Nootropics to combat drug-induced psychosis?

[Psykonaut]

Hey guys,

I was wondering if anyone knows of any nootropics or other substances that are effective at relieving long-term alterations/brain damage from dissociative drugs (namely dextromethorphan). When I was younger, I robo-tripped 4 times and the last one triggered an intense 2 year psychosis, causing me to go into a paranoid schizophrenic type state of mind (insane delusions and memory problems on top of everything else)..It's been over 2 years since I've ever touched this stuff and it was most definitely the worst drug I've ever used (I will never touch dxm again, even in minute-doses).

I have since been using Piracetam (it's been about 5 months now), but it's only helped so much..I need to repair the NMDA receptor system and anything else that dextromethorphan affects. I still get random bouts of deja vu and I want to stop that experience at all costs (I don't find deja vu to be a normal experience, but a brain dysfunction)..I used to get deja vu almost every day after smoking salvia and tripping on dxm..that lasted for over a year, but as time went by, the effects became more and more subtle..my goal is to just heal my mind from the damage brought on from the drugs and to maximize my brains thinking capabilities. I've quit all illicit substances for well over a year now and I don't ever plan on going back to my old lifestyle. The only psychoactive drugs I take now are nootropics and caffeine.

If anyone has any sound advice please feel free to post, I know a good amount about nootropics but I only know so much..I can't find too much information related to this issue online as my problem doesn't seem to be very common at all. Thank you for reading my post and I look forward to reading your comments.

 

[Psykonaut]

Bump..

any advice from anyone?

Is there anything that would help the dopamine and sigma receptor systems in the brain as well?..thanks.

 

[Psykonaut]

Bump...

 

[Psykonaut]

So I guess no one has an answer...

 

[Jabberwocky]

I googled and found suggestions for DMG, sam-E, piracetam relatives, and huperizine. I didn't find people talking about what results they got just people throwing out ideas. My ideas would be fish oil and vinpocetine but I think everything is at the level of speculation with this endeavor. You got to check for interactions with any meds you take. Involving a doctor would be ideal. I'd only add one nootropic at a time and keep a log of improvement and any side effects. Adding to many things at one time can make it very hard to tell what is of benefit or a problem. Best of luck Also you may want to ask a mod to run this thread through Psychedelic Drugs as there are a lot of dissociative and nootropic minded folks there.

 

[Psykonaut]

I googled and found suggestions for DMG, sam-E, piracetam relatives, and huperizine. I didn't find people talking about what results they got just people throwing out ideas. My ideas would be fish oil and vinpocetine but I think everything is at the level of speculation with this endeavor. You got to check for interactions with any meds you take. Involving a doctor would be ideal. I'd only add one nootropic at a time and keep a log of improvement and any side effects. Adding to many things at one time can make it very hard to tell what is of benefit or a problem. Best of luck Also you may want to ask a mod to run this thread through Psychedelic Drugs as there are a lot of dissociative and nootropic minded folks there.

Thank you for your post Enki =)

I love fish oil, I did notice it helped me think a lot better/more clearly while I was on it..would you recommend any good sources of fish oil for good prices? (The only fish oil I ever got before was from Wal-Mart but I don't ever want to get supplements from that place again, almost all their stuff is crap).

I'll start taking SAM-e again and see how it affects me, I noticed it helped somewhat but it was starting to interact with other supplements that I was taking (or so it seemed). I've never really tried vinpocetine before, how does it affect you personally? Do you have any links regarding DMG recommendation for the issue I'm dealing with? I've never tried it before but I've heard some really good things about it. Thanks again.

PS: Can a mod please run this thread through the psychedelic drugs sub-forum please?

 

[AndroidsDreamofBTC]

This might sound a little obvious, but have you tried looking into Green Tea? I find it helps a lot of during the hangover, not sure if it will work as well with regards to DXM abuse, but yeah.

Perhaps you might want to consider asking the mods to move this thread to Advanced Drug Discussion? Maybe they might be able to help you out a little more than the ppl who frequent TDS?

