The 6-APB thread

[love_sex_desire]

Has the "substantially similar" clause been tested in court? If so, what does the apparent extent of this similarity imply?

It seems rather odd to me that Canada appears to have Customs providing a shadow law system where certain compounds are deemed "illegal" absent any real rationale. 6-APB illegal while bk-MDMA is not? Fine, if we consider it to fall under the cathinone umbrella, but repeated statements about mephedrone being illegal in Canada again seem to point to a less consistent rationale.

My point is simply that to state it is "illegal" is not correct, but a projected interpretation of a rather vague law that has not been decisively tested in court to my knowledge.

BK-MDMA should be considered illegal, as it IS an amphetamine anaolg of MDMA. But because cathinone is listed separate from amphetamines in the CDSA, it is a loophole, and cathinones have been intrerpreted as being exempt and have been tested and released from customs. Cathinone amphetamines are the ONLY amphetamines that are not caught under the Canadian amphetamine analog clause, specifically because the parent compound, "cathinone", is not listed as an amphetamine in the CDSA. There is no cathinone analog clause, and because cathinone is not listed as an amphetamine, it is unconstitutionally vague to consider a cathinone analog as illegal.

It is rather odd, and it is simply a loophole based on the way the CDSA is structured at the time being. The "substantially similar" clause has not been tested in court as far as I know, but customs has tested 6-APDB and confiscated it, claiming it is an illegal amphetamine analog of MDA. Based on the reasons customs has given for confiscating or releasing amphetamine analogs, it appears that an amphetamine analog must contain an amphetamine skeleton in it's structure, not simply a phenethylamine skeleton, but the analog is exempt if it is a cathinone amphetamine. The only reason cathinone amphetamines are exempt is because it would be unconstitutional to consider a cathinone to be an illegal amphetamine analog when cathinone is not even considered an amphetamine in the CDSA. The ambiguity of the law deems cathinones as constitutionally exempt. Since 6-APDB has an amphetamine skeleton within it's structure, and is not a cathinone, Canadian customs deemed 6-APDB to be an illegal amphetamine analog of MDA. Because Canadian customs considers 6-APDB to be an illegal amphetamine analog, then 6-APB would presumably be considered an illegal amphetmaine analog as well.

I know of only one instance where 6-APDB was confiscated by by customs, and I know of no instances where 6-APB has been confiscated or even analysized by customs, but cathinone amphetamines such as mephedrone and methylone have routinely been tested and released presumably based on the CDSA's structural loophole that does not consider cathinone to be an amphetamine. Very odd, but it is simply a loophole based on the structure of the CDSA.

I don't think legality is allowed in PD, but it is safe to say that 6-APB is most likely considred an illegal amphetamine analog in Canada, and cathinones should be considered illegal, but it would be rather easy to fight charges against cathinones based on the unconstitutionally vague structure of the CDSA. I don't think any court cases have set precedent, but based on customs allowing cathinones through, but not allowing 6-APDB through seems to indicate custom's interpretation of the amphetamine analog clause.

 

[annaminx]

Lol@ whoever posted the pill rage image. (My laptop has died I have to do this on mobile so can't get link)

Re: pill rage.

I can't do a formal trip report for the new 6-apb "slim" pellets as the experience had to many uncontrollable variables leading to bad mood. And too many chemicalls added to it to contain the effecs (a rapid "tranq" mix of sedatives anti psycotics and dissociatives) but noteworthy aspect was the rage I experienced was simililar to that caused by an aversive reaction to some ssri's which have famously been associated with homicides and suicides as a extreme side effect. Both 6-apb and ssri's etc work on similar neurotransmitters, it may be something to look out for in peoples experiences (the rage, not necessarily actual homicide) there could be a link

 

[MagickalKat777]

Looks like benzo fury may have been the right name after all LMAO!

 

[DwayneHoover]

l_s_d: With all due respect for your deep knowledge/expertise and your outstanding contributions/posts... I think you are misunderstanding (though your chem knowledge is vastly larger than mine) the "amphetamine" thing.

"Amphetamine" is a specific compound class with a specific definition... a definition that is NOT met by cathinones.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathinone

"Cathinone differs from amphetamine by possessing a ketone oxygen atom (C=O) on the β (beta) position of the side chain. The corresponding alcohol compound cathine is a less powerful stimulant."

i.e., Cathinones are by definition NOT amphetamines, due to the structural specifics of what is termed "amphetamine", though they are similar.

Hence the phrase "a cathinone amphetamine" is a self-contradictory oxymoron.

It makes sense to speak of "a cathinone stimulant", but there is no such thing as a "cathinone amphetamine." Two different things, by definition.

 

[love_sex_desire]

^ Cathinones are from the cathinone, amphetamine and phenethylamine class. They are amphetamines, but with further substitutions on top of the amphetamine structure. They have the amphetamine skeleton within their structure, so they are considered part of the amphetamine class. 6-APB has an amphetamine skeloton with a benzofuran ring, but does not have any further substitutions on the amphetamine skeleton, so 6-APB is part of the amphetamine and phenethylamine classes, but cathinones are still considered part of the amphetamine class as well as the cathinone and phenethylamine classes.

