The amalgamate molecule thread. Understanding dynamics of what would(n't) work & why?

[Nagelfar]

The amalgamate molecule thread. Understanding dynamics of what would(n't) work & why?

I just had a fancy thinking up branches to the 6 position of the morphinans that should remain active with what and why... and then my penchant for tropanes had me put this as what would go there, from a 2D perspective looks aesthetically pleasing but my nonexistent chemistry knowledge (no formal classroom, just aping what I see as a hobbyist for the most part). Maybe working with Morphine would be nicer as a classic speedball all in one but the oxygen there on the oxycodone made it look so much more tempting to me, though I know little of what I do as just stated. If someone would try a morphine 6-position cocaine branch and draw it and put it here I'd love to see how that looks with someone who knows how it'd bind and how it would look, what I have may not even be bonded for all I know and likely is not.

Why trouble them together when they are the same apart. I know, I know, but this exercise is not one to question why. I am only interested if it would work, what it would be called, etc (I was thinking something like 6-benzoylmethylecgonoxycodonine or 6-methylbenzoylecgonoxycodonine or such, but my nomenclature too may have much to be desired )

So anyone care to elaborate on this silly concoction of mine? Stupid, utterly flawed (maybe near certainly?) I'm just throwing muck together like an illiterate caveman looking at a keyboard for the first time with a screen, but show me what would be right just so I can have the chemical SAR 2D image, at least

Also; left or right one (if corrected to bond properly that is... I'm sure I'm missing something there, or maybe I'm assuming too much.. but I am guessing "right" as there we have the anaesthetic metabolic liability so they can possibly(?) split to do their constituent functions alone ).

Thanks

 

[vecktor]

you have 'special' tetravalent oxygen in both structures.
make either and you will get the Nobel Prize for Chemistry.

 

[dread]

I would do it like this. This would metabolize into hydromorphone, oxalic acid and a phenyltropane which has a propionyl instead of the carboxyl methyl ester.

 

[Quanta]

I just had a fancy thinking up branches to the 6 position of the morphinans that should remain active with what and why... and then my penchant for tropanes had me put this as what would go there, from a 2D perspective looks aesthetically pleasing but my nonexistent chemistry knowledge (no formal classroom, just aping what I see as a hobbyist for the most part). Maybe working with Morphine would be nicer as a classic speedball all in one but the oxygen there on the oxycodone made it look so much more tempting to me, though I know little of what I do as just stated. If someone would try a morphine 6-position cocaine branch and draw it and put it here I'd love to see how that looks with someone who knows how it'd bind and how it would look, what I have may not even be bonded for all I know and likely is not.

Why trouble them together when they are the same apart. I know, I know, but this exercise is not one to question why. I am only interested if it would work, what it would be called, etc (I was thinking something like 6-benzoylmethylecgonoxycodonine or 6-methylbenzoylecgonoxycodonine or such, but my nomenclature too may have much to be desired )

So anyone care to elaborate on this silly concoction of mine? Stupid, utterly flawed (maybe near certainly?) I'm just throwing muck together like an illiterate caveman looking at a keyboard for the first time with a screen, but show me what would be right just so I can have the chemical SAR 2D image, at least

Also; left or right one (if corrected to bond properly that is... I'm sure I'm missing something there, or maybe I'm assuming too much.. but I am guessing "right" as there we have the anaesthetic metabolic liability so they can possibly(?) split to do their constituent functions alone ).

Thanks

Aside from the fact that neither compound can exist as you have drawn them, have you considered that when you tether two drugs together you can no longer control the doses? They would have to be nearly equipotent.

 

[wungchow]

a simple (and potentially lethal) combination would be the ethyl ester of GHB.

 

[seep]

2,4,6-trinitroamphetamine

 

[Rectify]

^--That is funny.

 

[Hammilton]

Yes, unless you know that they're equipotent, that x moles = x moles, not x mg = x mg. (correct me if I'm wrong, but since you're consuming an equal number of molecules, not equal weight).

