Insufflation Pain

[totallynotme]

Hello,
I'm curious as to what causes pain when insufflating substances, specifically the 2Cs. I hear it can be very painful, yet I haven't found any information as to why. Does it have to do with the powder scraping the inside of your nose, or is it related to the chemical itself? Also, at least some of the 2Cs are very soluble in water, so you could probably fit a good dose in half a milliliter or less. Would it be less painful to just hold some 2C-x solution in your nose?

(I'm not entirely sure if this is advanced enough for ADD, so feel free to move it to wherever it belongs)

 

[invert]

Hello,
I'm curious as to what causes pain when insufflating substances, specifically the 2Cs. I hear it can be very painful, yet I haven't found any information as to why. Does it have to do with the powder scraping the inside of your nose, or is it related to the chemical itself? Also, at least some of the 2Cs are very soluble in water, so you could probably fit a good dose in half a milliliter or less. Would it be less painful to just hold some 2C-x solution in your nose?

(I'm not entirely sure if this is advanced enough for ADD, so feel free to move it to wherever it belongs)

I'd be very interested to know the answer to this question too... and also whether the degree of pain would be related to the degree of risk of damage to the nasal and sinus cavities.

Speculating on the basis of experience rather than neurophysiological knowledge... I note that 2C-xs particularly produce a slowly developing pain. For me, it's of the order of about 5 minutes before pain is noticeable following insufflation of - say - a salt of 2C-C, and it then grows for another 5 minutes or so before subsiding. This makes me doubt a merely mechanical effect of the raw salt rubbing against nociceptors. Is it maybe dependent on the 2C-C and whichever acid the salt was formed from being released from the salt?

I also note that repeated intranasal insufflation over a period of a few hours produces reduced pain with each insufflation. Indeed, after a few c. 50mg insufflations of, say, MDMC or 4MMC (with only the first of these insufflations producing moderate pain), barely any discomfort is experienced insufflating normally painful substances. Is this due to a refractory period for nasal nociceptors? Or are the earlier insufflations just evoking mucus production that protects against the pain of later insufflations?

 

[Waterwalker]

I agree with invert, the pain builds up in a few minutes and then subsides after 10-15 minutes.
From my experience the salt is key. 2C-B-HCl burns like hell. The HBr still burns but noticeably less (and thanks for that). I've heard that the acetate is supposedly painless, but it is rather uncommon. Have anybody tried the oxalate?

 

[flacky]

Bump. I'd also be interested in seeing a good and detailed explanation.

 

[lineartransform]

My guess is the salt hits your mucous membranes, starts to go into solution, and the HCl contributes a whole lot of H+ ions that your nostrils don't like.

 

[flacky]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the products be N-hydro-2C-B+ and Cl-?

 

[dread]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the products be N-hydro-2C-B+ and Cl-?

A protonated form of an amine is hardly ever called "N-hydro", since it only has a positive hydrogen ion, which is nothing but a proton.

But otherwise, I think it depends on the salt, and concentration, and ph of solution. Some salts dissociate easier than others when in solution.

the HCl contributes a whole lot of H+ ions that your nostrils don't like.

Yeah this is false, because the H+ ions will be bound to the amine.

 

[MurphyClox]

Lineartransform's guess was already quite good IMHO. If the protons stay bound to the amine (2C-whatever), it won't cross the mucous membrane, as it would be charged. For this reason, the freebase amine (which is indeed partly present in an acid/base-equilibrium) will gradually diffuse through your mucous membrane, leaving the HCl behind. The higher the required dose, the stronger the pain.

The question would be now if there's a correlation between the degree of pain and the applied molar amount of a compound? What do the frequent users say?

- Murphy

 

[dread]

I'm not convinced it's all about the salt form. Then why doesn't amphetamine HCl or methamphetamine HCl burn as bad as the 2c-chemicals?

 

[MurphyClox]

Yeah, you've got a point. It was merely a theoretical justification. For this reason I asked if the insufflated dose correlated with the increase in pain...

 

[vecktor]

I am sure it has a lot to do with the solid salt sitting and irritating the membranes as it dissolves, with equimolar 2-cb doses for example the Hydrochloride is more painful than the hydrobromide which is more painful than the acetate, which is also the increasing order of solubility in water. The salt dissolves in the water in the mucous. I don't know whether predissolving the salt in pH 7.1 or similar buffer would help?? with an insoluble salt there is a solid lump of material surrounded locally by concentrated ions which I guess must exert an osmotic pressure on nearby cells, with a more soluble salt the more rapidly it dissolves and the more rapidly the concentration of ions falls.

some substances like cocaine act as local anaesthetics and possibly some degree amphetamine so cannot be compared directly.

