[MEGA] God

[Enlitx]

To this i agree. It is simply the half empty/half full debate. They aren't mutually exclusive, and even though something cannot be "supported by anything in this world", it doesn't mean that we cannot somehow (no one knows how)sense/experience/connect with it.

The question becomes what is likely happening? The fact that scientists have documented these feelings of paranormal events, tied them to certain neurlogoical functions, and have even been able to induce such experiences strongly suggests it is a product of brain function, not an actual connection to paranormal phenomena. I understand that people would like to believe that they are actually experiencing paranormal events. Without a good understanding of scientific literature, I am sure that is the most likely explanation to them.

For several years i saw things as being determined by the laws we understand, but over time it seemed very lacking, it was as though i was consciously lying to myself. i felt that it was an urge of pride to have a deluded sense that we can understand all things.

It doesn't make much sense to think this considering, logically speaking, how small and insignificant we are in the grand scheme of things.

Oh we most definetely don't know everything. There are so many things yet to be determined. That still doesen't mean that people experiencing very common mystical events somehow are connecting with unknown things. Like I said, it all comes down to what is likely happening. Without science, I am sure schizophrenics would have been thought of as somehow connected to a different world, but it just doesen't work that way anymore.

Here is the problem in this thread. To some of us, you have demonstrably shown that you really have little comprehension of what we are talking about, yet you give this certain assurance that you understand completely. As long as you are so sure of this, you will not be listening to what we are saying.

But you want us to trust you, to have faith in your assurance?

now that is irony.

Nope, I get it. I fully understand how people would think they have psychic abilities, precognition, etc... I also understand what is likely happening. For example, with precognition, people think that their dreams are predicting what happens in the future. In reality, people find patterns because that is what our brain does. So, anytime X years after a dream, anything at all that happens might be related to your dream. Those are pretty good odds. Not only that, dreams aren't stored in memory very well, so you may actually alter the memory of your dream to fit the circumstances at hand. See, I get it, I just don't believe it.

I didn't mean you should literally trust me, it was just common phrase. My posts should indicate what I am trying to say.

 

[Enlitx]

Never claimed to.

Never calimed that you claimed to. Just a question.

I wasn't talking about what MynameisnotDeja reported. I was actually thinking of your example of moving things with your mind. (edit: well actually, I take that back, I have seen a poltergeist at work, and it chilled me to the fucking bone) I'm not talking about people claiming to break physical laws. I'm talking about people getting a taste of what just may lay beyond physical laws.

She said that someone she knew could move things their mind, that is what I was referring to. So are you going to flatly deny her claim, or are you really too sensitive to try and step on anyone's toes? That doesn't foster healthy debate.

All the examples I gave you are things that could leave no trace in the physical world, or none we're currently able to detect.

Yep, neither can string theory. Not all theories are equal.

To problems in the physical world, of practical importance to people, most definitely apply Occam's razor. But if there's no way to calculate the probability of anything metaphysical, it becomes pretty much impossible to assess and compare any likelihoods, and anything is really possible.

You can still use Occam's razor. I fail to see the distinction. It is employed all the time with the question of god, which is a very metaphysical inquiry.

I see no reason why not to hope for more, and why not let my mind run wild with possibilities.

You can hope all you want, but don't expect anyone to think that it is anything more than the product of delusional thinking and emotional need. Because that is exactly what it is, by the very definition of hope.

They can be. They often are. But they aren't necessarily. I told you.

I would hope they would be if you are really to become a doctor.

No schizophrenic presents with this as their only symptom. It's not that simple.

Never said it was. But if those symptoms were all you could deduce from one visit, it would warrant further tests. My point still stands, just because someone isn't having a problem at that particular moment in time doesen't mean it is OK to just let them go, whatever the disease may be.

Limelight? I only talked about giving them a pathway to health, and a compassionate ear. And just so we're crystal, yes, I think it is perfectly possible to have paranormal experiences and to have no clinical diagnosis of any kind, that is, to be in perfect health.

You have suggested that every idea, no matter how improbable, should be considered in an equal fashion. Number one, as a future doctor, you cannot afford that luxury. Certain grandiose or deluded thinking will warrant your care. Number two, not every idea is the product of healthy thinking or normal deductions.

