Benzos Tolerance - how fast, and what things make it develop faster?

[TheAzo]

So. I like benzos (and all GABAergics, it seems, at least all the ones i've tried).

I also am of the understanding that benzo tolerance takes a long time to go down, and benzo withdrawal is hell. So, best to try to avoid tolerance, or ensure that it's minimal, and thus avoid becoming a benzo addict.

I have fairly good self-control with drugs, but I don't know where I should be placing my limit. I currently have been limiting myself to taking benzos once a week, or occasionally twice a week. If i only take benzos once, i'll sometimes take some other GABAergic instead (a night of excessive drinking, phenprobamate, or etaqualone). I don't know whether i'm being too paranoid or not with these limits.

I'm wondering, among other things, which benzos are the "worst" with building tolerance, assuming one takes "equivilent" doses (based on say the benzo equivilence charts)? People seem to say that short acting ones like alprazolam and temazepam are particularly bad, but I'm unclear on whether they're taking equivilent doses (seeing as a single xanax bar is ~equiv of 4x10mg valiums, and shorter in action, for example), and whether they're talking about the same number of doses, or staying at a constant level of high by redosing on the short acting benzos. I'd like some more specific/quantitative answers, if possible.

So, my questions basically are...
* Which benzos are least nasty with regard to tolerance, assuming one takes equiv doses? Ie (according to wiki's equiv charts) 10mg diazepam = 0.5mg alprazolam/clonazepam = 20mg temazepam = 1mg lorazepam=~1mg Etizolam = ~1mg phenazepam, etc (i list those in particular because those are the ones I either have, or have coming in the mail)
* What dose/frequency of use will keep tolerance development negligible?
* Is it better to take the same amount spread out over several sessions, or in one big amnesic benzo binge? (ie, is it worse to take 7 pills in one day once a week, or 1 pill a day all week?)
* Are there any pointers to help minimize tolerance, beyond the obvious?
* Would alternating between benzos and a carbamate (phenprobamate, soma/carisoprodrol), instead of taking benzos every time help reduce buildup of tolerance? (assuming the frequency of taking a GABAergic is the same, does it help to switch off between different kinds)
* Is the tolerance between different benzos complete, or just nearly complete?
* How long does a small tolerance take to go away? (lets say a 50% tolerance, wherein 30mg of diazepam would get you where 20mg used to)

Can anyone share their experiences, preferable with as much quantitiative detail as possible, of their experience developing tolerance to benzos?
Like, how often they took what benzo in what amounts for how long, and how soon they began to experience tolerance, and if they were able to lower it by abstinence (for how long)?

I _do_ recognize that it's different for different people, which is why i'm asking for different peoples' experiences, so that I can see the range of what people have experienced.

Right now i get where i want to be off 1mg xanax or 20mg diazepam (and afaik that is my natural state) - i'd rather like to keep it that way - adapting to tolerance by upping doses is a step down the road to become an addict - and that's not where I want to go (i've been sufficiently scared by the tales of benzo addiction). Again, i don't take benzos daily - i'm talking about recreational use once, rarely twice a week. Last month's benzos were probably equiv to 80mg diazepam (mostly xanax, as i didn't have diazepam yet).

Much thanks in advance

 

[jamesBrown]

Im gonna try to give you some advice man, but I gotta sit here and read through your entire post thoroughly and slowly type up a response to all of those questions...just give me a few minutes.

Next time, you might want to start the thread off with a simple explanation and like one maybe two questions. And then when those questions are answered, you move on and ask a couple more, until you got all the answers you were looking for.

Alot of people tend to skip over very long posts that ask alot of questions like yours.
Im not saying you did anything wrong, im just saying that you might get more advice/help if you shortened your posts and spaced the questions out a little more.

OK...im gonna give this a shot...

 

[jamesBrown]

I also am of the understanding that benzo tolerance takes a long time to go down, and benzo withdrawal is hell.

