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Herion and Suboxone

A

astroboy007

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
106
Location
Sydney, Australia
Hi Guys, i have just started on suboxone and sont know a great deal about it. I need to know how long after taking my last dose i should wait before using, and then how long after that do i wait to start taking my dose again? What will happen if i do it to soon? Will i get sick?
 
Isnt the idea of suboxone that you DONT use?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as HR as it might be to ask for a safe timeframe to use, I think it would be in the greater interest of harm minimisation if you flat out didnt use :)

Do what your prescribing doctor tells you to mate, clearly your on it for a reason and that reason isnt to be doing more H :\

EDIT::

Might want to clarify what exactly your dosing here.

If you asking how long to wait after cessation of Herion use to start taking the suboxone then thats fair. If your asking when its best to take H after suboxone, then I dont think this is the place. Do your own research, or better yet just listen to your doctor.
 
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If you stop taking your subbies to do up gear and you get back into that habit for even just a few days or a week again, you have to wait over 24 hours before taking subs again or you will WD really hard and be real sick. just stay on the meds because if you don't show up to your daily pickup for a few days you will get kicked off it and you will need to book another appointment with your Doc when u need it again.

If you have a problem with smack, you really dont need to be using it again if you've found help.. i mean.. you want to not do it right? thats why you got on the program?
 
Im quite familiar and been researching this exact same topic and i have alot of friends on subies and Methadone etc etc. Its pretty much useless dosing H or any other opies after u began a detox or rehabilitation program as it wont effect u at all. Got a few friends moaning and bitching that nothing effects them anymore (MDMA, H, Morphine, oxys, codeine even LSD) Some are even combining Zoloft with them and i have explained to them many many times that it inhibits the substance effects and can be dangerous.

If i were u i wouldnt think about using opiates at all. Uve got subies so that will help u get off that crap. Ill prob be hitting them up soonish as well, i dont want to do this for the rest of my life. Good luck with it man.
 
Hi.
Is he trying to get a high from Sub? is that what he wants to know.
Hari Om
edtree
 
^yeah

you're generally not going to get a large crowd of people supporting this kind of move around bluelight. the point of starting a program is to keep off the other opiates/oids. if you're not ready to quit then why waste your money and mess with you mental (and physical) health going back and forth in limbo of withdrawal?

in saying that theres no reason not to tell them.

between a good 24-48 hours after your last dose (once withdrawals have set in) is ok to dose. your body is the best judge of that.

then after your last of the heroin wait until the intial stages of withdrawal and you'll be ok to redose the subs. even if you mistime it a little and throw yourself into precipitated withdrawal, although acute, you'll be fine and settled on the bupe generally within an hour or two.
 
GABA drugs that help with neuropathic pain help a lot i hear between the period of heroin WD and starting subbies
 
Yea i got on the program to sort my life out, save some money and feel good about myself again, i just wouldnt mind doing it, say once every 3 months!!
 
I have been clean of opiates for 3.5 years now (just psyches for me now and weed) but I was on either done or subtex or suboxone for 4 years and have plenty expericence with trying to use on it.

What Leftwing said is right. To get a proper hit of H you need to wait until you have wihdrawal symptoms of the Bupe which can take an annoyingly long time, then you get have a hit. Then wait for H to completley go (start of withdrawal) and your alright for more bupe.

I think though what the others said and it is best to not try and cheat the system by having the odd hit of H. As i found there never really is the odd hit and you usually either end up keep using and missing your next fews days and getting kicked of which leads to more desperation and using or never getting a proper hit of H and being pissed off, depressed, losing $$.

If you can quite easily addicted to stuff like me then I think psychedelics and weird stuff like K is the best stuff, all other drugs I find too addictive and even alchohol I find i can start to slip up if i get pissed a few days in row.
 
astroboy007 said:
Yea i got on the program to sort my life out, save some money and feel good about myself again, i just wouldnt mind doing it, say once every 3 months!!
Click to expand...

Hi astro - welcome to bluelight. It certainly can be hard to juggle 'box with the odd taste, as is pointed out above. But don't be too hard on yourself if you still feel like using - that is the nature of addiction. You got yourself on the 'box so give yourself a pat on the back - you are taking steps to control your life so good on you.

