Yemen's bad habit- You can't easily qat it out

[Vader]

Yemen's bad habit
You can't easily qat it out
Despite endless efforts to eradicate it, Yemenis still love chewing qat
The Economist, Sep 30th 2010 | SANA’A

HE mountains of Yemen are covered in green terraces growing qat, a mildly narcotic plant that takes up more than half the country’s arable land. Its shoots are gathered daily, packed in bags or wrapped in leaves and carried by lorry to noontime markets. A big fistful goes for about $2, depending on provenance, tenderness and taste. In Sana’a, lunch is often large but hasty, eaten quickly to line the stomach for an afternoon’s chewing. Those not invited to a mafraj—a sunlit living-room at the top of Yemeni homes—chew qat in the street or at work.

It was not always like this. Thirty years ago, chewing qat leaves for their curious effect of physical relaxation and mental stimulation was an occasional pastime. Now more than half of Yemenis chew it daily. This has bad effects. A World Bank report estimates that a quarter of working hours are spent chewing and that Yemenis spend money on qat instead of food for their often malnourished families. Irrigating qat is also a drain on water reserves that are anyway drying up fast. And it can cause oral cancer. A local pundit, frustrated by people’s reluctance to protest against Yemen’s poverty, corruption and violence, describes the people as “anaesthetised by qat”.

Full Article

 

[Vader]

The pun is just horrible.

 

[Jamshyd]

^ LOL agreed.

I think the Qat problem in Yemen and Horn of Africa is easily downplayed because it is a plant and people describe it as "mildly narcotic". Now I haven't ever tried it, but its active constituents (cathinones) are essentially dirty amphetamines and mephedrone protoypes. It is no wonder that Yemenis (and their African neighbors) can't ever get along with one-another. They also have a notoriety in the whole mid-east for being rather unpleasant people.

I'm definitely interested in trying Qat for the novelty, but the culture surrounding it seems despicable to me.

 

[blah]

The article was infantile, but also somewhat leaning toward propaganda!

Jamshyd, yes qat is a plant, but to describe it as a 'mild narcotic' is simply bullshit. It is a 'herb' which is a 'mild stimulant'. And while it may indeed contain cathinones, how you could say these cathinones are 'dirty amphetamines' and 'mephedrone prototypes' is somewhat baffling if not downright disingenuous! Yes, maybe cathinone in the pure form may resemble what you describe, but this is a plant with small quantities of those active constituents. This 'herb' is about as close to amphetamines and mephedrone as water is to alcohol! Yeah sure, add sugar to water with yeast, wait a few days, and hey presto you have alcohol.8)

If you have not even tried the plant how can you make these 'ridiculous' claims or 'reinforce the propaganda'? I have tried qat, many times in fact. It is rather pleasant with no discernable come-down or withdrawal when used in moderation.

I'm sure in Yemen and other countries, there are those people who 'abuse' the stuff(qat), just as there are some people in the west who abuse alcohol, or amphetamines. But make no mistake, those who do abuse qat would be in far better shape than those who abuse either alcohol, amphetamines or tobacco!

For you to even 'go there' and suggest that this 'plant' makes Yemeni's and their African neighbours hostile in some way is pathetic. What so you been buying into uncle sams nonesense about those crazed qat Somali warlords have you? Yemeni's for the most part are very warm, generous and hospitable people. Have you been there? You been comparing western statistics with them? What a joke!

You may very well like to try qat for its 'novelty' factor, but for those cultures that use qat, it has been a part of their culture for thousands of years! And far from the Yemeni culture being or seeming 'despicable' to you(I'm sure Somalia's problems have little to do with qat!), maybe you should take a look at some elements of western culture and ask yourself which cultures do the most damage at large. Guantonomo any one? WOMD? 1 million Iraqi's? Wiki-leaks? War criminals? War on drugs? Mehico? Homocide rates? All crime?

You should know better! Shame on you. Harsh response huh...but deserved.

 

[Vader]

The article was infantile, but also somewhat leaning toward propaganda!

In what way is it infantile? It seems to me to be written using more sophisticated vocabulary than one would expect from the majority of print media, and to be aimed at an intelligent, well-educated audience. It presents both sides of the argument fairly, and is informative. I don't understand your problem.

This 'herb' is about as close to amphetamines and mephedrone as water is to alcohol! Yeah sure, add sugar to water with yeast, wait a few days, and hey presto you have alcohol.

Amphetamine:

Cathinone:

Looks an awful lot closer than:

Water:

Ethanol:

I'm sure Somalia's problems have little to do with qat!