Paranormal experiences thus far have been the product of either liars or people who are sick. As a people, we have pulled ourselves out of the hell hole life was in the dark ages, with all the mysticism and claims of paranormal contact. Good people died in the inquisitions and Salem witch trials because people were actually believing in this shit en masse. I am just glad most people aren't like that anymore in industrialized nations.

 

[Enlitx]

yeah man after all since our ships havent made it to America yet the world must be flat..

Actually, the Greeks predicted the world was round long before Colombus. The Europeans made a fricking globe before America was ever discovered for fuck's sake.

Wanna know how they did it? Logical deduction. They didn't make a globe because they considered every far out theory. They looked at what theories were logical and had good support. I mean, technically, any theory at that point could have been true, but just like I have been saying along, it is the probability that matters. Thanks for helping me prove my point though.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Nope, I get it. I fully understand how people would think they have psychic abilities, precognition, etc... I also understand what is likely happening. For example, with precognition, people think that their dreams are predicting what happens in the future. In reality, people find patterns because that is what our brain does. So, anytime X years after a dream, anything at all that happens might be related to your dream. Those are pretty good odds. Not only that, dreams aren't stored in memory very well, so you may actually alter the memory of your dream to fit the circumstances at hand. See, I get it, I just don't believe it.

I get what you mean, but my pre-cog experiences have been WAY too drastic to be "coincidences" (I put that word in quotes because it's a word you would use, but I personally don't believe in coincidences at all). I only wrote a few of them out in the other thread.

Yeah I could see something randomly happening that is weird once in awhile, but I mean, what are the chances of dreaming vividly about someone you haven't seen or thought about in years, and then running into them the next day? Now what are the chances of this happening as often as this has happened to me? (a lot, more times than I can count)

I agree we look for patterns but I also feel some patterns are just boldly THERE, there's no denying it. And I'm not saying I'm so magical and special or anything, I think everyone taps into what I call this "grid of synchronicity" somewhat, some just more than others.

Also, for the record, I don't forget most of my dreams. When I have a dream that means something to me (In whatever way, even if it just feels like my subconscious is trying to tell me something) I write it down so I can ponder it. I also have an amazing memory, I can still remember in detail dreams I had as a small child..

 

[L2R]

The question becomes what is likely happening? The fact that scientists have documented these feelings of paranormal events, tied them to certain neurlogoical functions, and have even been able to induce such experiences strongly suggests it is a product of brain function, not an actual connection to paranormal phenomena. I understand that people would like to believe that they are actually experiencing paranormal events. Without a good understanding of scientific literature, I am sure that is the most likely explanation to them.



Oh we most definetely don't know everything. There are so many things yet to be determined. That still doesen't mean that people experiencing very common mystical events somehow are connecting with unknown things. Like I said, it all comes down to what is likely happening. Without science, I am sure schizophrenics would have been thought of as somehow connected to a different world, but it just doesen't work that way anymore.

As MDAO states, despite your contrary declaration, occam's razor doesn't work when you are trying to equate parts which may be unquantifiable.

Nope, I get it. I fully understand how people would think they have psychic abilities, precognition, etc... I also understand what is likely happening. For example, with precognition, people think that their dreams are predicting what happens in the future. In reality, people find patterns because that is what our brain does. So, anytime X years after a dream, anything at all that happens might be related to your dream. Those are pretty good odds. Not only that, dreams aren't stored in memory very well, so you may actually alter the memory of your dream to fit the circumstances at hand. See, I get it, I just don't believe it.

I didn't mean you should literally trust me, it was just common phrase. My posts should indicate what I am trying to say.

No, you do not fully understand. You will not fully understand what we are talking about without having experienced these things yourself.

I get what you mean, but my pre-cog experiences have been WAY too drastic to be "coincidences" (I put that word in quotes because it's a word you would use, but I personally don't believe in coincidences at all). I only wrote a few of them out in the other thread.

Same here.

 

[yougene]

oo, this looks fun.