You might consider switching to methadone - at least then if you have the odd blast you won't have to worry about precipitated withdrawal. This is partly about personal preference, and also about your local dispenser/prescriber - the number of takeaways you can get can vary depending on what drug you are prescribed. You might also be able to get alternate day dosing on the 'box, which halves the number of times you have to queue up for a dose every week.

Give NUAA a call: 1800 644 413. They are the NSW drug users' group - plenty of personal experience there of managing a habit so you will get good advice.
 
This judgemental tone that keeps coming through on a few posts around Bluelight is really concerning. Give the original poster the information, not a lecture about being a naughty boy/girl.
 
noones giving them a lecture, get over it. like it or lump it the general population are going to pipe up when somebody wants to use while they're on a program which is more than fair enough. my question was rhetoric.

noones gone out of there way to attack the OP and they've received the exact information they got,
 
Flexistentialist said:
This judgemental tone that keeps coming through on a few posts around Bluelight is really concerning. Give the original poster the information, not a lecture about being a naughty boy/girl.
Click to expand...

Isnt that the truth lol, there is some good advice though. I really just need to know how to avoid the really bad wd that can happed.
 
^give NUAA a call - they will help you out with the detail. A rough guide - wait until you are hanging out after your last shot of heroin before you dose with bupe again. That's probably 12 hours -ish. You can use heroin any time after a dose of bupe - but you may not feel it if you go too soon.
 
What is harm reduction?

leftwing said:
noones giving them a lecture, get over it. like it or lump it the general population are going to pipe up when somebody wants to use while they're on a program which is more than fair enough. my question was rhetoric.

noones gone out of there way to attack the OP and they've received the exact information they got,
Click to expand...

I haven't had time to respond to this properly before now, but I do disagree quite strongly with what you are saying leftwing.

It is certainly not "fair enough" to "pipe up" if someone wants to use when they are receiving pharmacotherapy. It is not harm reduction to do so either.

Let me attempt to explain:
There is a nice definition of harm reduction, by Diane Riley and Pat O'Hare, listing 4 basic principles:
Pragmatism
Humanism
Focus on harms (rather than drugs used)
Hierarchy of goals

Telling people they shouldn't use heroin if they are on pharmacotherapy definitely fails point 3 above. Furthermore, pharmacotherapy isn't about abstinence anyway, it's about reducing harm. In a perfect world everyone would have access to prescription heroin as treatment (not just Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands, and some lucky sods in Canada and the UK) and we wouldn't even need to have this conversation.

I would quite happily provide the OP with instructions on how to inject bupe (along with a description of the risks, of course) - but I've certainly incurred the wrath of mods over in OD for doing this in the past.

More's the pity - because I certainly do know what harm reduction is.
 
Suboxone is so much more superior to methadone for someone who wants to get off H, but like others have said its easy to still use on suboxone. I've used small amounts of H successfully having had buprenorphine in my system. If you're on 4mg or under then you'd get H past the BBB no worries, you'd be wasting some depending on time between taking your subs. I IV suboxone so the time i can dose is different. I was getting full agonistic effects from OC and H waiting between 12-24 hours since dosing buprenprphine. i'd imagine it would be different dosing sublingual and railing subs when it comes to waiting it out.

As for methadone, i've seen what it did to my cousin and so many people that i've met and are on it. I was on it for 5 days several years ago and it turned me into the fucking devil... i looked like absolute shit on it and so do most people i know who have been on it for extensive amount of time.

OP get on subs but keep the dose low. you'll find that using smack spontaneously isn't possible. it has to be premeditated. I look back at my H using days and know that 95% of my use was spontaneous. I know suboxone is a very useful tool.... use it wisely, and i don't think anyone mentioned tramadol being useful for the waiting periods both pre and post agonist
 
ayjay said:
I haven't had time to respond to this properly before now, but I do disagree quite strongly with what you are saying leftwing.

It is certainly not "fair enough" to "pipe up" if someone wants to use when they are receiving pharmacotherapy. It is not harm reduction to do so either.

