5ht6- music and low serotonin levels

[pofacedhoe]

what say you all.

i personally have noted that the people i know who are the best musical intonation are often people that have low serotonin levels (based around behaviours such as OCD, temper, depression).

is it possible that the lack of serotonin makes them better at music.

5ht6
5ht6
5ht6???

 

[Tsukasa]

Having low serotonin levels increases creativety in my experience. Theirs more mental and emotional activity. It also explains why most good poetry and music is sad.

I also find that in my dreams I can come up with works of art more amazing than anything i've ever seen created, without even knowing I did it at the time - at night the body converts tryptophan more so to melatonin instead of serotonin.

 

[vecktor]

This is neurobiological reductionism, trying to assign say musicality to a receptor or neurotransmitter system is just pushing it far beyond the realms of sense. recently I have seen people here spout a lot of this reductionist opinion. it is plain wrong and a pointless oversimplifiation.

 

[permastoned]

This is neurobiological reductionism, trying to assign say musicality to a receptor or neurotransmitter system is just pushing it far beyond the realms of sense. recently I have seen people here spout a lot of this reductionist opinion. it is plain wrong and a pointless oversimplifiation.

Chill out, he is just making a link, not saying it is the be all and end all. I have also noticed this OP, creative individuals sometimes (not always) behave in a manner that would suggest they have low serotonin levels.

Correlation does not equal causation vecktor. However, our levels of various neurotransmitters are most definitely encoded within our DNA to SOME extent, and these various levels can affect the way that we develop as a child, as they do shape our behaviours to some extent. In this way, ironically, nature has an impact on nurture. Nurture can not have an impact on nature in this same way, so I personally believe that nature (our genes) can do a great deal towards determining who we become as individuals.

 

[nuke]

I'm not sure 5HT6 even has everything (or anything) to do with audio distortion, let alone musical ability.

My guess is musical ability, at least in terms of perfect pitch, is related to exposure to music or environments which encourage tonal differentiation (certain asian languages) in the first 4 or 5 years of life. Hence why people who begin playing instruments at extremely young ages or certain ages populations have very high incidences of perfect pitch. It probably has lots to do with synaptic mapping and brain development and less to do with neurotransmitters.

 

[pofacedhoe]

i just threw in the 5ht6 as i had seen it metioned in relation to sound perception(to see what anyone thought about it), if you note i didn't even say anything about it. what i had noticed though is the correlation with people with low serotonin levels(ocd behaviours for one are a behavioural marker) and musical ability.

for one i myself have what could definitely be described as having low serotonin levels (have pyroluria) and when i hear a lot of noise i can split the sounds into the individual noises very well, like stripping the background off so as to know what someone far away was saying in an environment with loads of people talking loudly.

its probably just random correlation like a lot of things in life but if anyone has anything to offer go for it.

 

[permastoned]

Think about DiPT - it is meant to completely change perceived pitch.. if someone has some sort of error in the pathway that DiPT alters, then they are gonna perceive pitch differently to other people. Hell, we probably all perceive pitch differently to each other; can't tell for sure obviously because all we have are our own reference points.

Anyone know which receptor DiPT causes its auditory effects through? I assumed it was the 5ht2a... the activation of that one little receptor can trigger so many different perceptory pathways, it makes my scientific brain orgasm at the marvel of its own mechanics.

 

[Hammilton]

This is neurobiological reductionism, trying to assign say musicality to a receptor or neurotransmitter system is just pushing it far beyond the realms of sense. recently I have seen people here spout a lot of this reductionist opinion. it is plain wrong and a pointless oversimplifiation.

no really? It's getting insane.

mGlu receptors = psychedelia
and now 5HT6 = musicality

Who knew that neuroarchitecture meant so little.

Where's Leungkachong when you need him?

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

WTF is this "Serotonin levels" shit? When's the last time anyone went inside someone's brain and did a levels check? And who's to say that the concentration of a neurotransmitter is the *real* meat in the complex chain reaction that leads to, say, OCD or depression?

 

[Tsukasa]

^ Theirs ways to roughly estimate 5-HT levels by checking 5-H1AA levels (in urine or something like that), where it's all in one place, thus easier to detect all or most of it. It's one of the metabolites of 5-HT I believe.

 

[Hammilton]

^ It's 5-HIAA or 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid.

 

[Tsukasa]

^ Yea, my bad. that's what I meant.

 

[ebola?]

Theirs ways to roughly estimate 5-HT levels by checking 5-H1AA levels (in urine or something like that), where it's all in one place, thus easier to detect all or most of it. It's one of the metabolites of 5-HT I believe.

And frankly, it's too rough of an indicator to provide useful information for individual cases (rather than to provide data from which to construct statistical averages) in vivo.

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

^^^ That's where I'm at. I was aware of the 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid piss test, but serotonin is *everywhere*. There's tons of serotonergic neurons in the gut, for example. There is, however, no real way to pop in between neurons in the brain and check levels, and even if you could, we have no real idea about whether that's what's -really- going on in the aforementioned disorders.

