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Bupe: The Less Is More Myth Exposed

Z Y G G Y said:
Sub will be available in generic form this year in October. Hooray!!!
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This is now the third person on Bluelight that has claimed that a generic form of buprenorphine will be available later this year, but none of them will post a source or explain how they know. The first one I saw a few weeks ago claimed it would be available in July.

Where'd you hear this?
 
this is turning into a really interesting thread, i also alone with you (forman christopher) have developed the monkey brain from yrs of abuse, it is what makes us addicts , i am older now but will honestly say the drug dealers have just changed for me (from going on street to going to doctors) i truly feel that subutex should be started in the office and not just given a script to take home to, my doctor at least did this, but i think if he would have checked my cows after the first eight mgs he would have seen i was feeling better, i dont look down on anyone on subutex i think it is great after spending almost eight yrs on methadone, its awesome not to have to be in that enviroment day after day, and at least with sub there eventually does come a ceiling dose, with methadone shit the sky is the limit, to have bupe work for you you need to have more than just the drug because after the initial first times using it you dont feel anything really, its all a matter of one's self to decide what dose they feel comfortable on, i have countless times tried the less is more theory and i dont know if its my "monkey brain" or what but it dont work for me that well, places like this are wonderful for us to talk about these things, we could research and research all we want but remember the mind is very powerful so if someone comes in and sees someone saying oh i feel better on six mgs than i did at higher dose , this person may feel oh wow subutex isnt working for me , it all comes down to how YOU feel with your dose, not what someone in bl says works for them, god i dont know if i made sense at all lol i tend to ramble hypermania so i am sorry lol, guess what i am trying to say is do what you think is right not what drug companies tell you ashla
 
bow-viper1 said:
This is now the third person on Bluelight that has claimed that a generic form of buprenorphine will be available later this year, but none of them will post a source or explain how they know. The first one I saw a few weeks ago claimed it would be available in July.

Where'd you hear this?
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I saw it posted in a phamracy a few days ago. it said it will be avaible in 2009, i dunno whch month tho.
 
http://www.drugpatentwatch.com/premium/preview/NDA/index.php?020733

That has to do with when the patent expires (10/8/09), assuming there has been no extension granted. I don't know if there will actually be any generic pills at that time though. I'm not sure how that works.
There's at least a date that the patent expires, so people know where this information is coming from. People could easily change "end patent" to "begin generic" so you never know.
 
ashla said:
this is turning into a really interesting thread, i also alone with you (forman christopher) have developed the monkey brain from yrs of abuse, it is what makes us addicts , i am older now but will honestly say the drug dealers have just changed for me (from going on street to going to doctors) i truly feel that subutex should be started in the office and not just given a script to take home to, my doctor at least did this, but i think if he would have checked my cows after the first eight mgs he would have seen i was feeling better,
Click to expand...

Monkey brain? I'm trying to understand, is this slang for an actual condition?

I also am not sure what you mean by "checked my cows". It could be a typo though, lol.
 
ashla said:
this is turning into a really interesting thread, i also alone with you (forman christopher) have developed the monkey brain from yrs of abuse, it is what makes us addicts , i am older now but will honestly say the drug dealers have just changed for me (from going on street to going to doctors) i truly feel that subutex should be started in the office and not just given a script to take home to, my doctor at least did this, but i think if he would have checked my cows after the first eight mgs he would have seen i was feeling better, i dont look down on anyone on subutex i think it is great after spending almost eight yrs on methadone, its awesome not to have to be in that enviroment day after day, and at least with sub there eventually does come a ceiling dose, with methadone shit the sky is the limit, to have bupe work for you you need to have more than just the drug because after the initial first times using it you dont feel anything really, its all a matter of one's self to decide what dose they feel comfortable on, i have countless times tried the less is more theory and i dont know if its my "monkey brain" or what but it dont work for me that well, places like this are wonderful for us to talk about these things, we could research and research all we want but remember the mind is very powerful so if someone comes in and sees someone saying oh i feel better on six mgs than i did at higher dose , this person may feel oh wow subutex isnt working for me , it all comes down to how YOU feel with your dose, not what someone in bl says works for them, god i dont know if i made sense at all lol i tend to ramble hypermania so i am sorry lol, guess what i am trying to say is do what you think is right not what drug companies tell you ashla

;) Couldn't have said it better. Really happy too for the people who don't have insurance, or public aid, now that buprenophine is going generic soon (so I hear). Where I live, it's $178 for 30, 8mg tabs. (BiMart).

