THC Isomerization & THC Acetate

[MurphyClox]

@Provoke & Turing Machine:
SAR depends on size, shape AND electronic properties of a substance resp. class of substance. All these are of importance. So you are both right in this respect.

Nonetheless is THC-acetate very likely to be 'just' a prodrug to common THC. Esters are usally quite unstable in vivo. I don't know of any definite evidence for this though, nor of any that points at any intrinsic activity of THC-acetate. It's much of a speculation here, albeit an educated one


- Murphy

 

[Turing Machine]

Is it the CBD that produces that quality high of indian/nepalese hash?

All exported nepalese hash is produced by westerners close to the indian border, mostly sieved and produced with wide leafed varieties not native to Nepal. There's no CBD to be found in any of it. Even in the wild plants I've collected and tested, I'd say about <1% of the wild stands have any Bd alleles.

Indian and Nepalese hashish is a huge category which is very difficult to make any generalizations about including effect. However, it is safe to say that if you're smoking even the finest exported hashish, it's poorly crafted and produced with garbage wide leafed seeds brought by westerners and not crafted with the same level of pride and heirloom techniques and genetics that it used to be.

 

[stormyweathers]

CBD is definitely present in current weed.
it helps balance out the high by reducing the bad side effects (paranoia etc) of too much THC.

why would you even travel the world sampling pot seeds?
how did you test them?

 

[Turing Machine]

CBD is definitely present in current weed.
it helps balance out the high by reducing the bad side effects (paranoia etc) of too much THC.

why would you even travel the world sampling pot seeds?
how did you test them?

No, CBD is not present in "current weed" in more than trace amounts. As I stated before, and I do not like to repeat myself. In order for CBD to be present in more than minute quantities, there needs to be an allele which reduces the THC production by roughly half in homozygous samples and > 92-95% in heterozygous samples, replacing it with CBD which itself blocks the psychoactive effects of THC. Breeding for a high CBD chemotype is the crucial step in how low THC UNODCP approved hemp cultivars are produced.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1462421/pdf/12586720.pdf

The effects you associate with CBD are in actuality caused by either non-cannabinoid terpenes combined with CBN and THC or placebo effects. Beta-caryophyllene is one such terpene found in sometimes large quantities which acts as a cb2 receptor agonist.

I don't wish to give out personal information of forums and I shouldn't have to give out my qualifications when simply repeating uncontroversial truthful basic information. This is my area of study and the field in which I work. I currently have access to unlimited use of an offsite HPLC lab and operator and will have an onsite GC/MS by the end of the year. Cannabis seed from specific regions of Asia which possess the ability to produce rare and unusual terpenes and cannabinoids (almost always seem to be found in nonpsychoactive cultivars, always found strictly in Asia and in areas with no export cannabis trade) is an extremely important resource in my field of work.

why would you even travel the world sampling pot seeds?

I don't trivialize whatever you do for a living, so please don't trivialize what I do. I've ingested pure CBD while in the EU. It has no psychoactive effect whatsoever. Yes, it is supposed to have an anxiolytic effect comparable to diazepam, but unlike diazepam it is not actually psychoactive.

If you're going to post something like this, please show some evidence of this, preferably from a reliable source.

 

[poundsD]

hey yeah guys, back to the original question;
someone i know regularly distills amounts of bc trim oil.
without any real knowledge, the fractions have been labelled

1:scented fraction (biterpenes?)120-150C {5-15%}runny yellow liquid oil
2:thc 155-170C {45-70%}yellow oil
3:cbds and other assorted cnbnoids. {30-50%} heavy orange/red oil/glass

a lc readout of the fractions was seen once;
the first fraction was a series of many small spikes
the second was mainly one large spike with some background chatter
and the third was several larger spikes and some smaller ones.
i think; that was quite a while ago.

anyways, the thc and the cbds being separated, the 50% potency issue becomes a moot point and and the search for good isomerisation methods begins.

now the patent with the p-toluenesulfonic acid states high yields, but everybody else is just refluxing plant matter.
now we're out in the boonies, and you cant buy p-toluenesulfonic at the hardware store can you?
i know p-toluenesulfonic hydrates to sulphuric acid and toluene, does that mean that the reverse happens in mildly anhydrous conditions,, and the results from the patent can be applied to the standard methods using h2s04?
there are also rumours that weaker acids than sulfuric can be used;
maybe hcl, or hbr?????
might the strength of the acid affect ratios of delta 8 to delta 9 in the product.??
toluene is nasty lameness.
does alcohol work?
what about dcm? that would keep the temp down, might be nice, might go well with hcl?
has anybody tried refluxing it in the microwave? would that be more gentle?
is anybody out there actually doing this shit??
any advice? ideas?

and; a question for the big boys: POLIMERIZATION?
the red glassyness of the cbd oil indicates a degree of polimerization; will isomerisation reaction cleave these bonds or just continue the polimerizing trends?

 

[Solipsis]

What gives you the idea of polymerization? If it's only the red glassiness, remember that budder is also very waxy, your fraction my just be that kind of a substance...

I personally isomerized with concentrated sulfuric acid, I did not care much for the result because normal hash oil gets me beyond high already. It's just this totally acute high feeling approaching something like LSD but also a little bit like opium and it is pretty easy to overdose on the stuff.
I felt potentiation from the isomerization but it felt like too much, overkill.

