How toxic is Mephedrone?

[flacky]

^ It is far from certain that an adrenergic antagonist would help in any way, I would have thought that the mechanism is adrenergic agonism, but it might not be, vanilla cathine appear to be able to cause vasoconstriction in an interesting way.


doi:10.1016/j.vph.2007.03.001

Well, I'm just saying, with the information available to me in this thread before your posted that citation, it would seem that yohimbine would possibly be useful as an OTC antidote.

 

[vecktor]

Well, I'm just saying, with the information available to me in this thread before your posted that citation, it would seem that yohimbine would possibly be useful as an OTC antidote.

possibly, I wouldn't want to bet on it personally though

 

[kfluxsake]

1) The relative absence of initial mdma-like 'come up' sensation on further redosing
and this is evidence of maoi activity- give me a break

2) No significant comedown: miraculous considering the undisputed initial serotonergic effect
yeah you can assign a specific neurochemical action to an experienced effect, bullshit. if that was the case why bother with pharmacology

3) The fact that I experience above effect in its totality despite taking an SSRI daily - something unachievable on mdma
this has absolutely nothing to do with anything, ssris inhibit uptake of MDMA by sert. so how is this evidence of MAOI activity
4) Long action perceptible well into next day
did you read anything about the half life of beta hydroxy amines? how is long action anything like evidence of MAOI activity other drugs which aren't MAOIS can last a while too

1) In the case of someone taking an ssri, yes, quite simply it is. Tell me another mechanism through which i would feel the ABSOLUTELY 100% DEFINITE serotonergic effects.

The point is that with an MAOI you would have the enzyme destroyed on 1st dose, further dosing would not 'further destroy' that enyme, hence the inability to re-experience peak.

2) WHAT? So you're saying you can't feel that amphetamine is dopaminergic/noradrenergoc, mdma serotonergic (with other things going on admittedly) and so on? In that case you can't trust your intuition, I can.

3) Actually SSRIs do not inhibit reuptake of mdma, they block reuptake of serotonin, preventing mdma from releasing it from the vesicles. The evidence for this postulated MAOI action is stated in 1)

4) You may have a point there, and that was my weakest postulation. Probably the residual effects are the ephedrine metabolites, i put my hand up on that one.

THERE IS little evidence since this is completely UNRESEARCHED. You're looking for something you won't find. In the meantime allow people to speculate and contribute, it can only lead to a greater understanding of mephedrone overall.

To conclude: you now have one report of a tangible serotonergic effect experienced in somebody taking an SSRI with mephedrone. That opens up questions don't you think, in that it rules out serotonin release as a primary mode of action; meaning serotonin related toxicity of the sort seen with mdma is highly unlikely . I don't know about anyone else, but I think that is valuable in itself.

 

[lineartransform]

I have found that doses of 400mg to 800mg of l-arginine taken along with the first bomb of mephedrone reduces or eliminates the "cold" feeling that sometimes arises. Perhaps vasoconstriction is reduced.

I cannot provide more proof than this anecdote - but l-arginine is uncontrolled, cheap, and has a good safety profile. Go to a health food store.

 

[vecktor]

1) In the case of someone taking an ssri, yes, quite simply it is. Tell me another mechanism through which i would feel the ABSOLUTELY 100% DEFINITE serotonergic effects.

The point is that with an MAOI you would have the enzyme destroyed on 1st dose, further dosing would not 'further destroy' that enyme, hence the inability to re-experience peak.
I don't follow??? that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

2) WHAT? So you're saying you can't feel that amphetamine is dopaminergic/noradrenergoc, mdma serotonergic (with other things going on admittedly) and so on? In that case you can't trust your intuition, I can.

that is exactly what I am saying, I am aware of a series of chemically similar DAT inhibitors NET/DAT inhibitors and mixed NET/DAT/SE inhibitors- where it is impossible to arrange them based on subjective effects what you think is a SE effect can be DA mediated, NE and DA are difficult to distinguish etc
I don't trust your intuition or your grasp of neuropharmacology

3) Actually SSRIs do not inhibit reuptake of mdma, they block reuptake of serotonin, preventing mdma from releasing it from the vesicles. The evidence for this postulated MAOI action is stated in 1)

I wasn't aware SSRI's work primarily by interfering with VMAT, thats a new one to me. vesicular amine transporter and vesicular amine storage are a system that is not neccessarily effected by drugs that act as inhibitors of synaptic transporters. and vice versa

4) You may have a point there, and that was my weakest postulation. Probably the residual effects are the ephedrine metabolites, i put my hand up on that one.
most of your postulations have no strength whatsoever

THERE IS little evidence since this is completely UNRESEARCHED. You're looking for something you won't find. In the meantime allow people to speculate and contribute, it can only lead to a greater understanding of mephedrone overall.