True, once you have a significant tolerance to benzodiazepines, it can be extremely hard to lower that tolerance back to anywhere near where it was in the beginning. Alot of times, with severe benzo tolerance, the person is NEVER able to go back down to "baseline"...i.e...get back to zero tolerance.

* Which benzos are least nasty with regard to tolerance, assuming one takes equiv doses? Ie (according to wiki's equiv charts) 10mg diazepam = 0.5mg alprazolam/clonazepam = 20mg temazepam = 1mg lorazepam=~1mg Etizolam = ~1mg phenazepam, etc (i list those in particular because those are the ones I either have, or have coming in the mail)

In my opinion, it doesnt really matter what benzo you are taking, they all develope tolerance very quickly, and I honestly dont think that taking one benzo in comparison to another will help you develope a tolerance more slowly. The cross tolerance with benzodiazepines is pretty much 100%.
(also...i am prescribed temazepam...and I do not agree that 20mg's temaz= 0.5mg's clonaz/alpraz.....i get the 30mg's temazepams, and I would say they are more like 1.5mg's alprazolam or clonazepam).

* What dose/frequency of use will keep tolerance development negligible?

Whatever the amount of benzo you are taking is gonna determine your tolerance. Its like a linear line. If you take only 0.5mg's of xanax a day every day, your tolerance will be very low. If you take 2mg's of xanax every day, your tolerance will be low/moderate. If you take 6mg's of xanax a day, your tolerance will be moderate/high...etc...
When taking benzos, theres no getting around the tolerance issue. The only way to prevent tolerance is to only take benzos on rare occasions. Otherwise your tolerance level will increase accordingly with your dose level. In my opinion, if your using benzos recreationally, and you want to keep your tolerance at a relatively "safe" level....I would only take approx 2-3mg's MAXIMUM/day of alorazolam/clonazepam or an equivelant dose of another benzo.

* Is it better to take the same amount spread out over several sessions, or in one big amnesic benzo binge? (ie, is it worse to take 7 pills in one day once a week, or 1 pill a day all week?)

This depends on which way you prefer to take your benzos....I honestly think there wouldnt be much of a difference(tolerance-wise) if you took 7mg's of xanax all at once, only once a week....or if you took 1mg of xanax every day for a week. From my personal experience, your tolerance level will still come out about the same either way. Other people may have a different opinion, but thats just my experience.

* Are there any pointers to help minimize tolerance, beyond the obvious?

Not really. The only way to minimize tolerance like I said earlier is to not take benzos, or atleast to take a smaller amount of them. Like if you want to be able to get fucked up every few weeks or so on 4mg's of xanax, try only taking 1-2mg's at the most on a more regular basis.

* Would alternating between benzos and a carbamate (phenprobamate, soma/carisoprodrol), instead of taking benzos every time help reduce buildup of tolerance? (assuming the frequency of taking a GABAergic is the same, does it help to switch off between different kinds)

I dont have a whole lot of experience with this exact issue but i would imagine it might help. But if it did, I would think it would only be a small amount. Since they all work on the same part of the brain, they probably have a high cross tolerance as well, but my guess is the cross tolerance isnt quite as large as it is with just benzos. Meaning....instead of almost 100%....its probably more like 60-80%. I could be wrong, just an educated guess.

* Is the tolerance between different benzos complete, or just nearly complete?

I dont think the *cross tolerance* is 100% complete....but it might as well be because its probably like 95-98%. Whatever the % is, its extremely high....so high that its safe to just assume that its pretty much compelte cross tolerance.

* How long does a small tolerance take to go away? (lets say a 50% tolerance, wherein 30mg of diazepam would get you where 20mg used to)

If you stopped using any benzos completely(including any GABA related drugs)....I would say a small tolerance would be greatly reduced by about the 3-6 month mark. Its really hard to answer this accurately because everyones different as yuo said....but in my experience....it would take a few months atleast to almost completely get rid of a small tolerance. And sometimes it wont ever go away completely.