 

[invert]

some substances like cocaine act as local anaesthetics and possibly some degree amphetamine so cannot be compared directly.

Is it possible that mephedrone has any local anaesthetic action? If so, that could explain why I find it to be protective against insufflation pain with other substances. E.g., I unintentionally took 50 mg 2C-B intranasally with essentially no discomfort, following an evening of mephedrone use. I had assumed the 'protection' was to do with increased mucus or damage to nociceptors.

 

[Iodjini_dk]

The theory of the acid from the salt sounds a bit strange to me. Isnt HBr a stronger acid than HCl? Thus the hydrobromide salt would inflict more pain?

I think its because insufflation is associated with cell death resulting from severe dehydration of the mucus membranes. Insufflation of some powder would result in a very hypertonic environment for the epithelial cells in the nasal cavity. And the cells would die from dehydration. Thats my theory at least.

 

[totallynotme]

HCl and HBr are both strong acids (meaning the dissociate completely). I would imagine the HBr would burn more simply because of the higher percentage of acid to 2C-x, assuming it is because the salt.

Couldn't this easily be tested by dissolving a 2C-x chemical and measuring it's pH? If it's neutral (which I'm fairly certain it won't be), then we know the acid theory is wrong. If it is acidic, then adding a little baking soda to neutralize it, then pouring in the nose might work.

If it's already dissolved then I'd doubt it could dehydrate anything either. Sounds easy to put to the test if someone has time.

 

[vecktor]

HCl and HBr are both strong acids (meaning the dissociate completely). I would imagine the HBr would burn more simply because of the higher percentage of acid to 2C-x, assuming it is because the salt.

no, stop and think about it, with a monobasic acid no matter the acid be it HCl HBr or even triflic acid there is one acid to one amine. the weight of the counterion eg Br- or Cl- is irrelevant

Couldn't this easily be tested by dissolving a 2C-x chemical and measuring it's pH? If it's neutral (which I'm fairly certain it won't be), then we know the acid theory is wrong. If it is acidic, then adding a little baking soda to neutralize it, then pouring in the nose might work.

If it's already dissolved then I'd doubt it could dehydrate anything either. Sounds easy to put to the test if someone has time.

the pH of practically all 2-c compounds as salts in aqueous solution is 5-6, yet hbr salts are less painfull, the only difference is the solubility.

 

[totallynotme]

no, stop and think about it, with a monobasic acid no matter the acid be it HCl HBr or even triflic acid there is one acid to one amine. the weight of the counterion eg Br- or Cl- is irrelevant

I meant a higher percentage of acid by mass, by molecules it will be the same. However, I see now that you were reffering to equimolar amount, so I guess mass doesn't matter. Still, I think experimentation is the way to go for now, the more data we have, the easier it is to discover what's causing the pain.

 

[kobilica]

burn

For me, Mephedrone burns alot more than 2c-e.

And I almost can't fell 2c-e burn, while my friends were crying on Meph .

And, my theory about burn, could molecules just somehow bind to/stimulate pain receptors?

 

[Iodjini_dk]

If it's already dissolved then I'd doubt it could dehydrate anything either. Sounds easy to put to the test if someone has time.

It could easily dehydrate the cells. Putting a cell in a hypertonic solution will kill it eventually as there is a net. outflux of water from the cell which it cant survive for long. This is also why isotonic solutions are reccomended for injection. Otherwise it will kill some bloodcells or other cells.

meant a higher percentage of acid by mass, by molecules it will be the same. However, I see now that you were reffering to equimolar amount, so I guess mass doesn't matter. Still, I think experimentation is the way to go for now, the more data we have, the easier it is to discover what's causing the pain

There is not a higher percentage of acid by mass. The acid is the H+ ion. It doesnt matter what the counterion is, as vecktor explained. From 20 mg 2C-B + HBr and 20 mg 2C-B + HCl you will get the same amount of acid.

 

[seep]

There is not a higher percentage of acid by mass. The acid is the H+ ion. It doesnt matter what the counterion is, as vecktor explained. From 20 mg 2C-B + HBr and 20 mg 2C-B + HCl you will get the same amount of acid.

You mean the 35.45 under Cl and 79.90 under Br don't refer to mass? Run do not walk to the presses.

 

[Iodjini_dk]

Yeah, by mass there is more material because Br has a larger mass than Cl. But we were talking about how much acid an equimolar amount of 2C-B HCl and 2C-B HBr would contain. Which is the same amount of acid even though 1 mol of 2C-B HCl and 1 mol of 2C-B HBr does not have the same mass.