Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ and Megathread v.1; 2007 - 2010

[maxlateralus]

thank you for your input. boxcutter: Did you use suboxone or subutex?? Just curious as to rather or not you think the naloxone in the suboxone (if that is what you took) played a role in you being sick. I keep doing research on the internet and I am finding info that contradicts each other. Some people say that the suboxone with the naloxone is why people get sick. Others say that it's the buprenorphine that is what is making people sick. I am so confused.

So, you are suggesting that I use something else before I make the switch?? The Dr told me that he would be ok with giving me several weeks worth of oxycodone before making the switch to subutex so that the methadone will have time to get out of my system. Do you think that will help and be better than making the switch directly? THanks again.

 

[Syd_Barret]

On suboxone will I go into precipitated W/d?

Ok, I just got a script (again, *sigh) for suboxone.

I took 2mgs this morning, maybe even slightly less.. 1.5 maybe.

I didn't feel any w/ds from that. Now, I did heroin a few horus later.. got fairly lifted.. I'm still feeling slightly buzzed right now, hours later.

Now, when its time to take my dose again in about 5 hours, will I go into precipitated w/ds or not?

My confusion begins because I know that if I still have heroin hanging out in my receptors before I dose my first suboxone dose starting on a maintenance program, the suboxone will push out the heroin and replace the dope with itself (the suboxone) leading to w/ds.
But since I took 2mgs this morning.. and THEN got high on heroin, can I just go ahead and resume regular dosing?

Suboxone is such a tricky little substance.
I've induced w/ds in myself once on suboxone before.. and holy crap it was not fun. I hope to never do this again.

Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Thank you.


Oh yeah, and normally, I'd just go better safe than sorry, and just wait until I was feeling the sickness coming on a little, the beginning of it, but my dad is dosing me for the first few weeks, just to make sure I do indeed take it. So, not taking the dose at 5am tomorrow is an option, but it will upset him.

So if I can get an answer before then, thatd be awesome. Cause if I know that I can take the dose without going through w/ds, thatd be the best case scenario.
Oh yeah, and the theoretical suboxone dose that I'll be taking tomorrow will be 4mgs if that makes a difference, which I think it would.

Gracias.

 

[Abbath]

No, if you didn't withdraw before, you wont now. You wont have created dependence from one heroin dose.

 

[pallidamors]

you did heroin after suboxone? after suboxone, you wont get precipitated w/ds. were it the other way around, maybe, yeah.

 

[Cyb]

I think what he means is, can one perform as such: T+0:00 - Dose Suboxone 2.0mg
T+2:00 - Dose unit of Heroin
T+7:00 - Dose Suboxone 2.0mg
Without experiencing precipitated withdrawal at the 7h mark.

All I can say from experience is, when I do things similar to this, I definately don't have to wait until I am completely sick before I redose on my suboxone, after coming down off of a rec. opiate. Never was I still high, though, when I redosed on the Suboxone.

 

[Abbath]

Yes, he can. Precipitated withdrawal will only occur if you're dependent on an agonist in the first place, so if he doses suboxone at T+0:00 and doesn't experience precipitated withdrawal, then he surely wont experience it later on that day, since he wont form that dependence in a short period like that.

 

[Deadhead420]

^^
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought it was if you are dependent on opiate period, not necessarily a full agonist.

I'd play it safe if I were you. Maybe just pretend to take it in front of your dad and then spit it out and take it later.

 

[Syd_Barret]

No, if you didn't withdraw before, you wont now. You wont have created dependence from one heroin dose.

Hrmm.


Maybe I need to clarify a few things.

I was dependent on heroin, thats why I started the suboxone in the first place.

So, this morning, I took 2mgs (roughly) of suboxone, and did not experience any precipitated w/ds.
A few hours after taking my sub dose, I did some heroin, and I got high. I was still buzzed slightly, even just 2 hours ago now. Although, only a slight buzz.
Now, I'm going to be taking my sub dose again (in theory) in about 4 hours time.

I know that one time use of heroin does not create physical dependence.. thats not the issue though, the issue is that suboxone acts as a partial agonist.
Theoretically, I have heroin molecules still occupying some of my receptor sites, at least one would think because just very recently, I was still feeling the buzz from the heroin.
So, I take my sub dose, it does what it does, which is push out any remaining heroin from my receptors and voila, I'm into precipitated w/ds.



I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm second guessing all you guys, cause.. well I am, I don't want to experience w/ds


But to all the people that have already given me a reply, reading what I just wrote, do you still agree with what you already said? That I will NOT experience precipitated w/ds?

