Karma, real or a way for the weak too "get even"

[Full Effect]

Karma is just a nice little idea that keeps you from obsessively plotting against the kid that bullied you in high school every night for the rest of your life. That and practicing voodoo.

If karma existed, someone like Hitler would've been hung by his own singular testicle and gradually cuit into enough pieces to represent each life he'd ruined. (Hell yes I played the Hitler card!)

Karma implies that the universe holds a moral objectivist view, which is bullshit. The universe doesn't care about the girl that took your car, or the kid that kicked over your garden gnome. Any examples of karma are just luck.

He lost the war and died a early death ?

I agree on Karam though, it's probably a load of bollocks to make people feel better, but Hitler failed in the end, as the saying goes he lost the game. He also suffered from incontinence.


Edit: Sorry he actually di dnot get incontinence got that mixed up but he had numerous heath problems..

 

[ThaiDie4]

I believe that karma exists in the form of how you interact with others. You will be treated the way you treat others. To put it in a very simple example, if you act like an asshole to the people around you, chances are you won't have many friends and most people will probably dislike you. Just that basic rule of "Do unto others as you would like done to you" sort of deal. Easy enough.

As far as believing that the universe will retaliate on you for your bad choices, I don't know about that. I have no sort of knowledge of quantim physics and such, so I'm not getting into that. But I do not believe that there is some sort of higher power that judges your actions and rewards\punishes you for them.

 

[straycatphizzle]

I believe that karma exists in the form of how you interact with others. You will be treated the way you treat others. To put it in a very simple example, if you act like an asshole to the people around you, chances are you won't have many friends and most people will probably dislike you. Just that basic rule of "Do unto others as you would like done to you" sort of deal. Easy enough.

As far as believing that the universe will retaliate on you for your bad choices, I don't know about that. I have no sort of knowledge of quantim physics and such, so I'm not getting into that. But I do not believe that there is some sort of higher power that judges your actions and rewards\punishes you for them.

See I agree with you, but look at it this way.You are the universe, the universe is you. If you hurt someone you're literally hurting yourself, in one way or another. You ever hurt someone and feel bad about it? Why do you feel bad? Not because you think "oh now something bad is gonna happen to me". You feel bad because you hurt yourself, because everything in the beginning came out of one, it still is just in muliple places and forms.

 

[Jamshyd]

How do I say this without offending anyone...

Ok, everyone in this thread, except maybe Rachamim: go back and edit all your posts, and replace the word "Karma" with something along the lines of "universal justice".

Because it seems to me that what you guys are discussing here has very little to do with the actual idea of Karma - but it is understandable, as "Karma" has been integrated into the English language to signify something other than what it originally means.

Roughly speaking, Karma is better thought of as a "butterfly effect". Every action (lit. "Karma" from the Sanskrit) done by anyone affects everything over space and time. If we were to take the Indian metaphor of the illusion of reality (maya) as a web, then Karma would be the pulling or pushing on a thread in said web. This action will affect the entire web one way or the other. Of course, said ripples may ripple back to you in this lifetime, or they may not. But ripple they do.

In many instances in Indian philosophy, we see that all karma is bad karma, the idea being that all wilful action springs forth from material entanglements.

The original idea of Karma never really meant to signify action-reaction in terms of deeds.

For a reasonable introduction on the concept of Krama, refer to:

Flood, Gavin, An Introduction to Hinduism, Cambridge University Press (2003)

 

[ThaiDie4]

How do I say this without offending anyone...

Ok, everyone in this thread, except maybe Rachamim: go back and edit all your posts, and replace the word "Karma" with something along the lines of "universal justice".

Because it seems to me that what you guys are discussing here has very little to do with the actual idea of Karma - but it is understandable, as "Karma" has been integrated into the English language to signify something other than what it originally means.

Roughly speaking, Karma is better thought of as a "butterfly effect". Every action (lit. "Karma" from the Sanskrit) done by anyone affects everything over space and time.

Ahh this makes sense. I always thought of "karma" as some sort of ulitimate retaliation\reward system based on your actions, by a concious higher power. And yes, people seem to use the word to describe such ("Well if you steal from this person, karma will come back and bite you in the ass!")

(And no offense taken :D )

Hmmm, well, I don't know.. I always thought of the idea of the "butterfly effect" to be interesting... Again, I don't think that it is due to any higher being, but perhaps just the interaction of life\nature\whatever creates a chain of events that never ends (maybe that still doesnt fit the accurate definition, idk)... kinda cool to think about. But I don't really know.

Might have to check out that book ^ Interesting stuff.

