Originally Posted by Sustanon View Post
I think this thread should be completely closed down for 2 reasons.
1. People get ideas and start selling it as MDMA. We already have idiots who do that.
How's that going to change if a thread is closed? A would-be dealer would simply look for another thread or forum discussion if they needed info on 4-MMC or any other MDMA like replacement. Even scientific journals give potentially valuable info to dealers, manufacturers etc etc - would you ban linking to those as well? Believe it or not, one of the earliest things online on 4-MMC (in Engish) was a circa 04 hive post describing the synthesis from the propiophenone precursor as well as another possible route from an OTC product, together with a reasonably detailed description of the effects. I believe there were also articles printed in Russian which go back quite a bit further. So the info has been out there for years. The market-demand itself is the biggest reason why such things become popular whether we're talking street level dealers or any other supply source. Even if we had no such discussions, big syndicates would still be exploiting any unsuspecting market via online and retail sales. It's certainly happened with 4-MMC
2. Its gettting too much attention.
And so it should, for perhaps different reasons than you are referring to, but nevertheless, as lil angel stated, this is a harm reduction board. I'll add that we're not here to protect suppliers, and keep precursors legal, but instead to provide information to allow users to make an informed choice. That's the bottom line. If you have problems with the law, here or os, then become proactive and try to change it, but please don't blame Bluelight or those of us who strive to present up to date information pertinent to HR discussion.
But all this information is also subjective - and doesn't apply to everyone (the vasoconstriction issues). The process of banning drugs like this happens far to quickly, before we even get a chance to do the research because of a handful of morons overdoing it.
How do you know vasoconstriction issues don't apply to you? Would you "feel" the neurotoxicity of meth or the mitral valve damage from 5HT2b agonists as it occurs? Or early liver damage from alcohol, or smoking related early obstructive pulmonary disease which eventually leads to emphysema? Probably not. For many long term users it's the
chronic manifestations that make most people finally sit up and take notice.
The process of banning drugs like this happens far to quickly, before we even get a chance to do the research because of a handful of morons overdoing it.
There's an activist's hat with your name on it just waiting to be worn :D If you don't like how this occurs, get together with Sustanon and others, build your case, and present it for debate. There's a massive legal highs industry that must be worth hundreds of millions world wide. Is it so veiled in secrecy that those with money can't stand up and put forward a proposition or back those who are willing? If that's the case, then it's even more important threads like this exist.
I'm not opposed to the concept of legal highs, but I don't agree with existing "industry guidelines" (or the lack thereof). A regulated industry may not solve all the problems but it would undoubtedly be safer than it currently stands. It also paves the way forward for emerging compounds to be properly researched before unleashing to an unsuspecting and often naive public.
There will always be those who ignore the warnings and will go hard anyway. In some ways, any product approved for human use needs some safety margin - a broad dose response, fast elimination etc. to allow for the go-harders. Then there are the many who turn to legals either believing them to be safer than illicits, or indeed believing legal products don't contain drugs at all. Ridiculous as it may seem, I've seen interventions where the casualty thought they were taking a herb or thought there were no drugs involved. That occurs principally because of poor education, but also because these shops appeal to those who might want a bit of spontaneous fun, legal that is, or are attracted by the concept, presentation, products etc for whatever reasons. This sort of customer presents quite often to HR groups and medics often because the effects experienced were not expected. Then there are those who expect more than they get from a legal product and so take way over the recommended dosages - not necessarily a "go-hard", just someone wanting to get a level of intoxication they expected.
With alcohol restrictions coming into force this summer at festivals, my bet is we'll see higher numbers of those with problems relating to consumption of legal highs. So the industry needs to step up labeling - I know some Aus retailers are now doing this - and it's a big improvement
, and salespeople need to not only be competent and well aware of the products and all known pharmacology, but also be able to identify different customer types and what they may or may not know of the drugs and ingredients on offer. A good pharmacist would likely make a good legal highs salesperson...little wonder though why they're not rushing for the job
![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
It's certainly a difficult situation; how to reduce risk, better inform customers and verify product safety, while gaining respect and acceptance from a majority of the public who aren't even aware such a burgeoning industry exists. Let's hope something get's off the ground before opponents attempt to ban the industry outright, which has been recently attempted on the Island of Guernsey. It won't stop legal highs IMO, but paradoxically, it may well drive the industry more underground, which in turn makes effective HR more difficult to achieve.
You can bet that there's considerable interest in what happens in the wake of the Guernsey import ban and whether regulation of this kind will be considered achievable in other parts of the world.
Google search results
Guernsey legal highs
What I was commenting on is baysieguy1's post on the effects of having alcohol in his system and taking 4MMC. I guess my wording of one drug being "dulled" by another was incorrect. Like you said, even if both drugs are active in ones system, the effects of one might be more noticeable then another. Eg, if copious amounts of alcohol was taken with a small dose of 4MMC (due to a cut or not), the alcohol's effects would be more prominent then the 4MMC.