It says that cathinone differs from amphetamine by posessing a ketone oxygen atom. This means the parent compound cathinone is different from the parent compound amphetamine, but cathinone is still part of the broad class of amphetamines that all have an amphetamine skeleton within their structure. Cathinone simply has a further substitution that makes it different than amphetamine. Cathinone is also called β-Ketoamphetamine, pronounced as beta-ketone-amphetamine, or BK-amphetamine. Cathinone is a substituted amphetamine, so although cathinone is different than amphetamine, it is still a type of amphetamine with further substitutions. Check out the wiki link for substituted amphetamines with a list of many compounds in the amphetamine class:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substituted_amphetamine

All cathinones are substituted amphetamines, but all cathinones with a cathinone skeleton with further substitutions are also considered subsituted cathinones. They are all part of the cathinone, amphetamine and phenethylamine clases. Phenethylamine is the simplest, with amphetamine having a further methyl atom on the alpha position and cathinones have an even further substitution of an oxygen on the beta postion on top of the amphetamine structure.

It seems you are confusing the parent compount amphetamine with the amphetamine class of drugs. Yes, cathinone is different than amphetamine, but it is still a type of amphetamine.

Cathinone amphetamines is not a self-contradictory statement, but is a redundant statement as all cathinones are amphetamines, even though the parent compound cathinone is different than the parent compound amphetamine by having further substitutions on top of the amphetamine structure. Cathinone is simply amphetamine with an added substitution, so it is more complex than amphetamine.

 

[any major dude]

nomenclature's a bugger eh?

 

[love_sex_desire]

^ I understand where you disagree with me though. It seems you simply mistook the parent compound amphetamine for the class of drugs called "amphetamines". I agree that cathinone is different than amphetamine, but it is still a type of amphetamine. It can be confusing with parent compounds and substituted compounds, and I must admit all of my chemistry knowledge is from bluelight and chemical structures

 

[love_sex_desire]

This makes me wonder what the cathinone version of 6-APB would be like. I'm speculating it would have to be considered legal in Canada! Also BK-MDA. I wonder why that one was never pursued?

I guess it would be called BK-6-APB? Somehow I don't think that is correct as 6-APB follows such a different naming nomenclature compared to MDA. I always wondered why 6-APB has such a different abbreviation compared to MDA. Is there an alternative abbreviation for 6-APB that follows the abbreviation of MDA more closely?

Although most cathinones are not as good as their amphetamine counterparts, i.e BK-MDMA compared to MDMA, but it would get around Canadian amphetamine laws!

Someone make up some BK-MDA and the beta-ketone version of 6-APB for the Canadian market. Why not the beta-ketone version of 6-APDB while you're at it?

 

[DwayneHoover]

l.s.d., you are my most favoritest chemistry professor, ever!

 

[any major dude]

This makes me wonder what the cathinone version of 6-APB would be like. I'm speculating it would have to be considered legal in Canada! Also BK-MDA. I wonder why that one was never pursued?

I guess it would be called BK-6-APB? Somehow I don't think that is correct as 6-APB follows such a different naming nomenclature compared to MDA. I always wondered why 6-APB has such a different abbreviation compared to MDA. Is there an alternative abbreviation for 6-APB that follows the abbreviation of MDA more closely?

Although most cathinones are not as good as their amphetamine counterparts, i.e BK-MDMA compared to MDMA, but it would get around Canadian amphetamine laws!

Someone make up some BK-MDA and the beta-ketone version of 6-APB for the Canadian market. Why not the beta-ketone version of 6-APDB while you're at it?

I'd be interested as to the effects of the bk-6-APB as well. I'd imagine it would be less potent, as cathinones seem to have some trouble crossing the BBB, hence the high doses for most of them. As for bk-MDA, it has been studied, but never really widely available AFAIK. There was some speculation that it may be unstable, but I dunno if this was ever substantiated. I'd still like to give that one a try. Wonder if anyone's working on bk-6-APDB. Think that might be more interesting, and technically legal in Canada. I'll post the link to the bk-MDA stuff if i can find it.

Also, I think the 6-APB nomenclature was chosen to appear dissimilar from MDA. One of the proposed names for b**** f*** (the name we shall not speak!) when it was still 6-APDB was 4-desoxy-MDA. Naming these things is always going to be at least somewhat arbitrary

EDIT: Here's the link to the 3,4 Methylenedioxy Cathinone thread. There's a link to another archived thread on the subject as well.

 

[chasing_s]

I guess the beta-ketone version of 6-APB probably could be 6-amino propanone benzofuran.

6-apdb already got the 4-desoxy-MDA name.

wouldn't BK-MDA / MD Cathinone suffer from the same problem as cathinone and it would breakdown to MD norpseudoephedrine? I believe The N-Methyl stabilises cathinone.

 

[any major dude]

the salt would most likely be stable, but as a freebase & during synthesis it may possibly dimerize resulting in undesirable adulterants.

 

[solistus]

You didn't do your research well enough! Throw the rest of it away because it is probably lethal.