Really? I know that in the UK khat use is definitely the biggest social problem amongst the Somalian community, and I imagine it's a big problem in Somalia itself.

For you to even 'go there' and suggest that this 'plant' makes Yemeni's and their African neighbours hostile in some way is pathetic.

I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that stimulant use leads to heightened aggression.

 

[Jamshyd]

^ Thank you.

Blah, take it easy on the crack.

 

[psychomimetic]

This might interest folks here-

In Yemen, 80% of the males and 45% of the females were found to be qat users who had chewed daily for long periods of their life.

In Somalia, 61% of the population reported that they do use qat, 18% report habitual use, and 21% are occasional users.

Researchers estimate that about 70–80% of Yemenis between 16 and 50 years old chew qat, at least on occasion, and it has been estimated that Yemenis spend about 14.6 million person-hours per day chewing qat. The local researcher Ali Al-Zubaidi has estimated that the amount of money spent on qat has increased from 14.6 billion rials in 1990 to 41.2 billion rials in 1995. Researchers have also estimated that families spend about 17% of their income on qat.

-From the wikipedia article on Khat.

Cultivation of the mild stimulant has increased 13-fold in three decades and now uses 30 percent of the nation's water, according to the World Bank.

More than 50 percent of Yemeni men chew the leaf every day, according to a World Bank report published last June.

One in seven working Yemeni produce and distribute khat, making it the second-largest source of jobs in the country, the World Bank says. It employs more people than the public sector.

-from
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=adONRtGWdo9U&refer=news

Khat is very popular in that region and from what I've heard from a few people I know from Yemen, causes a lot of problems there. And the people in that area do indeed have a reputation for being pretty aggressive.

 

[Vader]

I don't really understand how a drug that is clearly very habituating and which causes people to fuck up their careers, interpersonal relationships, and finances over is always described as "mild". It must be because it's a plant, and we all know that natural drugs are harmless, amirite?

 

[blah]

Yes, 'that' too.

Hmm, I thought I pointed out the similarity between cathinone in pure form and amphetamine? Did I not make the distinction clear enough between a plant with relativly low levels of primary active ingredient, and amphetamine?

I think we can all agree that amphetamines, d, l, etc, what ever, really do have great potencial to compromise lives. For the most part that relates to the potency of those drugs rather than their pharmocological effects. Because khat has low levels of cathinone, within a bulky plant material which must be chewed over hours, things like over dose and psychosis are virtually impossible.

Just useing those two measures of possible harm is far from exhaustive of course, but I think the point has been made sufficiently in terms of khat being a 'mild stimulant' rather than a 'moderate' or 'potent stimulant', the latter of which can most certainly result in signifigant withdrawal upon cessation of use along with signifigant physical 'cravings'.

Khat on the other hand may indeed be 'habituating'(like coffee), but not even vaguely addictive. Therefore, as far as some kind of 'harm index' is concerned, khat(the plant, not pure cathinone) would be very low down on the list; certainly well below alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, meth, or any number of other 'drugs'. On the other hand, I'm sure the propagandists might have us all believe otherwise, ie "...let's ban another useful plant" that isn't a vine or tobacco because we wouldn't want the competition with our pharmaceutical pills.8)

It is all 'relative' of course. I suppose next you are going to describe coca leaves as though they were somehow used in a similar context to cocaine or crack or meth?8) Coca leaf too has been used for thousands of years in a cultural/spiritual/recreational/medicinal context, and aside from the propaganda which has led to its prohibition all over the world because of 'cocaine' which can be derived from it, all those peasant farmers have been deprived a legitamate income base because coca leaf cannot be exported to the world; as a health suppliment, to aid weightloss, to alleviate the effects of altitude sickeness or a headache, or serve as a moderate aphrodesiac for those who would prefer to pay a dollar or two for a handful of herbs instead of a blue pill costing monopoly prices well outside any relationship with the means of production...just to mention a 'few' of that particular plants positive attributes.

One could enjoy a few beers, or glasses of wine too, and not be too rattled unless they too were 'abused'; which if it is, as alcohol often is in fact, can cause uncontrollable acute vomiting, defacation and urination in pants, brain damage, alcoholism, poisening, and all manner of other negative impacts which I'm sure I need not expand upon. But what if one were to simply distil 100% ethanol from beer and drink that? Wouldn't that be like the cocaine of alcohol? A pint of that would have any one pretty fucked up and potencially kill them.

Khat is no different to coca in terms of its cultural status. It is often used in a social context, like alcohol but without all the carnage. In the vast majority of cases, it produces no major ill effects when used moderatly.