The first suggestions are retarded.

On the question of chemical impossibility, has it been determined whether a pentavalent carbon may exist or not? I know it's not supposed to, but I read a bunch saying that it was accomplished (though obviously not practical for drug use).

I thought this thread was going to be about merging two molecules into one with the goal of obtaining a molecule with dual activity. This has the same issues, different affinity for different receptors, but it seems safer for some reason.

 

[dread]

a simple (and potentially lethal) combination would be the ethyl ester of GHB.

Nah, it's not lethal, it's been done and tried. I don't remember where I read about it, perhaps it was on rhodium... On the dosages of GHB you wouldn't get enough ethanol to feel it much.

But the isopropyl ester... now that would be something. Isopropanol is, after all, 2x the potency of ethanol.

2,4,6-trinitroamphetamine

what for?? suicide?


e. btw. wasn't there, back in the day, some pharmaceutical product which was a salt of morphine and some barbiturate?

 

[Hammilton]

Isopropyl alcohol is 2x the potency of ethanol? That's news to me. I know n-propanol is more potent, and metabolites of the branched chain simple alcohols are significantly more toxic (the aldehyde metabolites formed, IIRC).

I've tried n-Butanol and n-Pentanol, and both were much more potent than ethanol, and more interesting, IMHO.

I don't know about morphine + a barb, it's possible, but I know that propylhexedrine + a barb was done.

 

[dread]

Well, it was some opioid, and some barbiturate, I'm sure I've heard of it somewhere, possibly on bluelight.

Also on this very forum was a thread about drinking isopropanol, where it was said that it is by weight 2x the potency of ethanol. Also that it is significantly more dangerous, easier to overdose...

 

[nuke]

arg

 

[Quanta]

The overall premise does have some merit in specific situations. For example, the drug olsalazine (dipentum) is two 5-aminosalicylic acid molecules tethered together through an azo bond. This is done for the purpose of specific delivery of 5-ASA to the lower intestine, via bacterial azo-bond metabolism, for the treatment of irritable bowel disease. Obviously in this instance the problem of equipotency is not a problem because it is a dimer of the same drug.

The linking of a particularly toxic drug to a specific antibody for lower exposure is a reasonable, though complicated, concept also.

Not much point to linking two pyschoactives though....

 

[nuke]

Well, it's not really anything new, either. See fenethylline. Usually they're unnecessarily expensive to make.

Isopropyl alcohol is 2x the potency of ethanol? That's news to me. I know n-propanol is more potent, and metabolites of the branched chain simple alcohols are significantly more toxic (the aldehyde metabolites formed, IIRC).

Aldehyde of acetone? It's broken down to the ketone (acetone) which is further metabolized to lactic acid if I remember correctly. These are not terribly toxic.

 

[wungchow]

now that i think about it,

an ester of GHB and 2-methyl-2-butanol would definitely knock someone out at a dosage of 1-2 grams.

 

[seep]

About the barb plus opiate thing: you mean besides fiorinal? I took that for 3 or 4 straight days and it was really smooth--no sedation either.

Not much point to linking two pyschoactives though....

I sorta disagree. There's every reason in the world to link effective moieties. This whole SNDRI arms race is a colossal attempt to produce monkeys with more and more asses. Look at how ubiquitous the 3,4 dichlorophenyl motif is in many of those. And in the phenyltropane varieties, the ring doesn’t even come from cocaine’s benzoate, which is hydrolyzed several steps earlier.

Actually, does anyone know the origin of the dichlorophenyl in so many psychotropics (e.g. sertraline, aripiprazole, lamotrigine)? This is where my ignorance gets in the way. The earliest medicinal use I can trace it to is the post WWII antimalarial chlorproguanil, which was found to have a longer duration than proguanil (only one chlorine on the ring). Actually, a French report cites proguanil as a prodrug to chlorproguanil in either the human or the insect (my French sucks). Prior to that, orthodichlorobenzene was a pesticide, maybe first synthesized around the end of the 19th century?

