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A friend of mine just got permanent brain and heart damage by... a tryptamine?

D

Devban

Greenlighter
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
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So this friday a couple of friends of mine decided to go tripping again, after a break of over a year. They took a high dose (40 mg) of 4-HO-MET, which is basically psilocin with an ethyl and methyl group instead of two methyl (an added carbon atom, that is). Then all of a sudden one of them started to behave strange. Not that is isn't expected, but he went totally nuts; throwing books at the others, screaming and then eventually running out of the building.

When they went after him a while later (when they realized he was not coming back) they found that he had run out naked, stopped cars and jumped on them, completely shutting off the traffic. When the police and ambulance finally came, it took them >10 minutes to get him in the ambulance. The police had to physically force him in.

After a MRI-scan of his brain and heart at the hospital, and several experts called in from different hospitals to find out what went wrong, they concluded that he had suffered permanent brain and heart damage and that this could not be from trauma or anything else than the drug.

Now, everything I know about tryptamines says that this is impossible. If this is indeed caused by the drug, wouldn't there be more documented cases on this type of damage from the use of tryptamines (psilocin/psilocybin in particular)? Is it at all possible for serotonin agonists to cause that kind of damage?

I'll try to get in touch with the chief neurologist and get more data, but until then I figured I'd ask you guys. Since this is a drug that many of my friends use from time to time, and because this is a very unusual case, I'd like to shed some light on this.
 
Psychotic reactions from psychedelics are uncommon but do occur.

Now. I'd have to hear from the radiologist what sort of damage to the heart and brain were visible from the MRI before I could even begin to decide if it was drug related or not. The symptoms of prolonged, intense serotonin agonism are similar to those of ergotism. Severe ergotism can result in brain damage from vasospasm causing ischemia. The tryptamines are well known to generally be partial agonists however, so to have this problem occur from them would be unexpected, and the general reports on 4-HO-MET have not reported much in the way of cardiovascular side effects as far as I'm aware.

I've seen cases of psychotic overdoses of DOM, DOB and DOI where the user behaved in the fashion described above but did not suffer any permanent side effects, and those are likely to be much stronger 5HT2A agonists than many of these substituted tryptamines.

Physicians in particular don't (or shouldn't if they're worth their lot) like ascribing something as severe as permanent brain damage to an unknown drug when something else may be the culprit and my guess is many of them aren't entirely secure in their diagnosis if they indeed said it could only have been the drug.
 
I have had permanent reactions from the medications topamax, and fentanyl.

topamax caused me to have permanent chronic pain, which is currently dxed as fybromyalgia (I suspect there is more to it, as after using duragesic patches 4 years ago, I got WORSE, so much so I am now unable to work.

I can't speak for anyone else, but everyone reacts differently to certain things , no matter what the majority may do.

I have been trying to research a bit and ran across this site, and noticed this post.

My brother in law allegedly had some sort of schizophrenic episode from smoking a joint at a party 20 years ago, but they don't talk about that sort of thing so All I really know is what I have heard on that one.

There are a lot of new drugs coming out that are not exactly tested the way they should be, and we unfortunately are the guinea pigs.

be careful, If I had it to do over, I would have never tried narcotics for the pain., now it is so bad that the only relief if you want to call it that Iget is from either hydrocodone or oxycodone. I would love to try something more potent but with DR. paranoia about prescribing especially when the doctors are unable to determine the cause of pain, I get to literally grin and bear it .
 
Some more information like what kind of brain and heart damage would be good, if these effects are permanent (ie is he in a coma ? did he come out of it ?) or if they effect his speech/vision. It's not inconceivable he could have an adverse reaction to an adulterant in the chemical, or even the chemical itself, but it's really hard to tell anything with such little information.
 
Botched synthesis and impurities come to mind. There's no way a 40mg dose of pure 4-ho-met would cause brain damage...
 
nuke said:
Psychotic reactions from psychedelics are uncommon but do occur.

Now. I'd have to hear from the radiologist what sort of damage to the heart and brain were visible from the MRI before I could even begin to decide if it was drug related or not. The symptoms of prolonged, intense serotonin agonism are similar to those of ergotism. Severe ergotism can result in brain damage from vasospasm causing ischemia. The tryptamines are well known to generally be partial agonists however, so to have this problem occur from them would be unexpected, and the general reports on 4-HO-MET have not reported much in the way of cardiovascular side effects as far as I'm aware.

I've seen cases of psychotic overdoses of DOM, DOB and DOI where the user behaved in the fashion described above but did not suffer any permanent side effects, and those are likely to be much stronger 5HT2A agonists than many of these substituted tryptamines.