Ok, thanks all for the speedy replies, cause I'll be dosing the sub soon.

And about spitting it out.. I'll prolly be able to do that.. depends on how well he decides to watch me.


**edit*
Reread one of the posts..
Ok, I'm still a little in the maybe zone here..
But I think I won't experience any w/ds...
HOwever, I'm still going to try and spit my dose out initially.. and maybe give it another 6 hours or so.. just to play it safe.

Also, the fact that I only took 2mgs this morning of suboxone has a little worried as well.
So for example, if I had taken 8mgs this morning, then did heroin.. and then was planning on doing another 8mgs of sub, I prolly wouldn't be as worried, if that makes any sense.
Because I'd be more confident that enough of the sub got through to prevent w/ds, and not the heroin.

Oh bupe, you are a tricky chemical.

 

[djsim]

And about spitting it out.. I'll prolly be able to do that.. depends on how well he decides to watch me.
.

If you are an opiate addict how does diverting bupe help you get away from the issue of dealing with life using opiates? If the half life is as long as it is, how can you justify spitting it out to use later when effedtively you're gonna be free from WDs either way? You'll only prolong addiction b/c you're not learning how to deal w/o opiates -- I know easier said than done, but IMO maybe you should just get outta the driver's seat and let someone else drive for awhile (so to speak) b/c clearly dosing opiates with willpower hasnt worked out

 

[Deadhead420]

Also, the fact that I only took 2mgs this morning of suboxone has a little worried as well.
So for example, if I had taken 8mgs this morning, then did heroin.. and then was planning on doing another 8mgs of sub, I prolly wouldn't be as worried, if that makes any sense.
Because I'd be more confident that enough of the sub got through to prevent w/ds, and not the heroin.

That doesn't make any sense to me... if you were to take 8mg, first of all you might not even feel anything off the H. Suboxone has a higher affinity to your receptors than most other opiates which is the reason why it can send you into precipitated w/d's. It also has the effect of blocking other opiates. While you can get away with dosing 2mg and then getting high off H, 8mg may block it completely and you won't feel anything from your normal dose of H. Also, the more sub you take, the bigger your chances of getting precipitated w'd and the worse they'll be.

 

[Jabberwocky]

merged

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I know what I am about to ask has prob been addressed, but I don't have the time to read through countless threads to try and find my answer. THis is my very first post - I just joined this thread a few mins ago.

I am at a crossroads...very scared. I have been on methadone for five years. I am currently taking 35mgs of liquid per day. I was prescribed subutex (NOT suboxone) today. I specifically asked the Dr. for subutex instead of suboxone b/c I read that the suboxone has the naloxone in it which I thought would be what would send me into immediate withdrawals.

I think that after reading a few threads here that the naloxone is NOT what would give me the withdrawals, but rather it is the buprenorphine itself that does this. Is this true?? Will the fact that I got subutex instead, to try and avoid the withdrawal scenario, not even matter??

Also, how long should I go without methadone before taking my first subutex??? The dr. told me to take 1/2 of the 8mg pill. He said I could start after waiting 24 hours from my last methadone dose. I read on here, it should be 3 days. He said 24 hours is enough b/c my methadone dose is not that high. I have read that it's easier to transition from methadone to oxycodone to subutex. My dr. is willing to do this too. SHould I go that route???

Also, If I start feeling withdrawal pains an hour after my first dose of subutex at 8am, would I be able to take more at that point or should I wait till the next day or later that afternoon???

Again, sorry for asking repetitve questions here. Just would like some info to make me feel more at ease. THank you very much!

Yeah, 35mg of methadone isn't a high dose, so you should be able to switch after 24 hours, or maybe a little longer if you can tough it out. You just want to be sure that the methadone is 100% out of your system.

But yes, buprenorphine is what causes precipitated WD, and not naloxone.

Methadone -> oxycodone -> subutex is an easier switch, and it would certainly be nice to have that stepping stone. You're very lucky if your doctor is willing to help you with that step, and I would definitely utilize it.

 

[Syd_Barret]

That doesn't make any sense to me... if you were to take 8mg, first of all you might not even feel anything off the H. Suboxone has a higher affinity to your receptors than most other opiates which is the reason why it can send you into precipitated w/d's. It also has the effect of blocking other opiates. While you can get away with dosing 2mg and then getting high off H, 8mg may block it completely and you won't feel anything from your normal dose of H. Also, the more sub you take, the bigger your chances of getting precipitated w'd and the worse they'll be.

I failed to mentioned that when i took my very first dose of sub, I had barely on heroin in my system.. I had only done a rinse shot the whole day.. so, I wasn't *too* worried about inducing w/ds in myself when i took it.