Their experiences go hand in hand with my view of reality. Psychology and neuroscience predict that people will believe in fantastical things that aren't real because of emotional reasons. There are clinical tests that ask whether or not you see demons, hear voices, or believe you have psychic abilities. Scientists have long predicted a percentage of the population will experience these events because of the way their brain works. They have attached specific conditions to these specific behaviors. Recent scientific advancements have been able to induce mystical experiences with electromagnetic waves. What I have been trying to point out is that these kinds of experiences are most likely indicative of altered brain function, not an insight into a metaphysical world that most aren't privy to.

The reasoning you have provided here is also a product of your brain activity. Does that somehow disqualify your reasoning and experience? The fact that peak states of consciousness have qualitatively different brain activity is a big "no shit".

All this shows is that these experiences do exist and they are a unique mode of experiencing.

It sounds like you are implying that the absence of such brain activity would be needed to qualify these peak state experiences. What is your logic there?

The question becomes what is likely happening? The fact that scientists have documented these feelings of paranormal events, tied them to certain neurlogoical functions, and have even been able to induce such experiences strongly suggests it is a product of brain function, not an actual connection to paranormal phenomena. I understand that people would like to believe that they are actually experiencing paranormal events. Without a good understanding of scientific literature, I am sure that is the most likely explanation to them.

1) Again, everyday life experience have correlate neurological activity. This doesn't say that much either way.

2) On what grounds are you making the claim these experiences are feelings?

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

No, you do not fully understand. You will not fully understand what we are talking about without having experienced these things yourself.

I agree. I think Enlitx can understand what HE/she(?) (you are a he right? Sorry I don't know why I assumed that) THINKS our experiences must have been like from his perspective. But what isn't being understood here, is you simply CANT understand without having the experience. There is an x factor of instinct and intuition involved which I do truly think you have to feel to understand.

The reasoning you have provided here is also a product of your brain activity. Does that somehow disqualify your reasoning and experience? The fact that peak states of consciousness have qualitatively different brain activity is a big "no shit".

All this shows is that these experiences do exist and they are a unique mode of experiencing.

It sounds like you are implying that the absence of such brain activity would be needed to qualify these peak state experiences. What is your logic there?

EXACTLY. Thankkk youuu! Yes, this is just what I have been trying to say. To me the fact that "something is happening" in the brain only confirms that the person is experiencing something legitimate.

I have had experiences that go beyond anything I've ever heard talked about by most people. Real, physical experiences. I don't talk about these experiences often because they were traumatizing and being ridiculed or people implying I am a liar or psycho because I don't have "proof" is just too much. I've been hurt, physically hurt, by something that was not human(or at least not a human in its normal form). I don't claim to fully understand all that is out there, all I know is that there is a hell of a lot out there than most people know. All I can say Enlitx, is be glad you have lived a life where you have the opportunity to be oblivious to such things.

 

[L2R]

^indeed.

often i find my sensitivity to synchronicity to be akin to a torturous living hell and wouldn't wish it on anyone. it does my head in terribly.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

I love synchronicity personally. I think it's so cool.

 

[L2R]

i'm not as comfortable with undermined reality

 

[mr_p]

what are the chances of dreaming vividly about someone you haven't seen or thought about in years, and then running into them the next day?

I think everyone taps into what I call this "grid of synchronicity" somewhat, some just more than others.

or dreaming of chilling with your best mate in high school you hadn't heard from, seen or thought about in many years then to find that he tried to get in touch during the night ...

or feeling to act on the desire to learn to climb trees whilst living in a small coastal village and having the next person you hitch a ride with happen to have 17 years experiences and more then willing to teach the art of arboreal climbing ...

the list is endless ....

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

She said that someone she knew could move things their mind, that is what I was referring to. So are you going to flatly deny her claim, or are you really too sensitive to try and step on anyone's toes? That doesn't foster healthy debate.

I entertain the possibility there's something to what she claims about her friend. Perhaps not what appears at face value, but I don't know. I'd have to see it happen, or fail to happen, to make up my mind.

This is my kitchen, and I serve up plenty of good healthy debate, don't you worry %)

Yep, neither can string theory. Not all theories are equal.

You can still use Occam's razor. I fail to see the distinction. It is employed all the time with the question of god, which is a very metaphysical inquiry.

