• LAVA Moderator: Shinji Ikari

Speeding vs. law enforcement discussion

I must say that I am not Fjones, and I am not going to reveal anything about my driving history. Why not? Because it's irrelevant to the argument. When debating speed limits, we're trying to settle on laws for the marginal citizen. So we must think, to the best we can, about the driving behaviours of the marginal citizen, not necessarily Fjones.

Because guys, seriously for every wreckless driver, there's a man beating his wife after too much Jack Daniels, walking across a busy highway on LSD, etc. It's not about Fjones taking a 'holier than thou' position by trying to call people hypocrties, based on their pro-opinions on certain drug and alcohol legalisations. It is a perfectly analogous argument - to what degree should we keep things illegal because the few who abuse something can cause great harm to a society. If one wants to take a pro-stance on a drug, but an anti-stance on speeding, fine, but one needs to show, through facts and data, that the differentials of the societal dangers are significant. Not just pick and choose opinions based on the personalities of crazy internet people arguing them.

To what extent Fjones' personal experience with traffic laws affects his arguments in this thread is subjective, but what some people in this thread are missing is that any objectiveness of his arguments holds true, regardless of his personal experience. If Fjones presents statistics, or delivers an argument as a logical unit (you may disagree with him, but at least Fjones keeps himself consistent and I haven't seen any instances in here where he has argued himself into any logical contridictions), they/it are/is completely disjoint from Fjones himself - if he died, they could still be used the same tomorrow. But it definately seems like (several) people's distaste for Fjones' behaviour precludes them from engaging in the fair argument which he so desires.

With that said...I found this gem, and it's pretty good, but requires algebra 2.


A mathematical analysis of the "speed kills" arguments
Jan 3, 1996
by Alex Kuznetsov,


ABSTRACT:

There seems to be a universal belief, reflected in the current speed limits, that "speed kills", and that, as someone in this newsgroup said recently, "it does not take a rocket scientist" to figure out why. Ever since I got my first speeding ticket, I was trying to to just that - understand in a rational way what are the speed-related driving risks, and is there an optimal driving strategy that minimizes those and other driving risks. Perhaps my "rocket scientist" background (I do theoretical physics for a living) has made this analysis more complicated than it should be, but I hope the conclusions would be of interest to everybody here. In short, I argue that while increased speed is obviously a risk factor, there are other factors that can compensate that risk and are almost always more important. I propose a quantitative model to assess the speed-dependent risks, and use it to discuss the optimum driving strategy.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To analyze the "speed kills" argument quantitatively, let us consider the speed dependence of your chances to get killed or seriously injured in an accident. Let us call this number R. As in many other areas of science, this probability can be represented as a product of several factors:

R = S*E*A*K

S stands for "skills" and includes factors such as driving skills, vehicle capability, how much you concentrate on your driving, etc - everything that is speed-independent. It is just a constant number that is different for different drivers and different cars, but is not very important for our analysis of speed-dependent risks.
E means "exposure". This is an extensive (means it accumulates as you keep on driving) factor that should reflect your exposure to various driving hazards. For example, it can be simply proportional to the number of miles driven. We will discuss a model for the exposure factor below.

A stands for the probability of getting in an accident at any given time. It is an "intensive" quantity (does not accumulate as you keep on driving). It is obviously dependent on speed as well as some other factors that we discuss below. It can be thought of as "risk rate": total risk is your risk rate times exposure. Let's call it "accident rate".

Finally, K is a "kill factor": the conditional probability of getting killed or seriously injured provided you got in an accident. It will depend on speed.

There are of course many unknowns involved in each of those factors, so it is impossible to give an absolute number for R (like "you will get killed every 125,000 miles on average"). However, it is possible to analyze how the risk depends on speed by making some reasonable assumptions about the risk and exposure factors.

Let us start with the simplest case: no traffic. You have an empty highway in front of you, and you need to cover L miles going from point a to point b - what can we assume about the above risk factors?

E: exposure will be simply proportional to L (miles driven). Think of it this way: there is a certain chance to encounter a road hazard (a pothole, a deer, a slick spot) per every mile, so the more you drive, the more likely you are to encounter something you'll have to avoid. Exposure here is speed-independent.

What is speed-dependent is the accident risk, A. Your ability to avoid a hazard will be reduced at higher speeds. To a good approximation, A will simply be proportional to the speed, v: A = c*v, where c incorporates road conditions. The argument is simple: if you go twice as fast, you will have twice less time to react to a hazard that doubles the chances of an accident (same goes for veering off the road in a turn - the risk is also proportional to v). More realistic models of the accident risk should allow for rapid increase in A at speeds above the mechanical limit of the vehicle. I will disregard this effect here because I believe most cars still behave quite competently at 80 mph which is the highest traffic speed I will dare to consider.