 

[starch1ld]

Hello Thc acetate connoisseurs, you seem to be a very knowledgeable when it comes to thc chemistry and so i would just like to know if you would be willing to answer a few questions that I had regarding thc acetate production for someone who is passionate about this stuff and is willing to learn.

Ive done all kinds of hash, oils, waxes, budders and experimented with many strains and methods but I have recently found out that you can basically double your thc if you turn it into acetate, making a more spiritual/ psychadelic high. I would love to know more about it !

The forum wont let me message you directly so this is my only way of trying lol

email is [email protected] if you wanna help me out thanks :D

p.s. have 2 years of legit university lab experience under my belt so I'm actually capable of

A) getting proper lab equipment/substances
B) understanding the actual chemistry.

 

[Hyperthesis]

...this can't be true...






What has become of this great forum?

 

[mgrady3]

starch1ld:
if you actually read the thread, a number of people with a great knowledge of chemistry have stated that thc acetate will most likely act as a prodrug for regular thc. So, I'm not sure how you figure acetylation is going to "double" your thc, especially when you factor in losses due to inefficiency.


you could perhaps, as stated earlier, take some mid grade weed, and make it into some decent oil, but you aren't going to magically make more thc appear.

 

[Solipsis]

The old ester discussion is it? 4-AcO-DMT is for many people subjectively different from mushrooms (though they contain a mix of alkaloids), heroin is also deacetylated / condensed into morphine... yet they seem to be different. Pharmacokinetics can be different and the parent ester like the acetyls can have activity themselves, they may be able to help it cross the BBB though I am not all too sure an ester is more lipophilic than an alcohol... and THC is pretty lipophilic itself already.
Thus I am not (yet) convinced that even if these esters are pro-drugs, that it would mean it's all totally pointless.

Copied from another board:

Cannabis Alchemy:
THC acetate has twice the potency of THC. On the adams scale THC 7.3, while its acetate is 14.6. Furthermore, there is a 25% increase in weight after adding the acetate structure. The effect of the acetate is more spiritual and psychedelic than that of the ordinary product. The most unique preoperty of this material is that there is a delay of about thirty minutes before its effects are felt.

The adams scale, developed by Dr. Roger Adams, the first person to identify CBD and CBN defines a cannabinoid as a drug that reduced pain and body temperature, and induced spontaneous activity in low doses and catalepsy at high doses in test animals.

Psycoactivity can only be determined from a human observers point of view, as Alexander Shulgin believes, so do I, animal testing should only be done to determine a chemicals toxicity.

THC acetate is known to be strognly psycoactive, the CIA researched this chemical in their search for an interogation aid. It was found to be more psycoactive than THC alone and was coined "TD" for Truth Drug. There have been many independant studies aswell but the MK ULTRA studies are the most notable.

You are correct in your statment that adding weight to a molecule doesnt necessarily make it better, in this scenario, it does. The additional weight the acetyl group adds is not psycoactive itself but its presence allows THC twice the efficency to cross the blood-brain barrier.
Though it weighs more and that does account for a lose in potency, since its original weight basically doubles in potency the end result has a higher value.
One gram of THC would convert into approx 1.25g of THC acetate but it would have the efficency of approx two grams of THC.
Unlike heroin (for some reason) its metabolism in the body is not increased but actually decreased, heroin hits with more efficency and faster than morphine, THC itself reaches the brain quicker,it hits hard, but much is lost quickly,THC acetate has a longer length of action and more THC can reach the brain, less THC is wasted, more is used, it all depends on the amount taken.

Is this nonsense?

 

[Hyperthesis]

^Some parts are certainly nonsense. For example:

1. The molecular weight of THC is 314.46, that of THC-acetate 356.30. Hence, the weight increases only by ca. 13%. One gram THC converts into 1130 mg THC acetate, provided that the yield of the conversion step is 100%.

2. We've already seen extraordinarily potent cannabinoids in action, like many of the AAIs. I think it is general consensus that they aren't exactly "truth drugs", doesn't matter how potent or (partial)agonistic a compound behaved.

3. The above quote states that "THC reaches the brain quicker", while at the same time it it supposed to have "twice the efficency to cross the blood-brain barrier". I see a contradiction here.

4. Although I can not back it up with appropriate data, I have the feeling that "twice the efficency to cross the blood-brain barrier" for THC acetate is a bit too much to be true. The (calculated) logP-values of both compounds are extremely similar and even Mechoulam already reported that the acetylated derivative only showed a lagged onset of effects but retained more or less the potency of the parent compound (Arzneimittel-Forschung (1972), 22(11), 1995-2003).

 

[eye8onetwo]

Ive extracted and isomerized water washed chromatographed oil resulting in a beautiful thick amber red oil followed by acetalting a couple oz. After water washing away(pull with pet ether) the acetic anahydride I had a yellowy orangy ambery oil plus a gain of aprox 20% after smoking very little oil in an oil pipe I drove through the Berkely tunnel trippin like Id took a hit of acid I couldntbh

 

[eye8onetwo]

The oil had lightened up in color and lost the translucentness of the amber red oil, sort of fogged it up. It incredible that hallucenagenic oil that potentqàame from shake leaves