unlikely, if people want to speculate and hypothesise it helps if their speculation fits with the limited evidence available.
So far in this entire thread I am the only one who has actually bothered to look at the literature. I went I looked and whilst I haven't reached a conclusion I found things that concern me, so I posted it complete with references so people can look for themselves. On the other hand so far you have posted nonsensical ramblings based on subjective musing

To conclude: you now have one report of a tangible serotonergic effect experienced in somebody taking an SSRI with mephedrone. That opens up questions don't you think, in that it rules out serotonin release as a primary mode of action; meaning serotonin related toxicity of the sort seen with mdma is highly unlikely . I don't know about anyone else, but I think that is valuable in itself.

All this assumes that your subjective assessement has any real validity, it doesn't. you should offer your services to Pharmaceutical companies radioligand assays are expensive, you could just taste the compound and tell them, save a whole lot of money for them.

IMHO the whole neurotoxicity idea is a red herring, it is the cardiovascular toxicity that has presented itself repeatedly, high blood pressure especially for 2 days at a time -yes I looked at your other posts is really not good for you and your organs particularly the kidneys



Used in moderation this drug is probably not that harmful, however it clearly has a potential to be dangerous, and reminds me a lot in that way of when 4-MTA came onto the scene in 98 and 99. I have been around a long long time

I hate to have to take the position of demolishing the crap that has been posted, I have reached no specific conclusions as of now, so far I have some serious misgivings about this drug. someone give me some sound reasoning and some logic. please

 

[flacky]

I have found that doses of 400mg to 800mg of l-arginine taken along with the first bomb of mephedrone reduces or eliminates the "cold" feeling that sometimes arises. Perhaps vasoconstriction is reduced.

I cannot provide more proof than this anecdote - but l-arginine is uncontrolled, cheap, and has a good safety profile. Go to a health food store.

Hmm, I forgot about L-Arginine. That's actually a really good idea. L-Arginine should promote Nitric Oxide synthesis in the body and thus vasodilation. Have you had any experience with taking the L-Arginine after the dose as a sort-of antidote or only as a prophylactic measure?

 

[Sykik]

Vecktor,
I must admit I have no new knowledge to contribute to this ADD of mephedrone. However I would like to sincerely thank you for your effort in highlighting some of the potential threats, and suggesting a maximum safeish dose, and don't worry I'm not taking your advice as Gospel. As this did help me when I dosed this particular drug the other night, i would of dosed around 300mg as I was afraid to dose higher due to the metabolites involved.

I really enjoyed the drug, and I know that dosing in quick succession is ill advised, and without your input I may of seen myself going out the next night and dosing again. So thank you Vector, and let's hope people with equal reasoning skills as yourself give intellectual input into this discussion, so that users like myself, can minimize harm. Thank-You

 

[Coolio]

you should offer your services to pharmaceutical companies radioligand assays are expensive, you could just taste the compound and tell them, save a whole lot of money for them.

lol

 

[kfluxsake]

Fair cop. Good luck on saving the world from a benign chemical, and you're right about the neurotoxicity issue being a 'red herring': not one anecdotal report i've come across has hinted at post-mephedrone lapses in cognition, memory loss, dysphoria et al. (when dosed sensibly) which is a far cry, say, from mdma.

W have a recreational compound that poses little observable danger to the brain and body besides perhaps a little vasoconstriction at very high doses. I'm down with that.

Personally i couldn't give a rat's arse if something gave me high blood pressure or caused a little vasoconstriction, so do coke/all other uppers. In my own experience neither symptoms have even come close to problematic at average/high doses over extended periods.

My only caveat would be to keep a beta-blocker like propranolol handy and a benzo for sleep.

Update: It occurred to me (too late) that you are correct to cite a lack of significant maoi effect, but failed to identify the one blaringly obvious reason why: taking SSRI with an maoi, I would almost certainly have experienced serotonin syndrome, or symptoms to that effect, which I did not.

 

[pofacedhoe]

^mephedrone in my experience has a lot of the same probelems that arise from mdma use afterwards the biggest one being a vicious temper (though happy with it) and poor impulse control.

its not benign in fact from the reaction i have seen by friends of mine after one line its every bit as addictive as cocaine. one friends comment- "ow this stuff really isnt good for your nose, wtf?", followed an hour later by "wheres the meph lets have more now!"

we dont know how it works and why when i find coke unattractive i cannot leave meph alone even in the presence of obvious physical side effects...

 

[pofacedhoe]

I hate to have to take the position of demolishing the crap that has been posted, I have reached no specific conclusions as of now, so far I have some serious misgivings about this drug. someone give me some sound reasoning and some logic. please

the reason you are not reciveing any logical response is that combined with the NO INFORMATION available people are trying desperately to defend themselves from the worry that doing to much meph clearly causes as instinct tells us that taking hard drugs is bad. its like people making up superstition.