 

[Heuristic]

I agree with those who say that the universe doesn't particularly care about justice. A baby is born in one country, and has excellent medical care, food, stability; a baby is born in another country, and has no medical care, contracts a horrible disease, and dies a slow and excruciating death. The difference from the baby's perspective? Luck. Universal justice? Please.

What measure of justice, and of our values, that we have managed to bring forth and preserve in this world have been accomplished imperfectly through hard work and sacrifice, and the struggle to enlarge that measure continues.

You yourself choose, on a daily basis, whether you will strengthen or weaken the presence of various values in the world. Will you treat another, or yourself, with kindness and respect? Will you act courageously, or not? The question ultimately is up to you; and while the universe may not care how you answer it, perhaps you do.

 

[straycatphizzle]

There may not be universal justice. But when one puts out a certain type of vibration (ex. negative,positive) it comes back to them.

 

[rachamim]

Jam: Excellent definition of Karma.

Heuristic: "There is no universal damage.": I am suprised you say that in a definative manner.

I will not go off on a deep tangent but we are creatures of Absolute Freewill (as you correctly stated) but within the framework of a very finely defined system.

"2 Baby Analogy.": 1 baby lived a sin filled life in an earlier incarnation. However, within the Jewish framework the death would also be karmic payback for others as well (perhaps a parent, an errant healthcare worker whose career is ruined perhaps and so on). Trying to visualise the grand sceheme as it were, as you seem to be, is futile.

"The universe may not care...": Of course it does not. G-D DOES. The "universe" is THE creation. G-D is the creator.

 

[Heuristic]

Heuristic: "There is no universal damage.": I am suprised you say that in a definative manner.

I will not go off on a deep tangent but we are creatures of Absolute Freewill (as you correctly stated) but within the framework of a very finely defined system.

"2 Baby Analogy.": 1 baby lived a sin filled life in an earlier incarnation. However, within the Jewish framework the death would also be karmic payback for others as well (perhaps a parent, an errant healthcare worker whose career is ruined perhaps and so on). Trying to visualise the grand sceheme as it were, as you seem to be, is futile.

I am very definitive. I cannot possibly conceive in what manner a baby might bear any responsibility for what a person in another life did. I'd also point out, given the vast growth of the human population, that this rationale for seemingly gratuitous suffering visited upon infants falls mathematically short.

"The universe may not care...": Of course it does not. G-D DOES. The "universe" is THE creation. G-D is the creator.

I don't see any evidence that God cares. I see evidence that human beings care. Perhaps God does care. But, to quote one President, "on this earth, God's work must truly be our own."

 

[rachamim]

Heuristic: "What responsibility could a newborn have for what some person did in another life?": Our souls are eternal. The newborn's soul is not new, it lived in a previous existence and so now it suffers. That is not so say that we should not try and assuage that suffering because the judgement of souls is for G-D alone.

We also believe in trans-migration, coming back as a dog for example, or a cockroach. It sounds very similar to Hindu dogma but in fact there are numerous dogmatic differences (aside from the fundamental one which I have already touched upon, the negation of Nirvana or an ideological equivalent. We do not seek to cease reincarnating as stated).

"Gratuitous suffering of infants falls short mathematically.": First, as stated it is not "gratuitous. Think of it as a "Karmic Balance Sheet." The idea is to limit one's sinfullness and to do penance for those sins which we cannot expiate simply by counterbalance (via positive
acts/fufillment of Commandments).

Second, what does mathematics have to do with this? What is the equation?

"Heuristic does NOT see proof that G-D cares...": I did not peg you as a Deist. Go figure. Spinoza would have smiled. However, proof is all around you.

Primo Levi, a reknowned atheist survived Auschwitz. In his writings he spoke of a very popular view amongst Survivors (including a couple of my own now avowedly secular relatives). He asks how any G-D would allow such suffering.

G-D created everything. HE gave us all we need to survive, all we need to be happy. At that point it became our responsibility to manage and utilise that which HE had given. He does not trouble HIMself over our second-to-second affairs. HE can and does intervene when need be, but only rarely...

If you have a child, you pamper the child, give him all that he needs...The child grows up always whining, hitting others, ruining his room, spitting at you, what do YOU do? You still love him but you realise that the more you do the worse he will get. From there on in you wait for him to realise the error of his ways, and you wait patiently.

An atrium waters itself, might be a way to try and visualise it, albeit in a very basic way.

 

[Delta-9-THC]

That child only learns the error of his ways because of the response he receives from his parents. When a child throws a tantrum and acts poorly, he is reproached and does not receive the attention and love he craves.

He quickly learns to emulate and act as his parents do to gain their approval and love. He doesn't do it out of the reasoning that it is morally right but instead he does it to gain what he craves: attention and approval from his parents or caregivers.