Ashla....experimented once again yesterday with taking an extra 1/2 tab, about 6 hrs after my normal morning 8mg pill. I'll tell ya, some days it works great, feeling all euphoric and energized. But then other days it doesn't. At times I'll get that feeling that I always will remember of "doing too much". For me, when I've done too much Suboxone, it makes me really uncomfortable, like close to a spaced-out weed feeling almost. Hard to describe. And I get pissed off because I have then wasted the medicine. Oh well, what can I say...I'm a junkie, and even in recovery, I'm still listening to my monkey brain and giving him too much power at times. It could be worse of course, but it's still no excuse and there's NO justification for it.
Peace to all...:D
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Johnny blue said:
Monkey brain? I'm trying to understand, is this slang for an actual condition?

I also am not sure what you mean by "checked my cows". It could be a typo though, lol.

Johnny- the "monkey brain" business is something that I was referring to that a counselor described, when it comes to junkies jonesing. It was his way of describing that part of the brain where Relapse starts, where we begin to think about using. Make better sense? And I can't speak for Ashla, but when she refers to "cows", I believe it's some type of test that shows possibly(?) where she's at in w/d, or how high her tolerance is maybe? Like you, I believe it's just not being spelled right, but I understood what she meant anyway. At least I hope I did?:( Help? I've read a ton of your posts, and I'm sure you can help, right?
Thanks~
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checking your cows means checking to see how bad withdrawal is, like they check your blood pressure, they check your pupils to see if they are dialated, they check your heart rate things like that, i think somewhere in here in blue light you can find a cows chart, and i just got the term monkey brain from christopher, i mean by monkey brain that even if we feel good we want more, it is the addiction in us ,
 
Thanks for clarifying Chris. Just curiosity as I had never heard the term before.

As far as helping I'm not really sure what you are referring to. I gather that you're trying to modify your dose to better suit your budget? I know it may not be the best thing for an addict to do but find that snorting a smaller dose has great effect on me personally and may be worth a try. That said I wouldn't go railing a whole 8mg tab, that would probably have me puking from the powder alone. I hope you find something that works for you and would love to help the best I can as I'm sure others would, I think we could use a bit more info though.

* I noticed your quotes coming through a bit strange. Try using the quote button on the bottom of the post you want instead of copy/paste*
 
Johnny blue said:
Thanks for clarifying Chris. Just curiosity as I had never heard the term before.

As far as helping I'm not really sure what you are referring to. I gather that you're trying to modify your dose to better suit your budget? I know it may not be the best thing for an addict to do but find that snorting a smaller dose has great effect on me personally and may be worth a try. That said I wouldn't go railing a whole 8mg tab, that would probably have me puking from the powder alone. I hope you find something that works for you and would love to help the best I can as I'm sure others would, I think we could use a bit more info though.

* I noticed your quotes coming through a bit strange. Try using the quote button on the bottom of the post you want instead of copy/paste*
Click to expand...

Johnny, I do use the "Quote" button....maybe I'm not using it right somehow??
All I meant about using the word, "Help?" was in reference to the cows thing. I figured someone (you or someone else more familiar with the threads and/or searches) would come up with an answer. However, it looks like Ashla did it for us.:) I figured I was close, but didn't want to mislead as fact.
Thanks as always for your on-going willingness to help anyone who needs it.

Apreciated, C~
 
formanchristopher said:
Johnny, I do use the "Quote" button....maybe I'm not using it right somehow??
All I meant about using the word, "Help?" was in reference to the cows thing. I figured someone (you or someone else more familiar with the threads and/or searches) would come up with an answer. However, it looks like Ashla did it for us.:) I figured I was close, but didn't want to mislead as fact.
Thanks as always for your on-going willingness to help anyone who needs it.

