The Big & Dandy Ego Death Thread

[tBirdee]

^no you are

 

[love_sex_desire]

I've experienced a state of bliss on psychedelics many times. If it's a shulgin ++++ state you're referring to then I've had that. I've just never lost my memory, conscious mind and been completely physically paralysed.

A state of bliss is only a part of the ++++ experience. Experiencing the inner and outer universe in a state of union is also a part of the ++++ experience. When you experience both the inner and outer universe, you no longer experience your ego, you experience Supreme Reality.

One thing that doesn't add up - people are claiming they lose their memory, their conscious mind and "ego" and yet they are able to recall what happened to them - which obviously means their memory, conscious mind and ego were all in perfect working order.

I can't remember every part of my ego-death experience, but to say that people say they lose all memory of the experience is not true. You don't lose consciousness, your consciousness is on a different level of awareness. You are making wild generalizations again and again.

This is nothing to do with this thread at all is it - it's because you're still holding a grudge from when I wouldn't agree with you in that thread in EADD a few months ago. Try and get over it - don't live your life holding grudges just because someone doesn't agree with you. It's incredibly stupid.

Calling someone's experience a brainfart is incredibly stupid. To try and discredit Swillow by suggesting Swillow thinks they're more special than everyone else is rude and not even close to being true. Many people have experienced this phenomenon, not just, as you've labelled, the "special" Swillow. Swillow has every right to be pissed at your ramblings about him/her.


I agree that debate is a good thing, but you have a predetermined agenda that you are trying to prove, against any evidence that supports otherwise. Just like the UK government who sacked their drug czar who showed scientific evidence against their predetermined drug agenda. It's fake and a waste of time, as Swillow suggested.

 

[Ismene]

I can't remember every part of my ego-death experience, but to say that people say they lose all memory of the experience is not true.

That isn't what I said. It's not even close. God knows where you got that from.

Try and respond to what I actually say rather than what you imagine I'm saying.

 

[love_sex_desire]

people are claiming they lose their memory, their conscious mind and "ego" and yet they are able to recall what happened to them - which obviously means their memory, conscious mind and ego were all in perfect working order.

You said people claim they lose their memory. Where did I interpret wrong? How is that not even close to what you said? God knows I got that quote directly from you. The whole basis of your argument was that people claim to lose their memory yet recall what happened to them. I said it is incorrect to say that people lose all memory of the experience. Nothing was interpreted wrong, again you are trying to defend yourself, but in the process you are not making sense.
If you didn't mean to say that people claim to lose their memory yet recall wat happened what the hell were you trying to say?
You also mentioned that people lose their conscious mind and ego. I said that you don't lose consciousness but your consciousness is on a different level of awareness.

Why must we repeat ourselves?!?!? Does anyone else think this thread is losing all worth from Ismene who obviously has no interest or experience with ego-death, other than his predetermined agenda to try and prove something subjective that he has never experienced wrong? It's a never-ending battle, because you can't prove something subjective wrong. The same things are being repeated over and over again. I would suggest Ismene, if you have no interest in this topic, other than to prove it wrong, which you will never be able to do because it is a subjective experience that can't be quantified or scientifically measured to be proven wrong, that you get a life rather than arguing in circles on a forum over and over again. I'm sure people would like to get back to discussing their subjective experiences with ego-death and comparing their ideas of ego-death, rather than defending the thought that the concept even exists in circles around, and around, and around, and around, and around, and god-fucking-damnit-I'm-trying-really-hard-not-to-be-annoyed-by-some-fucking-poster-on-the-fucking-internet, and around, and around, and around........

I think we would all apreciate it if you let us get back to discussing our thoughts on ego-death, rather than arguing whether it exists.
Anyone else agree?

 

[Delsyd]

One thing that doesn't add up - people are claiming they lose their memory, their conscious mind and "ego" and yet they are able to recall what happened to them - which obviously means their memory, conscious mind and ego were all in perfect working order.

IME i lost memory of who i was, what i was, and what "I" is.

I have full memory of the experience.
My brain was still working.

I just didnt have an ego to filter the information and put biases on the experience.

 

[adrian89987]

Like is this all a joke to see how much ego all of us currently have??