Can anyone share their experiences, preferable with as much quantitiative detail as possible, of their experience developing tolerance to benzos?
Like, how often they took what benzo in what amounts for how long, and how soon they began to experience tolerance, and if they were able to lower it by abstinence (for how long)?

I am prescribed 1.5mg's of clonazepam and 30mg's of temazepam a day. I noticed that after only about a week or two with both of those drugs, there effectiveness was significantly reduced.....by about 20-30% I would say(maybe even up to 40-50% sometimes). But, I noticed that if I kept taking those doses, my tolerance didnt really drop anymore than that. Ad sometimes I woud save up my pills for a couple days and take like 60-90mg's(2-3 pills) of the temazepam at once, and it would still get me pretty high or relaxed(whatever you wanna call it) even though I had been taking them daily for months. And like I said, I hvaent really been able to lower my toelrance to these medications yet because i havent stopped taking them for long enough. I mean, I can make my dose feel about 20-30% better sometimes if I take like 3 days off and then dose again, but thats about it, and then after that, it goes right back to where it was immediately.

Right now i get where i want to be off 1mg xanax or 20mg diazepam (and afaik that is my natural state) - i'd rather like to keep it that way - adapting to tolerance by upping doses is a step down the road to become an addict - and that's not where I want to go (i've been sufficiently scared by the tales of benzo addiction)

If I were you I would stay at that exact dose. I think you will be able to enjoy the benefits of benzos(even though it will be minimal effects because of the small dose) without having to worry much about addiction or a huge tolerance. And i think if you decided once every 2-3 weeks that you wantedto take 2 or 3 or 4 times your normal dose to get real high, that would be OK, as long as you only do it very rarely. If you start doing that shit every week it will almost definitely make your tolerance skyrocket and then you will start taking more and more until you find yourself with a dangerous benzo addiction.

Sry it took so long to post alll of this you just had so many questions. I hope my advice helped and I also hope other people give you there experience/advice so you can have more than jsut one point of view. Allthough, by the time I will be done writing this thing, 20 people will probably have posted by then.
Good luck and be safe.

 

[TheAzo]

Thanks so much for the detailed answers - I was expecting that people would pick and choose what they'd reply to, but you covered em all.

One thing i realize now may have been unclear - i do not use benzos daily (i realize those examples, which i'd phrased like that to illustrate questions, in particular, make it sound like i've been dosing daily) - I've been limiting myself to twice per week (usually once with a benzo, once with something-else), out of fear of developing this dreaded tolerance.

Editing orig post to make that clearer as well.

Interesting that you find Temazepam so much more powerful than the charts show it as (that along with my lorazepam, is still somewhere in the bowels of the international mail system, or in the stomache of some customs agent, though i've taken lorazepam before). Will definitely take that into concideration when I get to try it.

 

[jamesBrown]

Thanks so much for the detailed answers - I was expecting that people would pick and choose what they'd reply to, but you covered em all.

One thing i realize now may have been unclear - i do not use benzos daily (i realize those examples, which i'd phrased like that to illustrate questions, in particular, make it sound like i've been dosing daily) - I've been limiting myself to twice per week (usually once with a benzo, once with something-else), out of fear of developing this dreaded tolerance.

Editing orig post to make that clearer as well.

Well, after I spent nearly 40 minutes last night on that post for you, I have to ask.....did my advice help you in any way...by giving you extra insight?, or maybe info you never knew before?

I mean, you dont have to lie just because I spent so much time on a response, if my post didnt help much then let me know, I wont mind. I still think that that information can be used by many other people who happen to be browsing BL for benzo/GABA information.

 

[TheAzo]

Yeah - it really was helpful, and i'm very thankful for it. It exceeded my expectations

 

[hydrochron]

Another thing you should take into consideration is often time's you'll be very impared and not be able to notice. This is because the Anxiolytic effect that benzo's have. So you might be blasted and not even realize it.

I've noticed that tolerance seems to build the fastest with short acting benzo's like xanax, and usually the slowest with long acting benzo's such as valium.

Once you get a really high tolerance, it will always be that way, kind of like "loosing the magic".