What do you guys think would be the difference between a group of people chewing khat over several hours and socialising and then going home and some coca chewers doing the same down south? How would those groups compare to the typical western 'piss-ups'? Or meth binges, or cocaine fests? How would the herb chewers feel compared to the alcohol bingers the next day? Or the coke heads? Or meth fiends? Would there be any major hangovers with the plant users? Violence? Psychosis? Crime?

Who made any mention that just because something is a plant it is harmless? Strawman any one? Only a complete imbecile could think that. But I think we all do know is that, 'there are plenty of plants which can kill, and easily at that'. Why state the 'obvious'?

Perhaps if some of you who desire to so readily and willingly spread the disinformation which is mainly based upon the propaganda that is effectivly an attack on different 'cultures' some of which do not warm to alcohol for example, might one day try the 'flowers of paradise' or marvel at the wonder of Matchu Pitchu with 'moma coca' and then re-evaluate your current misguided views.

 

[psychomimetic]

I've tried both Khat and Coca and I can say that Khat is definitly stronger and more addictive. And yes, it is addictive. It's also not like coca in that a much larger portion of Yemen's population are daily khat users then peruvians are daily coca users. Khat is also a very large part of Yemen's economy and khat actually plays a different role in Yemeni culture then coca plays in Peruvian culture. The only real similarities between the two are that they're both culturally important, lots of people use both (although khat is more used in Yemen then coca is in Peru), they've both been used for a long time and they are both mild when compared to pure synthetic stimulants like amphetamines.

I'm not advocating banning any substances, I think all drugs should be legal, including the plants and the synthetics and everything in between. But Khat use is causing a lot of problems in Yemen. Not only does it cause a number of social problems in that region, but it's using 30% of Yemen's water, which is causing a pretty bad water shortage in Yemen. It makes people way more unpleasant (I've known daily khat users and I wouldn't go so far as to say they were all assholes, but all of them were abnormally aggressive and mean and they generally acted like stimulant addicts).

Also, having done khat, I don't really think it's a useful plant for spiritual purposes. It's kinda fun though. I don't think khat really plays a spiritual purpose in Yemeni or Somalian culture by the way, but you seem to think it does.

What do you guys think would be the difference between a group of people chewing khat over several hours and socialising and then going home and some coca chewers doing the same down south? How would those groups compare to the typical western 'piss-ups'? Or meth binges, or cocaine fests? How would the herb chewers feel compared to the alcohol bingers the next day? Or the coke heads? Or meth fiends? Would there be any major hangovers with the plant users? Violence? Psychosis? Crime?

Having experience in this area, the khat chewers would probably be more nauseus and maybe have headaches if they were novices (not addicts). If they were addicts they'd act like they always did, because they would be daily chewers. The khat chewers would probably be less pleasent to be around and more high then the coca chewers.

The people on this website are quite experienced with drugs. We talk about the positives but we should be realistic and also talk about the negative social impact many drugs have.

 

[Jamshyd]

Blah: you have an awful lot to say over very little. I wouldn't say that you are a paragon of responsible stimulant use.

As psy and yerg agree, there is a fine line between opposing prohibition and acknowledging a social problem (ie. khat addiction) as a problem.

I'm all against prohibition too, but I will never tell you that I enjoy the company of tweakers or crackheads, for example.

 

[Jamshyd]

Also, having done khat, I don't really think it's a useful plant for spiritual purposes. It's kinda fun though. I don't think khat really plays a spiritual purpose in Yemeni or Somalian culture by the way, but you seem to think it does.

It doesn't.

And strictly speaking, as an intoxicant Khat is in fact prohibited by the religion (Islam) of almost all Yemenis, all Eritreans, all Djiboutians, most Somalians, and some Ethiopians.

Btw, notice how all these countries are as fucked up as they can get.

 

[Vader]

Jam, you seem like the person to go to with this:
I've wondered what the exact sense of the Arabic phrase that translates to "intoxicant" is. Does it have the sense of any mind-altering substance, or of ones that are deemed to "dull the mind", which could exclude stimulants? If so, why is tobacco smoking so wildly popular with Muslims? What about coffee (although I suppose the Muslims I know who are coffee fiends are mostly secular Turks)?

 

[Jamshyd]

This is a subject of endless debate in the Islamic world.

What IS known for sure is that Khamr (خمر, lit. "ferment") - as well as gambling FWIW - are not exactly Allah's favourite hobbies: some mentions of wine. As usual, the Qur'an is less than clear on whether this is outright forbidden or not. The majority of the Alcohol rule is derived from the hadith which, to me, is something that should be questioned if any muslim remembers Muhammad's last words at his death bed (paraphrase: "If you had worshiped me, I am human, and I'm dying; If you worshiped God, then he's eternal.") Most people, however, are more than happy to take the words of other humans who tell them how to run their lives

But back to your question, if you refer to the query linked above and read (5:91), you may infer that God is irritated by Alcohol's effects on memory and concentration, which I suppose answers your question as to what kind of intoxicant is not liked.