 

[Jabberwocky]

http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/41698-concerns-about-the-use-of-nootropics-as-a-teenager/ it

I'm not finding that DMG suggestion. I thought it was in the thread above but maybe a post was deleted. Anyways when I searched the other day I looked at a few sources I'm not finding now.

I'm not supposed to talk about sources of nootropics because they are quasi-legal substances under the Bluelight User Agreement. Fish oil is likely not a quasi-legal substance but to be safe I'll just say there is a drugstore chain that runs buy one get one sales often and I haven't been unhappy, a lot of online stores are good to. If I have a quantity I always keep it in the fridge because even with preservative fish oil is pretty perishable.

I have a few references that aren't online if I find anything I think you would be interested in I'll PM you.

 

[n3ophy7e]

PS: Can a mod please run this thread through the psychedelic drugs sub-forum please?

Hi Psykonaut, sorry this wasn't looked in to earlier!! I'm going to move your thread to PD in hopes you'll get some more responses.

Mods, please feel free to forward it on to ADD if you see fit

 

[Psykonaut]

This might sound a little obvious, but have you tried looking into Green Tea? I find it helps a lot of during the hangover, not sure if it will work as well with regards to DXM abuse, but yeah.

Perhaps you might want to consider asking the mods to move this thread to Advanced Drug Discussion? Maybe they might be able to help you out a little more than the ppl who frequent TDS?

Haven't really thought of that, I drink green tea every now and then..I enjoy it, but how much should I be drinking every day? Would you recommend an EGCG/green tea extract supplement instead?

http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/41698-concerns-about-the-use-of-nootropics-as-a-teenager/ it

I'm not finding that DMG suggestion. I thought it was in the thread above but maybe a post was deleted. Anyways when I searched the other day I looked at a few sources I'm not finding now.

I'm not supposed to talk about sources of nootropics because they are quasi-legal substances under the Bluelight User Agreement. Fish oil is likely not a quasi-legal substance but to be safe I'll just say there is a drugstore chain that runs buy one get one sales often and I haven't been unhappy, a lot of online stores are good to. If I have a quantity I always keep it in the fridge because even with preservative fish oil is pretty perishable.

I have a few references that aren't online if I find anything I think you would be interested in I'll PM you.

I'm interested in hearing more, please PM me when you have the time.

Hi Psykonaut, sorry this wasn't looked in to earlier!! I'm going to move your thread to PD in hopes you'll get some more responses.

Mods, please feel free to forward it on to ADD if you see fit

Thank you for moving the thread I hope to get more responses as well lol.

 

[Ismene]

I'd read around on all these things that are supposedly good for you Psykonaut. Fish oil for example - particularly cod liver oil, there's some question that with all the pollution in the sea fish oils may contain mercury and dioxins etc.

I still think they're probably safe but be aware that the advertising isn't always going to be correct. I've tried modafinil - supposed to help you "concentrate" and keep you awake but I never noticed any improvement in my concentration to be honest.

 

[Psykonaut]

I'd read around on all these things that are supposedly good for you Psykonaut. Fish oil for example - particularly cod liver oil, there's some question that with all the pollution in the sea fish oils may contain mercury and dioxins etc.

I still think they're probably safe but be aware that the advertising isn't always going to be correct. I've tried modafinil - supposed to help you "concentrate" and keep you awake but I never noticed any improvement in my concentration to be honest.

Thank you for the post.

I did some research online, and realized that both dextromethorphan, and salvinorin-a (from salvia divinorum), are both k-opioid receptor agonists..and I've gotten deja vu after doing both of those..could I have perhaps damaged my temporal lobe or k-opioid receptor system by overactivating them from taking these drugs?..I have a feeling that this part of my brain never healed itself..does anyone know anything about this specific receptor system?

I was thinking about looking into some k-opioid receptor antagonists, nothing too strong, but perhaps it could fix the deja vu/psychosis I've been dealing with for over 2 years now. Any input is appreciated, thanks.