Physicians in particular don't (or shouldn't if they're worth their lot) like ascribing something as severe as permanent brain damage to an unknown drug when something else may be the culprit and my guess is many of them aren't entirely secure in their diagnosis if they indeed said it could only have been the drug.
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Thank you very much for your input. I'll try and get in touch with the radiologist as soon as possible.
 
psychetool said:
Some more information like what kind of brain and heart damage would be good, if these effects are permanent (ie is he in a coma ? did he come out of it ?) or if they effect his speech/vision. It's not inconceivable he could have an adverse reaction to an adulterant in the chemical, or even the chemical itself, but it's really hard to tell anything with such little information.
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Yes, I know that I have provided very little information, out of the simple reason that I haven't gotten much more information.

No, he did not go into a coma and I just got word that his heart is slowly recovering (should edit the first post). Nevertheless he suffered some kind of brain damage but until I've spoken with the doctors it is hard to know what kind of damage he suffered.

He has very obvious changes in behaviour and speech, as well as comprehension from what I've heard. I'll confirm it first-hand asap.
 
dread said:
Botched synthesis and impurities come to mind. There's no way a 40mg dose of pure 4-ho-met would cause brain damage...
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At least not from any of its usual mechanisms of action. I've purposely taken large doses of it, as have friends, and I've also due to the fuck-up-factor at one time ingested more than double the dose dicussed here by mistake.

I've become a balls-tripping retard incapable of anything (drooling slightly and definitely not able to throw stuff, much less so rampaging in the streets), but have always woken up early next morning with a mind as fresh as a newly rebooted Win XP. 2C-B and reasonable doses of MDMA used responsibly feels more damaging to me than stupidity (some call it curiosity) and 4-HO-MET has done.

In my experience, when taken in not-so-stupid doses this substance has stimulating properties similar to those of psilocin and LSD, but large doses incapacitates and induces a dreamlike psychedelic space-out-trip, which psilocin and LSD does as well. Smashing property and generally acting overaggressive seems more psychotic than tryptaminergically psychotomimetic to me.
 
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Mind,spirit and matter are an inseparable unity so good luck trying to separate it.But I know this view is against the mainstream view in the western world with its strong dualistic world view.
 
fastandbulbous said:
I'd be more inclined to say 'brain dysfunction' rather than brain damage. Dysfunction (to me at least) implies a fault in the software (the realms of psychiatry) whereas damage imples a fault in the hardware (for the neurophysiologists)
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I am not aware of any psychological/psychiatric disorders - notwithstanding personality disorders - that aren't associated with genetic or neurophysiological abnormalities of some kind or another. (Really, though, many personality disorders probably are caused by or cause various neurophysiological anomalies)

Sufferers of body dysmorphic disorder - which one might well take for a simple distortion of the software/programming of the brain - tend to present with asymmetries between the two hemispheres of their brain with respect to very particular locations.

And depression, for example, is associated with abnormalities in hippocampal neuronal densities as well as white matter hyperintensities in the cortex. I believe the amygdala also tends to be undersized in individuals with depression.

Multiple sclerosis, a psychiatric disorder - and let me remind you that you said or implied at least that psychiatric disorders were problems of software not hardware - is caused by demyelination of axons by the body's own antibodies. This certainly qualifies as damage.

The software/programming of the brain is inseparable from the structure of the brain. The structure/shape/architecture is the programming. And most psychiatric disorders cause or are caused by considerable damage to the brain.


/Excuse me if this was a bit unfocused or rambly; I just woke up having taken lots of memantine, diazepam, magnesium, and melatonin the night before and I'm not feeling particularly clear-headed right now.
 
In the end its semantics,matter and spirit is a unity however you wanna separate it.Western culture is in the process now of finding out ie psychosomatics (sp?) is gaining popularity rapidly.
 
Devban said:
After a MRI-scan of his brain and heart at the hospital, and several experts called in from different hospitals to find out what went wrong, they concluded that he had suffered permanent brain and heart damage and that this could not be from trauma or anything else than the drug.

.
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I think the "experts" are trying to scare this kid so he won't go out and start more antics by telling him the drugs are causing him brain damage. Brain damage should only be considered after seeing a before MRI and then a few years afterwards. The "damage" they could be seeing could just be how his brain is.

-lenses
 
But the friend who ingested the 4-HO-MET seems to have clear cognitive changes due to this trip according to what the OP has said.
 
Has that batch of 4-HO-MET been subjected to GCMS or analysis to determine adulterants/impurities? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck and I certainly wouldn't expect the casual researcher to do such a thing but I don't know if it is fair to blame a chem before verifying with certainty that is what was ingested. Also, was the friend taking any other meds? This could give us some valuable insight into possible contraindication/harmful interactions we should be aware of.

On a side note, I get the impression from multiple stories that medical professionals go out of their way to blame "drugs" for problems a patient suffers instead of admitting that they are clueless. I think the rationale is that it will "scare the patient straight" and make the physician look less incompetent. They figure that people will accept that "big bad drugs" are a reasonable culprit for sudden/serious illness.
 
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