When you get right down to it, Occam's razor, when wielded by the most hardnosed and practical of people, actually cuts away all metaphysical inquiry entirely. After all, it's not necessary to assume ANY metaphysical position, including yours, for getting things done and making decisions in the real world. The most practical of people would consider this whole discussion, and much of this whole forum, a waste of time and a distraction from action.

So as soon as we even bring up the subject of things that exist beyond the physical, we've thrown Occam's razor out the window.

You can hope all you want, but don't expect anyone to think that it is anything more than the product of delusional thinking and emotional need. Because that is exactly what it is, by the very definition of hope.

Do you really expect people to stand there and listen to you tell them they are delusional and needy? Those are fighting words, that show disrespect. I also happen to think that we sentient beings have it in our bones to reach for something higher and beyond our mundane existence. But note the way I phrased this.

I would hope they would be if you are really to become a doctor.

Good thing hope to you is just delusional thinking.

Never said it was. But if those symptoms were all you could deduce from one visit, it would warrant further tests. My point still stands, just because someone isn't having a problem at that particular moment in time doesen't mean it is OK to just let them go, whatever the disease may be.

You misunderstand how medicine works. The burden of proof for deeming something pathological hinges on showing impaired functioning and decreased quality of life. This is especially true of psychiatric diagnoses.

You have suggested that every idea, no matter how improbable, should be considered in an equal fashion.

No. I have suggested that once we leave the realm of the physical and quantifiable, we have no basis for quantitatively assessing probability.

Number one, as a future doctor, you cannot afford that luxury. Certain grandiose or deluded thinking will warrant your care. Number two, not every idea is the product of healthy thinking or normal deductions.

Paranormal experiences thus far have been the product of either liars or people who are sick. As a people, we have pulled ourselves out of the hell hole life was in the dark ages, with all the mysticism and claims of paranormal contact. Good people died in the inquisitions and Salem witch trials because people were actually believing in this shit en masse. I am just glad most people aren't like that anymore in industrialized nations.

Let's assume for a second that nothing ultimately matters. No cosmic plans, no ultimate purpose to anything. What basis, then, have we for saying that post-Enlightenment people have inherently 'better' existences than pre-Enlightenment people. Or that anyone's life is better-lived than anyone else's? Seems to me in this scenario, I'm free to do / speak / think / believe as I please, as do you, and neither of us has any grounds for criticizing the way the other lives his life or makes up his mind.

Which brings me to my final point. Feel free to not be my patient. Feel free to encourage others not to be my patients. That's no skin off my back. My work will speak for itself.

I understand why you think as you do, and I don't have any disrespect for your point of view, even though I don't hold it. I don't feel you reciprocating, though. You've painted hope, faith, and subjective experience in a wholly negative light. You've attacked my professional competence, even though what I told you is straight from my training. And most infuriating of all, you've made me repeat myself multiple times. I'm a big boy -- I can take it. (You're not the first to take me to task as you have, and you won't be the last. It keeps me on my toes.) But don't wonder why a lot of posters here don't dig you.

 

[FrostyMcFailure]

What basis, then, have we for saying that post-Enlightenment people have inherently 'better' existences than pre-Enlightenment people.

God damn it this type of thinking is why a certain Gov is controlled by wealthy sadistic luciferians who behave the way they do.. The mere fact we're here and not a mass of nothingness, the gift of life is not enough "evidence" for some. Why would "something"(the universe) appear from nothing, for fun(?). there's a variable outside our realm of logic at play & you dont exactly walk down the street see an ant hill & attempt to "prove your existence by there standards just to make sure everyone gets it".

 

[SececaRD]

People only know what they beleive. People can only teach what they know. This is the kind of subject that really cant be discussed cause it will end up in an argument. when it comes to God and Deity beleifs people arnt willing to waver cause these are eternal beleifs. The things of God are eternal. Even the Holy bible says not to argue over Scriptures, or argue over Jesus or God. This type of discussion will never end up being solved, its pointless.

 

[treezy z]

i believe in and love with all my heart God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. i am quite different from most Christians though because i only pay attention to the gospels, the rest of the new testament i don't really consider valid and distorts the message with puritanical stuff that there is no need for and in some ways violates Christ's teachings imo.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

or dreaming of chilling with your best mate in high school you hadn't heard from, seen or thought about in many years then to find that he tried to get in touch during the night ...

or feeling to act on the desire to learn to climb trees whilst living in a small coastal village and having the next person you hitch a ride with happen to have 17 years experiences and more then willing to teach the art of arboreal climbing ...

the list is endless ....