Contrary to what you claim, there is little to no evidence for reincarnation and IMO it's just a nice idea that allows people to fear death a little less and believe that they will be rewarded in the next life for following the rules.

If we have no memories of our previous life than how are we supposed to learn from our mistake and subsequent punishment of being reincarnated into lower conditions or even a lower life form?

 

[Heuristic]

Heuristic: "What responsibility could a newborn have for what some person did in another life?": Our souls are eternal. The newborn's soul is not new, it lived in a previous existence and so now it suffers. That is not so say that we should not try and assuage that suffering because the judgement of souls is for G-D alone.

I see. From my perspective, it's difficult for me to imagine what this "soul," devoid of all personality, memory, and awareness, could possibly be. The formation of individual identity seems so completely dependent on particular neurological development, guided and shaped by genes and environment, that I don't see a role for a "soul" anywhere, much less how this soul could be considered culpable for acts committed when it was part of another personality.

Second, what does mathematics have to do with this? What is the equation?

Since the human population expands geometrically, I have trouble figuring out where all these extra souls could come from.

"Heuristic does NOT see proof that G-D cares...": I did not peg you as a Deist. Go figure. Spinoza would have smiled. However, proof is all around you.

Primo Levi, a reknowned atheist survived Auschwitz. In his writings he spoke of a very popular view amongst Survivors (including a couple of my own now avowedly secular relatives). He asks how any G-D would allow such suffering.

G-D created everything. HE gave us all we need to survive, all we need to be happy. At that point it became our responsibility to manage and utilise that which HE had given. He does not trouble HIMself over our second-to-second affairs. HE can and does intervene when need be, but only rarely...

If you have a child, you pamper the child, give him all that he needs...The child grows up always whining, hitting others, ruining his room, spitting at you, what do YOU do? You still love him but you realise that the more you do the worse he will get. From there on in you wait for him to realise the error of his ways, and you wait patiently.

An atrium waters itself, might be a way to try and visualise it, albeit in a very basic way.

If you believe that all the evil which befalls another is deserved, then I suppose the problem of evil becomes less of a problem. But... I think there remains a thorny problem. Here it is.

I am able to do evil to another. To do evil to another is to visit harm upon he who does not deserve it. But then, if I am able to do evil upon another, then another can and does suffer that which he does not deserve. And if I am free to do great evil to another, then another can suffer great evil which he does not deserve.

If I am NOT able to do evil to another, then I have never, and cannot, commit evil, and thus deserve no punishment or suffering.

So in either logical case, we have a universe in which God permits individuals who do not deserve great suffering, to nonetheless fall victim to it.

It's a logical possibility that there is some place or way by which God compensates those who have suffered unjustly. But if so, that is a part of the universe of which I am not aware. The observed universe does not seem to embody any moral law, much less enforce it.

 

[Coolio]

Before this thread continues any further, let me remind you that whatever you're discussing is not "karma". Maybe you should change the thread title. A little refresher, from Wikipedia of all places, on what karma actually means:

Karma means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names the universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction that governs all life

According to Paramhans Swami Maheshwarananda, we produce Karma in four ways:

* through thoughts
* through words
* through actions that we perform ourselves
* through actions others do under our instructions

Everything that we have ever thought, spoken, done or caused is Karma; as is also that which we think, speak or do this very moment. After death we lose Kriya Shakti (ability to act) and do karma. Actions performed consciously are weighted more heavily than those done unconsciously.

Karma has nothing to do with right or wrong, or justice, or people getting what they deserve. In fact it is almost the exact OPPOSITE of that. Karma means that you killing someone results in someone else suffering for being murdered. Someone else suffering is the punishment you receive. Atman experiences every conscious beings' entire life in the same manner, so across time and space you're both the killer and killed. The point of these Eastern religions is that you're supposed to be training yourself to think of your sense of "I" as the entire universe, all conscious beings, and not your single human ego trapped in one body. What's bad for anyone or anything is supposed to be thought of as bad for "you".

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

I agree with Coolio and Jamshyd. Karma is a frequently misunderstood concept, that has nothing to do with folk beliefs in a just world. It's a way to conceive of individuals' actions, and the ripple effects they send out.

Besides, cosmic reprisal for those who have harmed others is kind of redundant. Those who choose to harm others are already living in a state of pain, imbalance, and a lack of self-knowledge, or else they would not have chosen to inflict harm to begin with. That pained state of being is punishment enough.

 

[malakaix]

Besides, cosmic reprisal for those who have harmed others is kind of redundant. Those who choose to harm others are already living in a state of pain, imbalance, and a lack of self-knowledge, or else they would not have chosen to inflict harm to begin with. That pained state of being is punishment enough.