There is only 1 so called legit powder the rest are dodgy mixtures of dangerous chems.

I can't believe some people are still being conned, it doesn't take much to do research and find the real stuff.For a harm reduction site you are causing a lot of confusion. I understand completely why you ban vendor talk but its not helping 'Harm Reduction'.

Allowing vendor discussion would get us shut down by the authorities so fast it would make your head spin - this site is very high profile and you can bet yer ass there are law enforcement agencies that would jump on any opportunity to shut the site down or at least drag it into a lengthy and costly court battle to defend its right to exist. Plus, if we started allowing that and shady vendors infiltrated BL to spread false information, that would make things even worse. There would be MUCH more incentive to spread bad info of this sort than bad info about drugs and harms reduction methods in general, obviously, since there's money changing hands.

If people choose to do unsafe things despite all the advice we give them, that's not BL creating confusion. That's people being reckless of their own free will. Anyone who reads our terms of use, or this thread for that matter, should know our stance on vendors and also the importance of having reliable sources. If you want to discuss safety precautions people should take with a new supply of supposedly 6-APB to minimize the potential harms if it's something else, that would be great. What we can't do is direct people to 'trusted' vendors.

 

[solistus]

l.s.d., you are my most favoritest chemistry professor, ever!

My 'drug buddies' and I often joke about how we wish we had paid more attention in chemistry class - if they had only put things in the context of psychoactive drugs I would have had a reason to care! I've had to build a working knowledge of organic chemistry based on drug discussion over a very flimsy foundation from high school.

The amphetamine thing is hella confusing - there's a world of difference between "amphetamine" (a specific compound) and "an amphetamine" (any compound that includes a certain 'backbone' structure, including amphetamine itself). So you can end up with statements like "Cathinone is an amphetamine that differs from amphetamine by the beta ketone..."

Everybody's favorite topics colliding: organic chemistry and grammar. Fucking indefinite articles, how do they work?

 

[pk5000]

I finally tried some of the first official batch of pellets...did 1.5, crushed on an empty stomach...

It definitely "fucked me up" but lacked any euphoria (my SO had the same experience)

Main effects: mild visual distortion, wobbly legs and eyes, slight musical appreciation enhancement, massive gurning....and that's it. Glad I was home for the experience, this does not feel like a party/club drug at all.

Long trip short: I did not like it, felt it was way too expensive for the lack of euphoria.

The next several days were not good...slow, long come down, and basically shitty feelings. I will not be doing this again.

The fact that so many people are comparing this to MDMA makes me wonder what the fuck people have been eating that was claimed to be MDMA?

very disappointing....

 

[Xamkou]

The fact that so many people are comparing this to MDMA makes me wonder what the fuck people have been eating that was claimed to be MDMA?

very disappointing....

Did it ever occur to you that maybe what you ingested was just bunk shite? I have taken 6-APB four times and fucking loved it. Massive amounts of euphoria, body rushes, tingles and empathy.

 

[pk5000]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe what you ingested was just bunk shite? I have taken 6-APB four times and fucking loved it. Massive amounts of euphoria, body rushes, tingles and empathy.

of course! but this was the "official pellets" so without shelling out hundreds to test it, and after reading plenty of reports, it seemed legit. (who knows)

did you do pellets or did you get some of the powder samples?

mentally I was prepared to love it, was in the proper setting, etc.

Just not for me.....if I had the time you did, I would have been happy, obviously.

Are you saying you compare it favorably to MDMA?

 

[ashtray girl]

I've tried 6-APB a few times (and it was 'official') and whilst I thought it was alright it wasn't a patch on MDMA. I'd consider it a "backup" if it was a fifth of the price it is. As the situation stands I can get better substances for less money.

 

[phillyx]

This was exactly my experience of taking 1 of the first official batch. Though I had extreme visual distortion and couldn't stand up for 4 hours.
The thought of getting fucked like that in a club and getting tossed on the street by a bouncer means I won't be doing it again. (I only use drugs for clubbing).

I finally tried some of the first official batch of pellets...did 1.5, crushed on an empty stomach...

It definitely "fucked me up" but lacked any euphoria (my SO had the same experience)

Main effects: mild visual distortion, wobbly legs and eyes, slight musical appreciation enhancement, massive gurning....and that's it. Glad I was home for the experience, this does not feel like a party/club drug at all.

Long trip short: I did not like it, felt it was way too expensive for the lack of euphoria.

The next several days were not good...slow, long come down, and basically shitty feelings. I will not be doing this again.

The fact that so many people are comparing this to MDMA makes me wonder what the fuck people have been eating that was claimed to be MDMA?

very disappointing....

 

[Mullered]

pk5000's report doesnt sound too different to my experiences with official samples before the pellets came out. It got me totally trashed and had the physical attributes of MDMA like intense gurning and eye wiggles but I felt very little euphoria or empathy.

I had 3 different samples of 3 different official distributors and apart from intensity, which was down to differences in dosage the effects were pretty much the same.

It was enjoyable to a certain degree, I liked the way it lasted a long time and there wasnt a need to top up but Im in no rush to do it again