence Jam).

I have a high tolerance, and like i was saying to jam, i am currently taking 16 mgs sublingually, so would you recommend shooting 8mg?

 

[astroboy007]

Jam and Reg covered the safety and bioavailability issues and I just wanted to throw in another aspect.

Being a partial agonist, buprenorphine has a ceiling for the opioid agonist effects that is equivalent to about 30mg of methadone and for most people, this ceiling is reached around 2-4mg of buprenorphine. Doses above this level will still have effects but you won't get a stronger opioid high no matter how much you increase the dose. Beyond the level where you reach the opioid-effect ceiling, for the most part its just more side effects and longer periods of saturation of your receptors so full agonist won't work.

If you get certain effects from 8mg, its very unlikely you'll get a better high if you double or triple that amount and for many people, they get more pleasurable effects at lower doses.

Well this is very interesing, being on 16mgs a day sublingually, what would yopu recommend that i shoot, 8mgs?

 

[catcalls]

Well this is very interesing, being on 16mgs a day sublingually, what would yopu recommend that i shoot, 8mgs?

My buddy always said its better to be safe than sorry and take 1/4 of what you are used to, so if I was on 2 bags a day, to take 1/2 a bag in a needle. Even that seems high, because later on he recommended taking 1/4 a bag for the same habit.

Personally, I think you'll regret injecting it! The high isn't that good IME and I'd rather drink poppy tea.