My advice would be to appreciate benzo's and what they do. Try to get away with the smallest amount's possible to get a buzz. I noticed that I've gotten the most out of them when i've had a long day and took just the right amount, just not a excessive amount.

If you take to much your just going to end up wasting them, and blacking out. Anyways tread easy mate, dont make the same mistakes other people have .

 

[TheAzo]

Another thing you should take into consideration is often time's you'll be very impared and not be able to notice. This is because the Anxiolytic effect that benzo's have. So you might be blasted and not even realize it.

I've noticed that tolerance seems to build the fastest with short acting benzo's like xanax, and usually the slowest with long acting benzo's such as valium.

Once you get a really high tolerance, it will always be that way, kind of like "loosing the magic".

My advice would be to appreciate benzo's and what they do. Try to get away with the smallest amount's possible to get a buzz. I noticed that I've gotten the most out of them when i've had a long day and took just the right amount, just not a excessive amount.

If you take to much your just going to end up wasting them, and blacking out. Anyways tread easy mate, dont make the same mistakes other people have .

Yeah, i keep hearing the short-acting = worse for tolerance bit, it seems so counter-intuitive, it would seem like something that got one equally high for a longer period of time should produce more tolerance, not less - though I suppose i have to accept this on the basis of the large majority who feel this way.

Certainly, it's what i want to hear, as I generally prefer diazepam...

I'd still love to hear more peoples personal experience - how much were you able to take before tolerance started creeping in, and, if you tried, were you able to reverse it once you first noticed it? (as said, i'm more interested in people who were using at lower doses, trying to preserve their ability to enjoy benzos)

 

[stray cat]

Yeah, i keep hearing the short-acting = worse for tolerance bit, it seems so counter-intuitive, it would seem like something that got one equally high for a longer period of time should produce more tolerance, not less - though I suppose i have to accept this on the basis of the large majority who feel this way.

i would think that the short-acting benzos might build tolerance faster, at least partially, due to their short length of action and the need/want to redose sooner, etc.

 

[totach]

all i know is i take 2mg xanax evreynight for quite awhile now a few months about.To tell you the truth im always going thru opiate w//d's so i can never tel if i also hav benzo w/d say i run out of the xanax.Evreyone keeps telling me if i had them i wouldnt be asking so i guess its ok since its short acting n i only dose once at night.If anyone can comment on what i just said id like 2 hear it pls.I also look forward to another post like jamesbrown.

 

[hydrochron]

The azo, I noticed that when 1mg of xanax or klonopin was needed at a time, is when it probably worked the best. Once you hop above 3mgs a day you just keep going up. It really depends on your control. I took a handful of bars and didn't get a buzz while tapering on valium. So stay below 3 to 4mgs and you'll be golden. Never dose sporaticly.

 

[bronson]

1)Which benzos are least nasty with regard to tolerance, assuming one takes equiv doses? Ie (according to wiki's equiv charts) 10mg diazepam = 0.5mg alprazolam/clonazepam = 20mg temazepam = 1mg lorazepam=~1mg Etizolam = ~1mg phenazepam, etc (i list those in particular because those are the ones I either have, or have coming in the mail)

2)What dose/frequency of use will keep tolerance development negligible? / Is it better to take the same amount spread out over several sessions, or in one big amnesic benzo binge? (ie, is it worse to take 7 pills in one day once a week, or 1 pill a day all week?)

I'll address the questions I have some personal experience with.

1) On average I've found that the shorter the half life is, the quicker tolerance will build.

2) There really isn't any way to keep tolerance from developing assuming you use on a semi regular basis. That being said, a binge will change tolerance much less than a steady daily use.

The issue becomes that one binge can easily become daily binging, and then you end up even worse off.

Also, don't ever binge beyond the limits of your tolerance just to try to attempt to chase the high longer. It's just not safe, and in the end you get a tolerance regardless.

With benzos, less is always more.