Let me attempt to explain:
There is a nice definition of harm reduction, by Diane Riley and Pat O'Hare, listing 4 basic principles:
Pragmatism
Humanism
Focus on harms (rather than drugs used)
Hierarchy of goals

Telling people they shouldn't use heroin if they are on pharmacotherapy definitely fails point 3 above. Furthermore, pharmacotherapy isn't about abstinence anyway, it's about reducing harm. In a perfect world everyone would have access to prescription heroin as treatment (not just Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands, and some lucky sods in Canada and the UK) and we wouldn't even need to have this conversation.


More's the pity - because I certainly do know what harm reduction is.
Click to expand...

i understand where you're coming from, ayjay. i think what i said was taken too literally. my response was a rhetoric generality to people going back and forth from the gear onto bupe.

i couldn't give 2 shits whether joe blow on MMT or BMT wants to use heroin a few times. but what i will question is their motive of why they're wanting to use when i see fit. afterall this is a public forum.

i haven't piped up and questioned anyone's motive on wanting to use on a maintenance program here; i've given the information they've wanted to receive.

re-read my original response.

I would quite happily provide the OP with instructions on how to inject bupe (along with a description of the risks, of course) - but I've certainly incurred the wrath of mods over in OD for doing this in the past.
Click to expand...

and this has do with what? we continually give people instructions on how to inject buprenorphine mixes in OD and the problems which can occur. your differences with older OD mods have nothing to do with subsequent ones do they?

i'm well aware the differences you've (and flex) had with OD mods in the past, no need to carry on with grudges (if that's what they are, i've read responses where your age may be playing an emotional factor;)) when we've never even debated before this.
 
hi astro boy welcome to bluelight,

theres a few things you got to know about Suboxone, firstly the active ingredient buphrenorphine has a higher affinity for receptors than othe opiates like heroin morphine ect.
that means that if you take these opiates and then suboxone you will find that they displace the opiates of the receptor in favour of bupe.

naloxone is supposedly only active when injected, which means that if you used then IV suboxone you would go into precipitated withdrawal- which is unpleasant.

most programs have a few days limit before having to go back to the prescriber for script renewal. take you dose early one day, miss the next day dose and use at least 24hrs after last pharmacotherapy.

other people i work with in your situation have tried using on top of suboxone, this is dangerous for a few reasons- mainly that the levels required to overide bupe are so high that they are close to OD for most people. Screw it up and youll end up in ed or dead!!

the prescribers are not stupid, make sure you tell them how much and how often you are using, it is known that people coming onto programs take a while to change their previous drug habits. one every three months is still better than daily.

My question for you is; if you have had trouble controlling youre use how are you going to safeguard this once every three month episode. Alot of peoplei work with end up dosing erratically which means using more often, life starts going backwards!!

if youre going to use and continue pharmacotherapy, dose 24hrs after your last use of substances. this should mean that you are in some state of withdrawal, and if you sublingually use your suboxone as directed you should not go into precipitated withdrawal


take care with this decision,

think twice and act once
 
I dunno about subs personally ,but when I and other people I am friends with used to be on Methadone,they would try to do heroin or dilaudid IV and they would have to use like 5X more than otherwise just to get a half way heroin or other opaite high,which was a waste of money and why I never mixed methadone and heroin or other opiates at the same time.Methadone seems to block the "high " of heroin for 2 or 3 days ,and subs seems to be shorter from what I hear,never used subs myself.Anyway Those same friends of mine on methadone still have not learned and will try to use dilaudid(htdromorphone),while taking methadone and will waste a lot of money and dilaudids to only get a small effect from IV'ing them,and I tell them all the time,you are not gonna feel the high from heroin or dilaudid while on methadone ,even using large amounts,will only give you a small buzz compared to if you were not on methadone,but they keep on doing it from time to time and are always kinda upset that they did not get really high ,but doing the same thing time and again and expecting different results is a defintion of insanity I think..one of these days they may be off methadone for a few weeks and try and do the large amount of diluadid or heroin and may OD ,as no methadone will be there to fill most of the opaite receptors and they will get too high and maybe die?! for subs,this I cannot say,because I do not know of anyone personally on subs ,only methadone or just heroin or opiate users...
 
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