 

[dread]

About the barb plus opiate thing: you mean besides fiorinal?

Yeah, no it wasn't fiorinal... i think it was some old, old drug formulation, in the 50s or 60s maybe...

Actually, just found this from wikipedia:

morphine has been used as the salicylate salt by some suppliers and can be easily compounded, imparting the therapeutic advantage of both the opioid and the NSAID; multiple barbiturate salts of morphine were also used in the past, as was/is morphine valerate, the salt of the acid being the active principle of valerian

 

[Nagelfar]

I would do it like this. This would metabolize into hydromorphone, oxalic acid and a phenyltropane which has a propionyl instead of the carboxyl methyl ester.

Thanks dread. ...Might there be a way to do my given idea; have a break down constituent true speed ball of morphine (rather than the oxycodone I had pictured)? Regardless, yes what many have so far said; dosing either side of the effect is fixed at a certain equipotent rate... the best this would do with my morphine; speed-ball is keep the wise from raising their morphine tolerance; in the worst case it would make the foolish overstep the cocaine tolerance sensitization which only goes so far before becoming lethal where morphine could raise and raise.

...Am proud that my simplistic and untenable idea seems to have ignited some actual proper advanced board intellectual discussion among others: so I am glad my thread appears to have been of maieutic worth to those who know their chemistry and didn't just degenerate into criticisms of my small mindedness on the matter: I think knowingly deriding myself from the get go helped lend the idea that I knew I didn't know what I was talking about from the beginning (wow what a redundant sentence... screw it I'm keeping it that way hehe, helps go with the humility of my presentation, intuitively keeps people from taking me having myself serious which would unravel the worth this thread seems to actually be accruing/garnering)....

...
...
...

Anyhow, this is slightly unrelated, but could multiple salts be added to a molecule? Could something be a Morphine hydrocloride cum sulfate(?), one on top of another, or something partitioned where it is one thing then another? Also there appears to be some way in which the molecular level can encapsulate basic periodic table of elements, what is this "organic complex" so mentioned on that link given? Anyone know? Someone suggested in the discussion page there (it is a wikipedia article) that it has to do with systemic delivery to the human metabolic system for the element, but it seems like something else to my intuition of it. (but then again, that could very well be correct), If this "organic complex of technetium. (as there at link pictured)" is just a molecular framework to an element, could such be done for any element? Near completely unrelated question, maybe it should be its own thread: except that is for the 'layer cake' HCl over sufate idea and this giving credence to the idea of encapsulating different scales of physics and chemistry, e.g. if an element can be encompassed in a molecule certainly one acid over another to a molecule could be? ....My blind mucking about, if we end up to find that these have no even analogous (in terms of making an analogy) relation (because I don't really see it myself when I stop to think about it, heh), might at least bring up an interest insight of an entirely other sort. Sometimes random blurting of nonsensical ideas helps have an cohesive thought pattern of another have an epiphany and this is the least I can hope for maybe in this instance

 

[mad_scientist]

I would do it like this. This would metabolize into hydromorphone, oxalic acid and a phenyltropane which has a propionyl instead of the carboxyl methyl ester.

That one is at least plausible, although a succinate linker would be much better than oxalate (think of your kidneys!)

 

[dread]

That one is at least plausible, although a succinate linker would be much better than oxalate (think of your kidneys!)

Yeah, I agree. Fumarate would do nicely as well.

Could something be a Morphine hydrocloride cum sulfate

That all depends if the base molecule can accept multiple protons. Morphine can only accept one proton, it has only 1 proton accepting amine, thus 1 morphine molecule can bind itself to 1 monoprotic acid. Sulphuric acid is a diprotic acid, so one molecule of sulphuric acid can actually bind two molecules of morphine.

Of course you could have a mixture of the hydrochloride and sulphate salts.