• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio

Can a device outperform a recreational drug?

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Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
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Apparently there's a legitimate market for devices that treat depression. Article. Examples:
electroconvulsive therapy, vagus nerve stimulation, repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation, and cranial electrotherapy stimulation.



So then the question: is it possible to produce a reliable and robust high with a device (that doesn't administer a chemical into the body)?

(like something backed by real evidence, not the psychedelic mp3s or the Orgasmatron or any of the devices in Cronenberg movies)

 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6052271/Septal-stimulation-for-the-initiation-of-heterosexual-behavior-in-a-homosexual-male
The aim of the experiment is pretty reprehensible but the results are interesting
Stainless steel Teflon-insulated electrodes 0.003 in. diameter, each with three to six leads separated by 2 ram, were implanted into the following brain regions: right mid septal, right hippocampus, left and right amygdalae, right anterior hypothalamus, right posterior ventral lateral thalamus, left caudate nucleus, and at two subcortical sites within the left lobe of the cerebellum. Cortical leads were placed under the dura at sites in the left and right frontal regions, left and right parietal areas, and right temporal region. Triple-lead silver ball polyvinyl chloride acetate-insulated electrodes were im- planted into the left anterior and left posterior septal region. The silver ball contact points were 0.5 mm in diameter, each 2 mm apart. Intracerebral cannulae were implanted into the septal region bilaterally and into the hippo- campus...

... only stimulation of the septal region resulted in a pleasurable experience, with stimulation of other sites being either neutral or aversive...

...A program involving both passive (other- induced) and self-stimulation of the septal region was begun the following day. A summary of the stimulation sessions is presented in Table 1. During and following the initial three periods of passive stimulation B-19 exhibited an improved mood, smiled frequently, stated that he could think fnore clearly, and reported a sense of generalized muscle relaxation. He likened these responses to the pleasurable states he had sought and experienced through the use of amphetamines. Moreover, he reported an associated state of sexual motivation.
 
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Yup. I believe that electrical stimulation of nucleus accumbens, striatum, median forebrain bundle; really anywhere involved in reward, will be pleasurable.

Somewhat related, but holy crap. China is ablating people's nucleus accumbens as treatment for alcoholism. I wonder if the patients became extremely anhedonia afterwards.
 
They put electrodes in his septum to help him? I gotta read that article it puzzles me. I've heard doctors justify ECT by saying "He's a danger to himself: an aggressive course of treatment is justified." Most people are revolted by ECT but at least the current is applied to the skull, not the brain. Nothing is inserted in the brain.

I know in Cuba political dissidents are given ECT (this is a fact) to make them less of a nuisance to the state. Some of the more fanatical government officials will tell you that opposition to the state is itself a symptom of mental illness. Opponents of the regime will almost unanimously tell you that ECT is used solely to suppress and punish dissent. I heard a 3rd interpretation from someone who actually administered ECT in Cuba: it is emotionally taxing to aggressively oppose the government while living in Cuba (this is true I've lived there) and that there just happened to be a lot of maladjusted and severely distressed people in mental hospitals who legitimately needed ECT in order to return to functional life on the outside.

Sturnam I wonder if or how China got the subjects to consent to the ablation. The MMPI measures positive and negative symptoms (e.g. hopelessness and anhedonia, resp.) but rater bias is a liability. I imagine the Fourth Military Medical University is not renowned for compassion.

How's about less intrusive devices? I mean, an axe to the head has profoundly narcotizing effect but I was thinking more along the lines of something to amplify whatever the runner's high is or to replicate the experience of spiritual beatitude or (you get the picture).
 
Yeah, I figured you were probably more interested in 'practical' approaches (i.e. not brain surgery).

I'm not aware of any other non-intrusive device that works. I suppose transcranial magnetic stimulation may be able to provide some reward if targeted at any of the reward pathway structures, but I'm not sure if the technology can penetrate the brain that deep. So far TMS is only able to direct a pulse a few cms into the brain at best.
 
This will surely be the future of recreational anything imo. A small-one-time-use device that will trigger off action potentials and you have to pick it up form your dealer! (sorry vendor talk :p)
 
I know in Cuba political dissidents are given ECT (this is a fact) to make them less of a nuisance to the state.