 

[pofacedhoe]

And frankly, it's too rough of an indicator to provide useful information for individual cases (rather than to provide data from which to construct statistical averages) in vivo.

to be fair its very rough, and i'm not sure how they can prove which came from what part of the body if they even can...

there is loads of serotonin in the gut but it doesn't flow into the brain due to the blood brain barrier.

behaviours that are linked with certain types of serotonin transporter-that result in low levels of serotonin-(which results from a persons genetics) include: violence/anger management problems, type II alcoholism, OCD, Depression, cant remember any others

i dont know why but all the best musicians that I know (maybe its just who i hang around with) often exhibit some varriant on the above mentioned traits (most often OCD and type II alcoholism). behaviour is often the best indicator of neuronal acitvity when it comes to stereotypic behaviours and as mentioned before measuring the metabolites in the urine is all well and good but how do we know which area it came from? if anyone has an answer it would be nice

maybe with the ocd types its the need to practice over and over never feeling that enough has been done. maybe its just that practice makes you better at musical instruments over time and that ocd sets you up for compulsive practicing?



check out this
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...fBs8QL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

http://www.ocfoundation.org/UserFiles/File/Serotonin and OCD.pdf

 

[Tsukasa]

^ I concur with the OCD part. Most elitist musicians are perfectionists. Their music is so incredibly flawless, technical, and in sync that it's sometimes unbelievable. Take aphex twin for example or technical metal bands. I'm a musician myself, so I know how difficult it is to execute certain things perfectly, even with just one instrument.

DA and PEA levels also play a huge part I believe. Notice how most songs you hear on the radio are in some way about romance. When you're in love your DA, PEA, and oxytocin levels rise dramatically. DA plays a large role in creativety (although most mainstream love songs have no originality). It's my observation that dopaminergics greatly increase my musical ability. Adrenergic hormone levels also play a part in determining the speed and mood of the songs I improvise.

 

[pofacedhoe]

^ I concur with the OCD part. Most elitist musicians are perfectionists. Their music is so incredibly flawless, technical, and in sync that it's sometimes unbelievable. Take aphex twin for example or technical metal bands. I'm a musician myself, so I know how difficult it is to execute certain things perfectly, even with just one instrument.

DA and PEA levels also play a huge part I believe. Notice how most songs you hear on the radio are in some way about romance. When you're in love your DA, PEA, and oxytocin levels rise dramatically. DA plays a large role in creativety (although most mainstream love songs have no originality). It's my observation that dopaminergics greatly increase my musical ability. Adrenergic hormone levels also play a part in determining the speed and mood of the songs I improvise.

dopaminergics often make breathing easier and therefore singing, also they CAN help concetration (although too much will fuck it up). i always found it interesting to sing under different influences and note the changes in sound quality.

maybe the imbalance in ratio of serotonin to dopamine (where serotonin is low in comparrison to dopamine) plays a role? anyone want to shoot it down? its always good to throw up weird ideas and you need people who are good at critiquing and pulling the nonsense out of things as much as you need those full of ideas...

 

[Tsukasa]

dopaminergics often make breathing easier and therefore singing, also they CAN help concetration (although too much will fuck it up). i always found it interesting to sing under different influences and note the changes in sound quality.

maybe the imbalance in ratio of serotonin to dopamine (where serotonin is low in comparrison to dopamine) plays a role? anyone want to shoot it down? its always good to throw up weird ideas and you need people who are good at critiquing and pulling the nonsense out of things as much as you need those full of ideas...

I think that's a sound idea. When serotonin levels are decreased, dopamine level tend to be increased, and vice versa. On a mental level, they are sort of like the yin and yang energies. Goes to say how many underground metal bands tend to make very skillfully executed, but tend to be aggressive, angry, and fast vocals and instrumentals (dopamine) with sorrowful/melancholy lyrics (serotonin deficiency).

I guess for artists, mental equilibrium isn't favorable if this theory has truth.

 

[pofacedhoe]

i like to think of neurotransmitters in relation to each other as ratios. when i say low serotonin i mean in relation to dopamine and noradrenaline (monoamines).

all this is ridiculously subjective but once you have been on an ssri (citalopram) for a while you get a feel for the effects of elevated serotonin levels in relation to the other monoamines-in myself i found, lower appetite (could tollerate longer between meals), became very routine oriented(same songs every day, never getting bored), loss of temper and emotions, very vague feelings, music had an eerie sound to it(bland and less thrilling), in short my urge for novel anything dissipated.

 

[ebola?]

i like to think of neurotransmitters in relation to each other as ratios. when i say low serotonin i mean in relation to dopamine and noradrenaline (monoamines).

Also in relation to specific neural circuits, characterized by physical structure, electrical potentials, and non-modulatory neurotransmitters (eg, glutamic acid).

We'll need to wait a good several decades before we'll understand very much.

ebola