 

[interleukin]

You are overanalyzing the situation. The short answer to your questions would be that nobody knows why disassociatives could cause lasting psychosis. For there to be such lasting effects there has to have been either damage to certain neurons or more likely transcription level changes. The mechanism for how changes in transcription occur in neurons is poorly understood. As the main excitatory receptors in the brain, NMDAR’s are probably involved.

Nootropics may work or make the situation worse. Piracetam for example upregulates AMPAR’s which may compensate for poorly functioning NMDA receptors (Ca2+ enters through an open NMDA receptor and causes exocytosis of AMPAR’s among other things) in the formation of short term memory but in the long run may make your situation worse. I don’t see how EGCG or fish oil is going to help you but I guess they are pretty benign and unlikely to hurt you.

Basically what you are looking to do is selectively delete certain memories/changes in your brain. This is impossible to do with drugs. Best to just let time take care of cleaning up those unused bad changes. You could try to use GABA agonists (benzos) to speed up the dulling of the bad memories but it really isn't under your control what memories your brain choses to keep.

My advice to you would be to get your body into repair mode – start a moderate intensity lifting program and a good diet to go with it. The situation will heal itself in time. Don’t complicate it with other (psychoactive) drugs.

If you really really want to consider using drugs for this purpose, look into IGF-1. It may help with damage recovery but is expensive, difficult to use and may continue to protect the bad connections in the brain which are causing your deja vu. Same problem with using say glycine to modulate NMDA receptors. Of course this is all theoretical...

 

[hobhead]

neurologist - go to the best one that you can find .
you got jammed up by throwing drugs into yourself so why would tossing more that you don't know about be good for you.
medical people have the chops not folk medicine types .

 

[Psykonaut]

neurologist - go to the best one that you can find .
you got jammed up by throwing drugs into yourself so why would tossing more that you don't know about be good for you.
medical people have the chops not folk medicine types .

If only I had the money to actually see a neurologist..I would do that.

 

[Psykonaut]

Bump..

is there any possible way to be evaluated by a good neurologist for free or for a small fee?..I don't have a lot of money right now and no health insurance..but I just want to fix my mind and stop worrying about this for the rest of my life.

 

[Jamshyd]

^ I'm sorry, but if you don't have money to see a doctor, then perhaps you ought not waste the money you have on silly, overpriced nootropics.

There is absolutely no evidence that Nootropics cure psychosis, and any evidence otherwise would reflect the exceptions rather than the rule.

Also...

Nootropics may work or make the situation worse. Piracetam for example upregulates AMPAR’s which may compensate for poorly functioning NMDA receptors (Ca2+ enters through an open NMDA receptor and causes exocytosis of AMPAR’s among other things) in the formation of short term memory but in the long run may make your situation worse.

EDIT: Sorry - nevemind, misread your comment.

 

[Psykonaut]

^ I'm sorry, but if you don't have money to see a doctor, then perhaps you ought not waste the money you have on silly, overpriced nootropics.

There is absolutely no evidence that Nootropics cure psychosis, and any evidence otherwise would reflect the exceptions rather than the rule.

Also...



EDIT: Sorry - nevemind, misread your comment.

While there is no evidence that nootropics can cure psychosis, there is evidence that they can positively impact brain health and aid the process of healing/normalizing brain function. Clearly, there has been some semi-permanent alternation in my k-opoid receptor system, which has yet to be completely healed, but nootropics have helped me deal with this state of mind better than when I wasn't taking them. I can't imagine nootropics would cost anything even close to seeing a professional neurologist, not to mention the vast array off tests that will more than likely need to be taken on my brain..that will run me in the thousands to tens of thousands of dollars easily since I don't have health insurance. Aren't there drugs given to people to help with psychosis brought on by PCP and Ketamine? I can only imagine it would be helpful for me if it repairs the same receptor systems that are damaged by other dissociative drugs.