 

[kfluxsake]

the reason you are not reciveing any logical response is that combined with the NO INFORMATION available people are trying desperately to defend themselves from the worry that doing to much meph clearly causes as instinct tells us that taking hard drugs is bad. its like people making up superstition.

That sounds like projection if ever i heard it

 

[pofacedhoe]

That sounds like projection if ever i heard it

oh yeah, youre right. i'm the worst for twisting things to suit my own fears and what i see in myself i see in others

defending meph with no real knowledge though shows the grip it has on people(myself included). although it seems well tolerated the addictive potential is big

 

[vortex30]

What's the point of defending a stimulant with MDMA properties that you abuse? Does it give you piece of mind or something? Just accept that you're OBVIOUSLY taking a risk and that if you're a causality, well, many people saw it coming. Its not like you weren't forewarned.

 

[lineartransform]

What's the point of defending a stimulant with MDMA properties that you abuse? Does it give you piece of mind or something? Just accept that you're OBVIOUSLY taking a risk and that if you're a causality, well, many people saw it coming. Its not like you weren't forewarned.

I would disagree - this seems to be based on nothing more than a Protestant projection of "unearned" happiness, which must necessarily be accompanied by a corresponding down.

Mephedrone certainly has a rather uncertain safety profile, but just because it feels good doesn't mean it must have terrible effects later. It is a risk. But there seems to be far too much "feeling" that mephedrone must be bad without a corresponding rationale absent emotion / appeal to existing bias.

 

[YaniCZka]

sorry guys, probably a bit too simple question for such a scientific discussion, but since you all seem to be very wise on the topic, which vitamins / supplements would you suggest to preload / use after the meph session? Thks

 

[kfluxsake]

I would disagree - this seems to be based on nothing more than a Protestant projection of "unearned" happiness, which must necessarily be accompanied by a corresponding down.

Mephedrone certainly has a rather uncertain safety profile, but just because it feels good doesn't mean it must have terrible effects later. It is a risk. But there seems to be far too much "feeling" that mephedrone must be bad without a corresponding rationale absent emotion / appeal to existing bias.

Ontology/religion aside, It's true there's no such thing as a free lunch.

I haven't taken any for a week. I expected an order to arrive which has been delayed, and did await its arrival far too eagerly. But I'm now glad the wheels of commerce didn't run so smoothly, as if they had, I think I would have gone on a binge, and subsequently wouldn't have the clarity of mind I'm enjoying now.

As sure is the sky is blue ,any mood altering substance will carry rebound effects. I suppose all I'm saying is that, with this particular one, the stakes are not so high as for mdma and coke, even at levels of drug piggery *for this poster*, with regard to subsequent effects on mood. I would like to know if it has latent, possibly less easily perceived effects on the user 1,2,3 weeks down the line.

I would also like it if the majority of recreational drug users/clubbers were able to have ready access to safer alternatives to impure ecstasy tablets and mdma, I think my defence of mepehdrone reflects this.

That it will certainly carry its own risks and post-use difficulties, nobody will pretend to deny, but it might be a lesser of an array of evils. Only time will tell...

 

[kfluxsake]

sorry guys, probably a bit too simple question for such a scientific discussion, but since you all seem to be very wise on the topic, which vitamins / supplements would you suggest to preload / use after the meph session? Thks

Dunno. Maybe an ssri post-use? That might be ineffective however if the drug turns out to not have any relevant affinity for SERT. Otherwise, a benzo to smoothen the landing is wise, and a beta-blocker if you run into any problems w tachychardia.

 

[kfluxsake]

What's f+b's view on this particular little fellow I wonder?

 

[vortex30]

I would disagree - this seems to be based on nothing more than a Protestant projection of "unearned" happiness, which must necessarily be accompanied by a corresponding down.

Mephedrone certainly has a rather uncertain safety profile, but just because it feels good doesn't mean it must have terrible effects later. It is a risk. But there seems to be far too much "feeling" that mephedrone must be bad without a corresponding rationale absent emotion / appeal to existing bias.

Seriously? Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful. If we were talking about Opiates or THC then you've got a point, but a powerful stimulant like Mephedrone is, no matter WHAT, doing damage to both your brain and your body (heart). Where is this coming from, that I'm taking some completely unsupported stance? The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity. Unless you have something to counter this with, please save me the "Protestant projection".

The question is HOW toxic is Mephedrone, not IS Mephedrone toxic for a reason. If you actually think there is even a small chance that Mephedrone could be a completely benign drug (health wise) such as Opiates, then err, I dunno, start researching drugs more.