Yes! Synchronicity. It's beautiful. ANd I don't think it's magical or supernatural either, I think it's the way life works. That's why I said I don't believe in coincidences. The more we allow ourselves to feel synchronicity the more it aligns with us.

Over the years it's grown more and more and now these sorts of things truly happen to me all the time.

I entertain the possibility there's something to what she claims about her friend. Perhaps not what appears at face value, but I don't know.

Thank you.

You misunderstand how medicine works. The burden of proof for deeming something pathological hinges on showing impaired functioning and decreased quality of life. This is especially true of psychiatric diagnoses.

Exactly. This was the point I was trying to make in that maybe some people with mental "illness" simply have brains that show them too much and they freak out. Then Enlitx said that perhaps I was schizophrenic as I have some of the symptoms. And I said okay, well if thats the case thats cool because I'm a happy, well balanced person with a beautiful life. And he said something about schizophrenics not having miserable lives.

Well this is just the way I see it, but if nothing is wrong, and the person is well balanced and happy, that isn't a mental disease. I mean, you could have an imbalance that makes you insanely happy all the time but is that a disease? To me, disease implies something being wrong. Think about the roots of the word. Dis-ease.

My point is, plenty if not most of the people I know who have had supernatural, psychic or other paranormal experiences are not people with dis-ease.

I understand why you think as you do, and I don't have any disrespect for your point of view, even though I don't hold it. I don't feel you reciprocating, though. You've painted hope, faith, and subjective experience in a wholly negative light. You've attacked my professional competence, even though what I told you is straight from my training. And most infuriating of all, you've made me repeat myself multiple times. I'm a big boy -- I can take it. (You're not the first to take me to task as you have, and you won't be the last. It keeps me on my toes.) But don't wonder why a lot of posters here don't dig you.

++++

WIN.

God damn it this type of thinking is why a certain Gov is controlled by wealthy sadistic luciferians who behave the way they do.. The mere fact we're here and not a mass of nothingness, the gift of life is not enough "evidence" for some. Why would "something"(the universe) appear from nothing, for fun(?). there's a variable outside our realm of logic at play & you dont exactly walk down the street see an ant hill & attempt to "prove your existence by there standards just to make sure everyone gets it".

People only know what they beleive. People can only teach what they know. This is the kind of subject that really cant be discussed cause it will end up in an argument. when it comes to God and Deity beleifs people arnt willing to waver cause these are eternal beleifs. The things of God are eternal. Even the Holy bible says not to argue over Scriptures, or argue over Jesus or God. This type of discussion will never end up being solved, its pointless.

I disagree with this. When people are open minded and respectful of each other, these sorts of discussions can be very interesting and thought provoking. My only problem was the lack of respect for my views, not the opposing viewpoints. I find opposing viewpoints interesting as they give me a perspective impossible to see otherwise. I actually really have been enjoying these discussions in here, as frustrating as they can be sometimes.

i believe in and love with all my heart God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. i am quite different from most Christians though because i only pay attention to the gospels, the rest of the new testament i don't really consider valid and distorts the message with puritanical stuff that there is no need for and in some ways violates Christ's teachings imo.

Awesome. Refreshing and lovely, thank you. I feel similar. If only all Christians were brave enough to free their minds and hearts and just know LOVE, the way you do. Many of them are fearful and cling so desperately word for word to the Bible. If they just let go they could see the real message.

 

[SececaRD]

Cling word for word. Jesus is the Word. The word was made flesh. Read this scripture and study. This is the basis of Christianity. If your a Christian you follow "Cling to Jesus" which is the word. You can study this scripture for 10 years and still not get eveything out of it.

John 1

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,[a]
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it

 

[mr_p]

^ the essence of Christianity is

you could study the scriptures for your entire life and STILL miss the point.

You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts. I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something.

Richard Feynman (1918 - 1988)

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Cool quote!

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Premonition, intuition, synchronicity are the great elements of the unconscious in conjunction with nature which aligns fields and brings them into consciousness and makes them connect. Great power as well as spooky!