As for the word "Intoxicant", its literal translation is muskir (مسكر), which is used in the same manner as "inhebriating" in English. Generally, something that interrupts the normal functioning of a person (and thus hinders people from (ideally) actively-submitting absolutely to the will of God). This puts a question mark on stimulants. It is well known that even orthodox holy men would use coffee excessively in order to pull prayer-allnighters.

It is also well known that certain Sufi groups in the middle-ages, most notably the Qalandars, would eat excessive amounts of Hashish and go into mystical trances. They were (and are) still considered holy men, especially in the Indian subcontinent where they are a caste all to themselves. Of course, the Qalandars are what you can call medieval hippies - they revolted against pretty much all orthodoxy, which means that the Hadith like flew out the window.

What is so funny, however, is what you may note in the link: that one of God's favourite promises is an infinite supply of wine in heaven. What's more, he seems to offer a wide selection of flavours such as ginger :D. This suggests that Alcohol may not be exactly forbidden, but that God simply has a very refined taste and abhors the wines of this world .

But after all is said and done, the majority of muslims hold the Hadith in high esteem. This, sadly, means that they run their lives according to the interpretations of the clergy, which are not always necessarily selfless and enlightened. So if you ask a regular Yemeni on the street, I'll bet you money he or she will tell you that drinking is haram while they chew Khat, and if you ask a priest, he'll say the same without chewing and, once you leave, puts the back in his mouth and continues to chew.

One last thing that should be noted is the practice in jurisprudence of qiyas (lit. "measurement") which is when a group of Islamic legislators debate how a new item (such as tobacco) measures up to the acceptability of other similar items which are already talked about in whichever school of Shari'a they happen to follow, and decide according to precedent and according to their own tastes whether it is halal or haram. This process frequently ends with a fatwa which the pios are supposed to follow. In some sad countries like Saudi Arabia, this is inseparable from civic law and is thus enforced actively.

This of course means that the Shari'a is in fact different between one jurisdiction and another, and further between one personal belief to another (assuming the laws are not actively enforced). This is why I always object when people talk of "sharia law" as being a singular entity.

 

[Hammilton]

I've also tried khat, obtained from a somalian cab driver in Minneapolis. I noticed he was chewing it, asked if it was khat and if I could have some. He obliged and didn't charge me anything. Drove a little insanely though, and when I was getting in, told me that I couldn't ride in his cab if I had any alcohol.

I don't doubt that it's addictive in a sense, but I can't see it producing anywhere near the sort of addiction that amphetamines do. He said his khat was very fresh (well, very "new" which may not be the same thing, I guess) and gave me what he said was a big dose. I was stimulated, for sure, but I'd compare it to 10mg of amphetamine without as much focus. No real mood lift, just mild stimulation that lasted about five hours.

It's legal in the UK but we still don't see major problems with it there. Mephedrone was legal, and look what happened with that.

edit: actually was khat banned along with mephedrone?

 

[Vader]

^I'm pretty sure it wasn't, cathinone itself was already illegal but not khat. It's the same situation we had re psilocin vs. fresh mushrooms before the ban.

I think more people here would use khat if it was a bit easier to get. At the end of the day, I don't know where to get it, and if I did I might be loth to actually try and purchase it, given that a language barrier is likely and that Somalians are sometimes pretty fucking scary (if you'll excuse the sweeping generalisation).

Out of interest, how big was the dose he gave you? I was under the impression that typical use involved the chewing of an entire bundle in a sitting.

 

[Hammilton]

I don't know how to describe it. It was sort of a bundle of stems cut to about 1.75-2.25 inches long. I think he took a full bundle, cut 2 inch segments from it and wrapped them up. I could fit the whole thing in my mouth if I had really wanted to, but I chewed about 1/4 of the thing at a time.

Are the stems stronger than the leaves maybe? I don't know. Maybe it really wasn't a big dose. No idea.

 

[blah]

I've tried both Khat and Coca and I can say that Khat is definitly stronger and more addictive. And yes, it is addictive. It's also not like coca in that a much larger portion of Yemen's population are daily khat users then peruvians are daily coca users. Khat is also a very large part of Yemen's economy and khat actually plays a different role in Yemeni culture then coca plays in Peruvian culture. The only real similarities between the two are that they're both culturally important, lots of people use both (although khat is more used in Yemen then coca is in Peru), they've both been used for a long time and they are both mild when compared to pure synthetic stimulants like amphetamines.