 

[Delsyd]

yes

 

[Shakti]

Ain't nothin wrong with ego. Only ego can hate on ego. Transcending ego does not require destroying it. Peoples' misconception of the term ego is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Many people consider ego inherently 'bad' somehow. I think because people are more used to the term egotistical. Ego is just the individuated self. You are ego. I am ego. Just how it is.

 

[malakaix]

Ain't nothin wrong with ego. Only ego can hate on ego. Transcending ego does not require destroying it. Peoples' misconception of the term ego is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Many people consider ego inherently 'bad' somehow. I think because people are more used to the term egotistical. Ego is just the individuated self. You are ego. I am ego. Just how it is.

Agree, to many people associate 'ego' with 'bad' or 'evil'. Ego is You, without it.. you don't exist as an individuality.

I also cant for the life of me understand why people in this thread cannot just accept other peoples experiences for what they are. Just let it be, if you don't believe you've experienced what people would refer to as ego-death there's no need to discredit there experience and try point out the technical flaws in there description of it, it's all perspective in the end.

 

[adrian89987]

Ain't nothin wrong with ego. Only ego can hate on ego. Transcending ego does not require destroying it. Peoples' misconception of the term ego is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Many people consider ego inherently 'bad' somehow. I think because people are more used to the term egotistical. Ego is just the individuated self. You are ego. I am ego. Just how it is.

lol yes yes, I was just making a joke

 

[Shakti]

I know. Your joke just got me thinkin is all.

 

[Ismene]

You said people claim they lose their memory. Where did I interpret wrong? How is that not even close to what you said?

You said "but to say that people say they lose all memory of the experience is not true"

I have never said this. I have never come close to saying this. You completely missed the point.

Let me try and explain it more simply for you.

You have repeatedly claimed that when you are in this state you cannot remember your own name, you cannot even remember that you have taken a drug - which is a clear indication that your memory cannot be functioning.

And yet at the same time you are able to describe in detail everything that happened to you while in this state - so your memory must be in perfect working order.

Can you see the problem? How can you be experiencing and remembering something when you have no memory or "ego" to experience it with?

 

[Ismene]

IME i lost memory of who i was, what i was, and what "I" is.

I have full memory of the experience.

Surely if you have full memory of the experience then your conscious mind is fully in control and your memory is working as usual?

Is memory seperate from the ego?

 

[B9]

Has anyone read "LSD my problem child" by Albert Hoffman ? I haven't but I've read bits of it some of which may be pertinent to this debate

 

[swilow]

^If you mean the section where A.H describes having a fully working memory during LSD peak-experience?

Surely if you have full memory of the experience then your conscious mind is fully in control and your memory is working as usual?

Is memory seperate from the ego?

Yes, ego is like a filter, memory is like a recording system. Our ego's impart some colour onto our memories, and vice-versa.

Swillow has every right to be pissed at your ramblings about him/her.

I think I'm a HE but B9 might disagree I'm actually not pissed offf, I am kinda used to arguing with Ismean- its just frustrating that he acts clever and superior all the tme, and pretty much alway has . Moreover, I'm pretty sure that he's "lost" the argument, as he has not experienced ths state and therefore can't comment on it legitamately. Its like me describing the view from the top of Mount Everest; utterly useless as I've never been there.

Mate, your need to descend into insults is a weakness that you need to overcome.

Pot-kettle=black. Try again buddy Your need to judge and provoke is an illness you need cured....8)

Lve and let live eh?

Like is this all a joke to see how much ego all of us currently have??

The last few pages are the best examples of egoic behaviour I can think of, and I include me there for sure :D

 

[B9]

^If you mean the section where A.H describes having a fully working memory during LSD peak-experience?



Yes, ego is like a filter, memory is like a recording system. Our ego's impart some colour onto our memories, and vice-versa.



I think I'm a HE but B9 might disagree

Ha de ha swilow sweetheart :D - yes i was referring to the peak experience as described by AH & I believe some bigshot psychotherapist also domiciled in Switzerland.


I think all the people who think Ismene ought to do in more drugs to "experience enlightenment" are barking up the wrong tree. :D

 

[love_sex_desire]

Drug-induced ego death is a type of breakthrough experience--a sudden and radical qualitative shift in experience distinct from the type of experience that preceded it. Ego dissolution typically precedes ego death, and can vary by degree, which is what makes it different.