What would you do in my position?

 

[Solipsis]

I think you have no real valid reason to assume that your mental problems are actually caused by a busted NMDA system. People can go psychotic without having ingested any drug or it can happen from serotonergic drugs like LSD or mushrooms.
The fact that it happened with DXM for you is something I would consider coincedental when we consider the method of action (NMDA antagonism) and you should not only avoid DXM but all other psychedelics and other drugs equally. It's what they do as an underlying effect which is change the way you experience reality that is not good for you and which you seem to be unable to reverse when the drug wears off. Apparently you are sensitive to this derealization shift and it would take antipsychotics or other medicines to combat this.

What to do in your position is seek professional help, not a neurologist IMO but a psychiatrist. I really think you are looking at this wrong, it's not that a drug busted you neurologically but all likelyhood is that it is how you developed yourself and how your mind works that was first latent, the DXM activated it so to speak. Of course I don't know this for sure but it's the usual way to approach this sort of situation. Really.

Nootropics might help but they can also be counterproductive. Hell, I have never been psychotic (well only a few times when on a lot of R-ketamine or other drugs - so temporarily which doesn't count) and I have found some nootropics to be counterproductive cognitively. If you are having problems this might very well be worse.
Yes nootropics have potential but I do feel that you need to be mentally stable to throw that kind of stuff into the mix because it might complicate the matter further.

Psychiatric disorders may have a connection with but are not equal to cognitive or neurological impairment.

 

[Psykonaut]

I think you have no real valid reason to assume that your mental problems are actually caused by a busted NMDA system. People can go psychotic without having ingested any drug or it can happen from serotonergic drugs like LSD or mushrooms.
The fact that it happened with DXM for you is something I would consider coincedental when we consider the method of action (NMDA antagonism) and you should not only avoid DXM but all other psychedelics and other drugs equally. It's what they do as an underlying effect which is change the way you experience reality that is not good for you and which you seem to be unable to reverse when the drug wears off. Apparently you are sensitive to this derealization shift and it would take antipsychotics or other medicines to combat this.

What to do in your position is seek professional help, not a neurologist IMO but a psychiatrist. I really think you are looking at this wrong, it's not that a drug busted you neurologically but all likelyhood is that it is how you developed yourself and how your mind works that was first latent, the DXM activated it so to speak. Of course I don't know this for sure but it's the usual way to approach this sort of situation. Really.

Nootropics might help but they can also be counterproductive. Hell, I have never been psychotic (well only a few times when on a lot of R-ketamine or other drugs - so temporarily which doesn't count) and I have found some nootropics to be counterproductive cognitively. If you are having problems this might very well be worse.
Yes nootropics have potential but I do feel that you need to be mentally stable to throw that kind of stuff into the mix because it might complicate the matter further.

Psychiatric disorders may have a connection with but are not equal to cognitive or neurological impairment.

Thank you for the post, your advice is appreciated. The main reason why I haven't taken antipsychotics is because I'm honestly afraid of the effects that it may cause in me, I want to make my mind sharper and more functional, and I don't know what potential effects an antipsychotic would have on my brain. Every time I talk to a psychologist or psychiatrist they seem to not even communicate on the same level as me and seem surprised at some of the stuff I apparently know (which in my mind should be common knowledge). I need to find someone who is an expert in psychotropic drugs and their effects on the human brain..unfortunately I'm not in an area that's populated with people like this.

I have a family history of mental illness (I have manic depression), so taking salvia and dxm definitely set something off in my brain that most people don't experience..although I have spoken to other people who have smoked salvia and they said they experienced the similar symptoms of deja vu that I had, and I read online that one of the long-term effects of salvia divinorum could be deja vu (I hope this isn't going to last for the rest of my life, lol, seriously though, it's driving me insane).

My goal is to just come back to reality 100%, and not deal with these insane delusional thoughts anymore. Are antipsychotics often prescribed for people who suffer from forms of derealization? Thanks again.