Amusing as it is this was happening up until the late 60's in the uk to anyone just a 'bit' out of place mentally. However in place of ECT was the instant structural change of a lobotomy. From memory around 100 children under the age of 14 had this procedure performed.

Crazy stuff!
 
I think things like hypnotherapy have potential.

I believe you could probably be hypnotised to remember and feel your first time on mdma or something.
 
I think things like hypnotherapy have potential.

I believe you could probably be hypnotised to remember and feel your first time on mdma or something.

hypnotherapy/psychotherapy is more controversial then illicit substances! I don't see too much future for this heh.
 
what happened to VR? When I was growing up everyone talked about it being something that would be available very very soon, and that any synthetic reality would be possible. This has yet to even get off the ground though.

I'm trying to remember the name of a vehicle where the rider stood inside 3 concentric rings which rotated in different directions, allowing the rider's body to "float" in any direction. This is a start since the inner ear regulates conscious attention significantly
 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6052271/Septal-stimulation-for-the-initiation-of-heterosexual-behavior-in-a-homosexual-male
The aim of the experiment is pretty reprehensible but the results are interesting
Stainless steel Teflon-insulated electrodes 0.003 in. diameter, each with three to six leads separated by 2 ram, were implanted into the following brain regions: right mid septal, right hippocampus, left and right amygdalae, right anterior hypothalamus, right posterior ventral lateral thalamus, left caudate nucleus, and at two subcortical sites within the left lobe of the cerebellum. Cortical leads were placed under the dura at sites in the left and right frontal regions, left and right parietal areas, and right temporal region. Triple-lead silver ball polyvinyl chloride acetate-insulated electrodes were im- planted into the left anterior and left posterior septal region. The silver ball contact points were 0.5 mm in diameter, each 2 mm apart. Intracerebral cannulae were implanted into the septal region bilaterally and into the hippo- campus...

... only stimulation of the septal region resulted in a pleasurable experience, with stimulation of other sites being either neutral or aversive...

...A program involving both passive (other- induced) and self-stimulation of the septal region was begun the following day. A summary of the stimulation sessions is presented in Table 1. During and following the initial three periods of passive stimulation B-19 exhibited an improved mood, smiled frequently, stated that he could think fnore clearly, and reported a sense of generalized muscle relaxation. He likened these responses to the pleasurable states he had sought and experienced through the use of amphetamines. Moreover, he reported an associated state of sexual motivation.

Therefore, arrangements were made for a 21-year-old
prostitute to spend 2 hours with him in a laboratory
speically prepared to afford complete privacy. B-19
was receptive to the plan, and the woman agreed after
being apprised othe circumstances. On the afternoon of
their meeting, the patient's electrodes were attached
to the encephalograph via an extension cord for increased
mobility, and recordings were obtained for 45 min with
an interruption for delivery of passive stimulation of
e septal region for 20 secs.

Now there is some interesting lab research 8o
 
Would electroshock therapy qualify? It's non-surgical, 100% device controlled, and does not delivery any chemicals - however it obviously does influence chemical binding or release in the presynapse. This sort of thing has been around for ages and there are countless trial reports in psychinfo's database (if you have access to the website, you can find thousands of detailed, peer reviewed articles).
 
Would electroshock therapy qualify? It's non-surgical, 100% device controlled, and does not delivery any chemicals - however it obviously does influence chemical binding or release in the presynapse. This sort of thing has been around for ages and there are countless trial reports in psychinfo's database (if you have access to the website, you can find thousands of detailed, peer reviewed articles).

TMS seems more like the future of less intrusive therapies. It would be much more localized than ECT.
 
I`ve read a book once about patients that had electrodes attached to the pleasure center of the brain, and they were able to induce states of extreme euphoria (hyperphoria?). Actually, this was a book of ebola?`s, maybe he can chime in and help me out here.
 
Oh wow! Best of luck then. I would be interested to know how you go if you are happy to share.
 
there is no study

I have severe treatment resistant depression and a doctor I know is trying to set this up

A psychiatrist I saw in the past apparently offered this service. It was something like $10,000 per session though...
 
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