Take another type of breakthrough experience like identity substitution on salvia, for example (think of all the reports where trippers believe they are other people or things, or themselves at an earlier age). A vivid reliving of a childhood memory is to an experience of identity substitution where one actually believes they are themselves as a child as ego dissolution is to ego death. The experience of full immersion in a hallucinatory landscape of 3D forms holds a similar relationship with the abrupt and short-lived experience of extra-spatial perception sometimes reported on DMT. In some ways ego death is an extension of ego dissolution in a similar way to believing you are yourself as a child is an extension of a vivid reliving of a childhood memory as your adult self where it's "almost like you were there." But it's also its own distinct and unmistakeable experience.

All the arguing over semantics in this thread is a strong indication that ego death is a misleading term, though. Both words are so weighted. I don't know, what about "self blackout"? I'm certain there's better terms, but any alternate terminology should capture the fact that the self infrastructure remains (it's not destroyed and gone, or fragmented, or just figuratively low on power like during ego dissolution), but no engaged awareness or sense of self efficacy is running through it.

I think the confusion leading to some of our ego's incessant bickering may be because of the inadequate wording of "ego-death". I prefer to consider it ego-dissolution but psood0nym pointed out that they are separate and there are differing degrees of ego-dissolution which ego-death is an extension of, and sometimes the culmination of. I'd like to think that the term "total ego-dissolution" or "complete ego-disintegration" conveys the meaning of ego-death, while still implying there are differing degrees of ego dissolution. But "total" and "complete" might carry the same inadequacies of "death" when referring to something that is temporary. Maybe the terminology isn't what is important? I dunno...

Does anyone have any thoughts for a better term for the experience?

 

[swilow]

^Really, we could just say "psychedelic" or "self-emergence" as opposed to concentratng on what has GONE (ie. ego) and concentrating instead on whats there in its place. Whch is really: the Mind, free of personification. "Conciousness-emergence" could be used. But we do currently use the tem ego-death largely as a lend from buddhism, via Tm Leary. It makes sense when not examined from a sematic point of view.

I think all the people who think Ismene ought to do in more drugs to "experience enlightenment" are barking up the wrong tree. :D

Well, I certaninly don't thnk an ego-death/dissolution experience automatically mean enlightenment; in fct, I would say that whatever "enlightenment" is, is probablly attained through means besides drugs. Most "enlghtened" psychonauts often seem relatively head-fucked, but thats more perspective :D

I don't think Ismene needs to do more drugs, but I would love to hear him comment after inhaling 150mg's of DPT.

 

[puckboy]

its just frustrating that he acts clever and superior all the tme, and pretty much alway has

Off-topic: Nothing makes me cringe and leave a bad taste in my mouth more then psychedelic users who feel a sense of elitism and act in such a fashion 8)

On topic: Regarding the memory thing, it's not as if you have no memory of it like you would after getting blind drunk and/or eating a bunch of benzos. It's like your consciousness is transported to a void with no recollection of how or why the 'now' is occurring.

 

[psood0nym]

^Really, we could just say "psychedelic" or "self-emergence" as opposed to concentratng on what has GONE (ie. ego) and concentrating instead on whats there in its place. Whch is really: the Mind, free of personification. "Conciousness-emergence" could be used. But we do currently use the tem ego-death largely as a lend from buddhism, via Tm Leary. It makes sense when not examined from a sematic point of view.

But both terms it consists of are heavily loaded in the West. 'Ego' for its Freudian and negative egotistical associations (as mentioned previously) and 'death' for its finality, among other things. "Consciousness-emergence" sounds additive, like, "my usual self with greater awareness"; even if "ego death" makes sense from one perspective, isn't the perspective that matters most in regard to deciding on terminology the perspective of those who have not yet experienced it?

Well, I certaninly don't thnk an ego-death/dissolution experience automatically mean enlightenment; in fct, I would say that whatever "enlightenment" is, is probablly attained through means besides drugs. Most "enlghtened" psychonauts often seem relatively head-fucked, but thats more perspective :D

I agree, though I do believe psychedelics would nevertheless make powerful and genuinely advantageous tools for a serious and committed meditator, even if they are rarely used that way in practice. I suspect that drug-induced ego death and a lifelong meditator's experience of enlightenment are very similar experientially and metaphysically, it's just that the lifelong meditator has, through years of focused self-discipline, neuroplastically altered the structure of their mind such that they are able to recall or maintain the experience permanently (which, of course, is a huge difference).