I'm not advocating banning any substances, I think all drugs should be legal, including the plants and the synthetics and everything in between. But Khat use is causing a lot of problems in Yemen. Not only does it cause a number of social problems in that region, but it's using 30% of Yemen's water, which is causing a pretty bad water shortage in Yemen. It makes people way more unpleasant (I've known daily khat users and I wouldn't go so far as to say they were all assholes, but all of them were abnormally aggressive and mean and they generally acted like stimulant addicts).

Also, having done khat, I don't really think it's a useful plant for spiritual purposes. It's kinda fun though. I don't think khat really plays a spiritual purpose in Yemeni or Somalian culture by the way, but you seem to think it does.

Having experience in this area, the khat chewers would probably be more nauseus and maybe have headaches if they were novices (not addicts). If they were addicts they'd act like they always did, because they would be daily chewers. The khat chewers would probably be less pleasent to be around and more high then the coca chewers.

The people on this website are quite experienced with drugs. We talk about the positives but we should be realistic and also talk about the negative social impact many drugs have.

I've tried both khat and coca, on numerous ocassions. So are you now claiming that coca is 'addictive' too? Please, if you have something to say regards 'harm reduction', do not spread this misinformation. Neither coca leaf or khat is remotly addictive. Habit forming? Certainly - like coffee. But addictive? What is addiction exactly again? Do we use the WHO/DSIM criteria or the UN/DEA version?

In my estimation, khat is less potent than coca leaf, but in terms of their effects, there are similarities. However, the Economist describes the plant as a mild narcotic! Narcotic? Are we sure it is a narcotic? What is a mild narcotic again?8) Semantics - 'reinventing words', and from an alleged esteemed journal at that!

All of the khat users I've known have been responsible, pleasant people to be around. Khat makes people social, relaxed, talkative and considerate. When the effects wear off, those people do not become 'abnormally aggresive and mean'; and I'd actually consider 'abnormally aggressive mean people' to fit the bill as far as assholes are concerned.

Khat also has a long history regards spiritual use contrary to your claims. If you read some literature other than Google you may just find some alternative historical accounts which illustrate this point clearly. Obviously, the church has played a role in the dissemination of the propaganda through the ages(a cultural thing), and the likes of Google are currently swamped with the official 'party line', so it is not as straight forward to get the heart of the matter.

I don't doubt that many people on this website are quite experienced with drugs. But in line with the 'harm minimisation philosophy' here, I felt it was necessary to point out the gross flaws in the original article and also challenge the further propagation of that misinformation here. If it becomes 'common knowledge' that khat is a, 'mild narcotic', and 'addictive' - regardless of the truth in that - we all know where khat is headed and it is not at ones local farmers market so people have an alternative to pills and booze.

Slowly but surely, these types of articles, and many peoples blind acceptance of them, is precisly what brings about prohibition. I'm sure we're all familiar with the term, 'manufacturing consent', and we're all familiar with the extreme harms the prohibition of cannabis alone has brought about all over the world. Maybe we should be less naieve as to play right into the devils hands and do their work for them?

Also, I do not for one moment deny that either khat or coca leaf could have a potencially negative impact for 'some' people who seriously abuse these herbs, ie chew large quantities of it all day every day. That said, some individuals may indeed use either of those herbs all day every day, and they work hard, and live to a ripe old age; just as is the case for those who chew betel nuts every day all day. Kind of paradoxical isn't it, when you go into those remote villages and some of the people, particuarly the elderly, are doing just that. They may be over 90 years old, with stained red teeth...smiling away...not bothering a soul, still working even...just like the coca chewers similarly.

This is about khat though isn't it? You want to know why places like Yemen and Somalia have some problems? How about an average wage of $900/year in Yemen? What is the minimum wage in Somalia? Um, an egg and a bottle of water?8) When there is economic hardship, that really does play into things, and perceptions. When there are deficiencies in governance, or overt corruption, or even a lack of a government, maybe even civil war, and a lack of natural resources...it is easy to blame a plant huh? Now where have we heard that line before? Reefer madness!

 

[blah]

It doesn't.

And strictly speaking, as an intoxicant Khat is in fact prohibited by the religion (Islam) of almost all Yemenis, all Eritreans, all Djiboutians, most Somalians, and some Ethiopians.

Btw, notice how all these countries are as fucked up as they can get.

Complete an utter nonsense.

I take it you've been to those countries?

 

[Jamshyd]

^ You're starting to make a complete and utter idiot out of yourself, my friend .