My $0.02

 

[WayneRooney]

Useful thread. Recently 'discovered' benzo's. Initially as a weapon to combat/enjoy stimulant comedowns. However I've discovered the usefulness of diazepam for situations such as a job interview I had last week, and for just chilling out at night, as opposed to having a few glasses of wine.

Like I say, I was initially going to just use this new found wonder drug for practical occasions, which would mean rarely using from month to month. However after discovering the recreational value, this thread is quite re-assuring.

So am I right in thinking I'll bareley encounter problems If I limit myself to one night a week, say 20-30mg just to chill out. (I have strong will-power and am sensible with things like this, so 'pushing it' won't be a problem)

 

[muvolution]

lorazepam is a great drug, a good middle ground between alprazolam (xanax) and diazepam (valium).
generally, any benzo EXCEPT xanax can be switched to valium for tapering (and generally always is in a clinical setting). Just keep that in mind.

Also, In my experience, benzo tolerance builds quickly (within a week) and even after years of non-use will shoot right back up to where it was within 2-3 uses.

JamesBrown made a very detailed and informative post - there's not much else to say.

 

[sallycinnamon1]

Whatever the amount of benzo you are taking is gonna determine your tolerance. Its like a linear line. If you take only 0.5mg's of xanax a day every day, your tolerance will be very low. If you take 2mg's of xanax every day, your tolerance will be low/moderate. If you take 6mg's of xanax a day, your tolerance will be moderate/high...etc...
When taking benzos, theres no getting around the tolerance issue. The only way to prevent tolerance is to only take benzos on rare occasions. Otherwise your tolerance level will increase accordingly with your dose level. In my opinion, if your using benzos recreationally, and you want to keep your tolerance at a relatively "safe" level....I would only take approx 2-3mg's MAXIMUM/day of alorazolam/clonazepam or an equivelant dose of another benzo.

So what if your are limiting your usage to once every week, or so. Would this even accumulate a tolerance?

 

[dokomo]

^It would, especially if you are taking a recreational dose and taking other GABAergic drugs during the week as well.

 

[sallycinnamon1]

^It would, especially if you are taking a recreational dose and taking other GABAergic drugs during the week as well.

A problematic tolerance? Could I not take 20mg diaz once a week and still enjoy it?

 

[homeydontplaythat]

wait, what? using just once a week would increase your tolerance? what about people that take the same dose everyday for years? my dad takes 1mg of xanax to go to sleep and has had to increase his dose like once in 20 yrs.

i think a lot of responses here are biased since most people here are either addicts or using stuff recreationally. there are not many people taking benzos simply as prescribed on this board.

 

[Znegative]

I've been addicted to benzo's for the past few months now. My tolerance is pretty high I would say, as to make myself FEEL the benzo's, I usually take 6 mg of xanax the second I wake up, and then dose another 2 mg of xanax and 1-2 mg of clonazepam, throughout the rest of the day.

HOWEVER, the funny thing is, that my tolerance (the ammount I'm refering to that now gets me high) is significantly higher than what it takes to keep me straight (about 2 mg clonaz and 1 mg xanax seems to do me fine, sometimes I can go lower for a few days cause of clonazepams half life.)

The thing is though, is that even if I drop from 10 mg xanax to 1 mg clonazepam for a week (this happened cause I was in the hospital and I buy most of my benzo's illicitly), when I go and take a higher dosage again, I'll feel pretty good, but by the next day, to feel the same effects I'm back at 10 mg again. Benzo tolerance WILL drop with short acting ones, but if you redose at high after a little break, you'll be back where you started in no time.

 

[dokomo]

wait, what? using just once a week would increase your tolerance? what about people that take the same dose everyday for years? my dad takes 1mg of xanax to go to sleep and has had to increase his dose like once in 20 yrs.

i think a lot of responses here are biased since most people here are either addicts or using stuff recreationally. there are not many people taking benzos simply as prescribed on this board.

Read what I said - taking recreational doses (the dose that gets you high) once a week would increase your tolerance. Specifically that same dose would not continue to get you high eventually.