I never thought of it like that... thankyou for putting the idea of karma into proper perspective

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Our unconscious works in synchronicity with the Universal mind.
We dream, we think, we fantacise and we reap the seeds.
In between all that, our mind prepares and we take the actions at
some stage, without knowing how and when we thought of the words, or
dreamed about them. It is dynamic psychology. As a child, you don't remember
later in life, what you were dreaming of desiring-and suddenly you find yourself following those
unremembered dreams which your mind had plenty of time to prepare you for the way of achiving them.
In the same way, carma works but in the negatives. Karma can be both negative or positive.
It is just that it is the negative that works against us, and hence needs to be worked through and cleared. It was built in our very fabric.
All action is karma, means the effects of actions-we took.

It sometimes means the effects of which our past actions were the causes.
karma mainly refers to one's intention or motivation while doing an action.

whatever you do intentionally to others, a similar thing will happen to yourself in the future.
The largest obstacle to understanding or even believing in karma may be time.
The re-actions or results of our actions show up with a time delay, and it becomes extremely hard to tell which action caused which result.

Actions done in earlier time of our life can create results in the present time of our life, but who can remember their earlier life or in detail-or connect the present reaction to that of the past?

The term karma or action is a term of active energy force which indicates that future events are within your own hands. The use of our free will and hence we are responsible for those choices and actions.

The nature of reality where everything is interrelated and only exists as part of a web of karma and its effect.

Karma actually refers to the-action of the intention but in general usage it includes the intended action and the seeds that are left in the mind as a result.

So when we think to do harm to another-by intention, the thoughts and words work within our very system to the point where they act upon us, by radiating that very same energy of the thought creation. The unconscious at work! In reverse....as it does not recognize outward or inward direction. Pretty much like when we make affirmations, they need to be in positive form and supported by words such as "in good faith". The unconscious is connected to the universal unconscious-as in bringing the action of the thoughts we make-or the fruit of the thoughts.

The most remarkable stories, we don't connect them to the past, we brush them off-good associations show where it originated. ie.,

A husband, took hateful action toward his wife who he was mistreating badly. She was a beautiful soul of a person, and he used her as much as he could-he was hedious. When she could not take it any more, and he was too intense and severe and drained fighting his abuse she left him as she was falling ill. He did everything in his power to destroy her, as his ego/pride could not handle the rejection. He was a total ass. The next woman he married, it all turned around. He went through the crap that he produced upon this previous lady.

Did he learn his lesson? No> Why? Because he did not want to accept responsbility over his bad thoughts and actions upon a beautiful innoscent person. It was repeated again and again and repeated it all the third time. He simply went to blame it on the innoscents who he abused.
They ripped him off his precious money, because he tried to rip them off.

In my work, I see a lot of karma in action!

Babies and little children-is run into their heredity, the bad of the parents is passed onto their children-through heredity.

 

[Hunter_thatsmyname]

Here's some food for thought. Karma does not exist based on the sole fact that no invisible universal guiding power exists. The world, the galaxy, and the universe is chaos (look through a telescope). Any form of karma is human imagination at work. Good day gentleman.

 

[Coolio]

Karma is not invisible nor guiding...

 

[The TimeKeeper]

To those speaking of Hitler's Karma... Here's some odd food for thought... What if Hitler was the reincarnation of Jesus? That way his Karma would be more even by this point. He would have helped many as Jesus, but then murdered many as Hitler too. I did think this up while high on drugs , but Hitler sure did have a grudge against the Jewish. You have to consider then what Jesus was put through by the Jewish. If he had been Jesus before then that would be the only way someone like that could even keep a steady equilibrium of Karma.

I like to think of reincarnation as; we are a spirit embedded in the soul of a human. Once that soul ceases to exist the spirit of that human can freely roam to another soul. My thought was that the spirit of Hitler having been tortured by the Jewish many years ago; eventually at a certain point in time something triggers in the spirit of the Jesus while he is reincarnated as Hitler that lets off a subconscious trigger which travels on down to the conscious of Hitler and there you have the holocaust.

Think of it more from the stand point that was previously mentioned about Karma that things are not so black and white. It is more about how one perceives something. Some may consider Hitler in the same light that others consider Jesus and vice versa.

Hope I haven't offended anybody by this. Not my intention.

 

[Delta-9-THC]

I'd like to pose a question to those who do believe in the existence of the soul and the process of reincarnation. Do all living creatures have souls? Even organisms as simple as parasites or bacteria? Where do you draw the line?

If all creatures or even most of them have souls then it would seem that a huge majority of souls would have to reside in lesser animals at any given time. New souls would also have to be generated at an exponential rate to keep up with the expansion of population.

Also, if our ascension to a higher state is based on the morality of our actions and our understanding of it than how would these animals, who have basically zero sense of morality, ever advance from their current state?