Apreciated, C~
Click to expand...

That's weird that one came through fine.

Thanks man that was a cool thing to say.:) thanks to you too ashla for clearing up the cows thing.
 
Sorry if this has been covered, my question is that bupe being a partial agonist could it be that the higher the dose in a certain person the higher the antagonistic features of the drug become apparent, thus making people feel less comfortable?
 
At a high enough dose in any person bupe will antagonize itself. I really don't think you need the perfect storm of brain chemistry for this to happen. I can't say for sure if that's what happened as I have no real way of knowing but, if I take to much it is certainly uncomfortable.
 
I've never heard it put that way. I was under the impression dysphoria and other negative symptoms occured at high doses was due to excessive kappa receptor antagonism? Not that Buprenorphine is antagonizing its own mu receptor agonism (which is generally what is meant when talking about antagonism and opioids)? Since mu receptor agonism is weak in Buprenorphine, after a certain dosing range in a given person it will stop increasing mu receptor agonism with increased dosages: but, the other, stronger activity at the kappa receptor (where it is an antagonist) continues to increase with increased dosage? Right?
 
Tchort said:
I've never heard it put that way. I was under the impression dysphoria and other negative symptoms occured at high doses was due to excessive kappa receptor antagonism? Not that Buprenorphine is antagonizing its own mu receptor agonism (which is generally what is meant when talking about antagonism and opioids)? Since mu receptor agonism is weak in Buprenorphine, after a certain dosing range in a given person it will stop increasing mu receptor agonism with increased dosages: but, the other, stronger activity at the kappa receptor (where it is an antagonist) continues to increase with increased dosage? Right?
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This is actually very hard to find concrete evidence of (at least it was for me). The only thing I've been able to find were abstracts showing the bupe antagonizsing itself, at high doses. Not only does it stop agonism of mu receptor it begins to antagonise itself there as well. Maybe JC or someone could jump in here and put it in english instead of all this psycho-babble I'm finding. Might I add it's nice to have a discussion with you instead of our usual bickering :D
 
I think the level at which it begins to antagonize itself is different for different people.

I know if I took more than 1mg at a time, it would start to antagonize itself for me.

I am used to taking 0.5mg at a time.
 
Johnny blue said:
This is actually very hard to find concrete evidence of (at least it was for me). The only thing I've been able to find were abstracts showing the bupe antagonizsing itself, at high doses. Not only does it stop agonism of mu receptor it begins to antagonise itself there as well. Maybe JC or someone could jump in here and put it in english instead of all this psycho-babble I'm finding. Might I add it's nice to have a discussion with you instead of our usual bickering :D
Click to expand...

Agreed.

It seems individual variation with Buprenorphine is huge- some people report no increase in mu agonist effect passed 12mg, others use doses over 40mg without experiencing dysphoria or other symptoms of high kappa antagonism and still experience increased mu agonist effects, etc

I've assumed my own horrible withdrawal syndrome from Buprenorphine was due to the 'anti-Depressant' aspect of Bupe (SSRI's and other anti-depressants will a very unpleasant physiological rebound/abstinence syndrome following cessation of use). The combination of traditional opioid withdrawal combined with the anti-Depressant-esque withdrawal made it the most unpleasant opioid I've ever felt withdrawals from. It seems the Delta opioid receptor, of which Buprenorphine is a partial agonist, is responsible for this anti-depressant activity.

Though it seems Norbuprenorphine is a full agonist at the Delta receptor, and is antagonized by Buprenorphine itself.

So I guess you guys are right. At least in one way and possibly others, Buprenorphine does antagonize itself in certain ways/circumstances.
 
I agree it does happen at very different and very unpredictable doses between different people. For me 2mg+ and I feel like absolute shit while others can get away with much more and not suffer the consequences.

What a bizarre drug this is, it seems like the more research I do the more it seems that no one really knows a whole lot about it.
 
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