 

[Syd_Barret]

If you are an opiate addict how does diverting bupe help you get away from the issue of dealing with life using opiates? If the half life is as long as it is, how can you justify spitting it out to use later when effedtively you're gonna be free from WDs either way? You'll only prolong addiction b/c you're not learning how to deal w/o opiates -- I know easier said than done, but IMO maybe you should just get outta the driver's seat and let someone else drive for awhile (so to speak) b/c clearly dosing opiates with willpower hasnt worked out

Urm.. hey man I appreciate the concern... but it seems to me like you didn't read everything I said.
I didn't want to spit out the bupe (nor did I ), but if there was some small chance of me going through w/ds, I'd just as soon spit out the bupe, and dose it 12 hours later and make sure all heroin was out of me.

I am the one who first suggested to my father that he dose me in the mornings, it was not his suggestion.
He is in the *drivers* seat, mostly cause I asked him to be there for my own good, at least initially.

 

[HighonLife]

Yeah, 35mg of methadone isn't a high dose, so you should be able to switch after 24 hours, or maybe a little longer if you can tough it out. You just want to be sure that the methadone is 100% out of your system.

But yes, buprenorphine is what causes precipitated WD, and not naloxone.

Methadone -> oxycodone -> subutex is an easier switch, and it would certainly be nice to have that stepping stone. You're very lucky if your doctor is willing to help you with that step, and I would definitely utilize it.

do you really believe that doctors out there would prescribe oxycodone to someone on maintenance? particularly for the explicit purpose of a transition from one maintenance drug to another maintenance drug? i understand your reasoning as to why it would be better in theory but realistically what doctor would do that? i wish my bupe doctor would gimme some oxy. but thats a fat chance of ever happening

 

[dogfood]

do you really believe that doctors out there would prescribe oxycodone to someone on maintenance? particularly for the explicit purpose of a transition from one maintenance drug to another maintenance drug? i understand your reasoning as to why it would be better in theory but realistically what doctor would do that? i wish my bupe doctor would gimme some oxy. but thats a fat chance of ever happening

i think most people who use oxy or other painpills to transition don't get it from doctors... and if they do its really for pain.
i think doctors can get their medical license taken away for prescribing opiates to addicts.

 

[boxcut3]

yea, if it were me and my doctor was offering to do a temporary switch to Oxycodone for a few weeks, i would definitely do that. It will make the switch much easier than just going from Methadone to Subs. Plus I doubt the pills will really even be that noticeable after being on Methadone so you don't have to worry as much about getting sucked back into your DOC. Of course there is always some risk, but I'm just saying what I would do if it were me. Good luck.

thank you for your input. boxcutter: Did you use suboxone or subutex?? Just curious as to rather or not you think the naloxone in the suboxone (if that is what you took) played a role in you being sick. I keep doing research on the internet and I am finding info that contradicts each other. Some people say that the suboxone with the naloxone is why people get sick. Others say that it's the buprenorphine that is what is making people sick. I am so confused.

So, you are suggesting that I use something else before I make the switch?? The Dr told me that he would be ok with giving me several weeks worth of oxycodone before making the switch to subutex so that the methadone will have time to get out of my system. Do you think that will help and be better than making the switch directly? THanks again.

 

[boxcut3]

am I the only person who doesn't notice any blockage from Suboxone? It seems whenever I'm on Subs I can get high off a very small amount of heroin without needing to "shoot through" the block. Even when I'm using a ton of heroin and I start a bupe induction, after really large doses of bupe I can still get high off the normal amount of heroin I use. It's really weird. Anyone else have this experience with bupe?

 

[Cheech73]

Thank you VERY MUCH for the quick and informed responses. Followup questions...

Let's say (hypothetically of course) that I AM physically dependent on pods. Let's say I dose raw grounds 1-2 times daily. Let's also say that the day I take the Suboxone, it will have only been 24 hours since my last pod dose. Should I just forget about it and give the Suboxone back? If I feel like shit after taking it, will I be able to take a pod dose and feel fine again? This is starting to sound like more trouble than it's worth. Is there a safe way to dose on Suboxone without interrupting my pod schedule by more than 24 hours? Thanks, all!

What do you guys mean when you say "pods"? Opiates? Just asking, because I've never heard it before...thanks

 

[boxcut3]

"pods" refer to dried Papaver Somniferum opium pods that are meant for "decorative" use but most people crush up and make a tea out of to get high.

What do you guys mean when you say "pods"? Opiates? Just asking, because I've never heard it before...thanks