Now the "kill factor", K. It is a chance to get killed or gravely injured in an accident when we already know the accident occurs. This is the quantity crash tests attempt to measure. It is a number that varies between zero and one, like all probabilities. It obviously grows with speed, but the important thing here is that it cannot exceed one: to put it another way, if you crash at 200 mph, you will be just as dead as if you crashed at 100 - doubling the speed does not double the kill factor. This factor should grow with speed at low speeds, but once you are over a speed where almost any accident results in severe injury or death, the kill factor levels off and gradually approaches one. For the purposes of this discussion, I will use the following functional form for K:

K = 1 - exp(-v/30 mph)

This function grows linearly with v at low speeds (below 30 mph), and approaches one as you go above 30 mph. It DOES NOT mean you get killed if you crash at 30 mph: it gives a 63% chance of injury or death for a 30 mph crash, a 73% chance for 40 mph, an 86% if you crash at 60, and a 95% chance to get killed in a 100 mph crash. I think this is reasonable, but there is room for debate here.
So, what does it give us for the risks of driving down an empty highway?

R is proportional to : E*A*K = (exposure proportional to L)*
*(accident rate proportional to v)* the kill factor =

= L*v*(1 - exp(-v/30)

per mile driven: R/L ~ v*(1 - exp(-v/30))

It is a growing function of v and, I think, the cornerstone of the "speed kills" ideology. It tells you that, if you take the risk at 50 mph as a reference of 100, your risk at 10 mph is 7, at 30 mph it is 48, at 60 mph it is 130, and at 90 mph it is a whooping 212. So, you are half as likely to get killed if you go 30 than if you go 50, and you are more than twice as likely to get killed if you go 90.
The conclusion that risk is a monotonously increasing function of speed is, however, valid only for the specific conditions (empty highway) which very few of us actually encounter in real life. The presence of traffic makes a major difference here. Let us try to incorporate the effects of traffic on the driving risks in our model.

E: exposure to driving hazards should grow with traffic density. You still have the above-discussed road-hazard component of exposure that is simply proportional to miles driven (L), but in the presence of traffic we should also add exposure to traffic hazards. This is proportional to traffic density which we will characterize by a factor, d (e.g. the number of cars per mile of highway), and to TIME you spend in the traffic: E = L + d*T . L and T are related, L = vT, so if we want to calculate risk per mile driven we should rewrite it as: E = L( 1 + d/v). It is very important to note that now exposure is speed-dependent, in fact it DECREASES with speed. The reason it decreases is simple: if you go faster, it takes you less time to go from a to b so you have less time to get in trouble (though the accident rate may increase with speed). I have never seen a discussion of this point but it is very important: every second you spend on the highway with traffic around you adds to your risk exposure, if you spend less time there by going faster, you DECREASE the exposure.

A: accident rate will still have a component that is simply proportional to v. However, the presence of traffic means that it should also depend on your speed relative to other cars, and on the traffic density. The simplest way to incorporate such dependence is to add a "traffic" component to the accident rate that has a minimum at the average speed of traffic, u (although Rahul may disagree, there is such a thing as the flow of traffic: u can be defined as the average speed of cars in your immediate vicinity). The simplest function with a minimum is the parabola, so let's write:

A = c*v + d*(v - u)^2

the relative balance between the first (obstacle avoidance) and second (traffic) components of the accident rate can depend on road conditions which can again be taken into account by varying c . This functional form provides for a rapid increase in accident rate when you deviate from flow of traffic, just as it is in real life. I am tempted to make this adjustment asymmetric by making it more dangerous to go slightly below the flow of traffic than to go slightly above, but that would be beyond the accuracy of the model.
K: it seems reasonable to assume that the kill factor does not depend much on the presence of traffic: once you got in an accident, you will or will not get killed according to your speed. This may be an oversimplification, but let's leave it at that.

So, in the presence of traffic our risk becomes:

R [per mile driven] ~ (exposure )* (accident rate) * ( kill factor)

= (1 + d/v) * (c*v + d*(v - u)^2)* (1 - exp(-v/30))

This now depends not only on your speed, but also on the density and speed of traffic. Anyone with a graphing calculator can have some fun plotting this function for various values of the parameters. Let me just verbally summarize the main features of such plots:
1) even in a modest traffic (low d), it becomes extremely dangerous to deviate from the flow speed, either above or below.

2) in moderate and heavy traffic, if you go with the flow (v = u), the increase in accident rate due to higher speeed (c*v in second term) is largely offset by the DECREASE in exposure (d/v in the first term), so the product (the total risk) would remain independent of speed.

3) The increase in the flow speed (which is what speed limits attempt to regulate) does increase the risk even if you go with the flow. E.g. if the flow speed increases from 50 to 90 (for the sake of argument), the risk increases by 17% due to the last term, the kill factor. However, the increase is much less than what we had on an open highway, where the same increase in speed led to risk increase of 112%. This is again because of decreasing exposure at higher speeds.

4) Any attempts to obey the speed limit when the flow is substantially faster are suicidal, according to this model. Doing 55 when everybody else is doing 70 can increase your risk by more than a factor of 100!

5) It also appears that "traffic kills" rather than "speed kills": traffic density d is the single most important factor that affects the total risk. Doubling the traffic density approximately doubles the risk and makes it twice as dangerous to deviate from the flow.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In conclusion, this analysis corroborates what most of us already know from experience: the safest thing to do is to go with the flow and screw the speed limit. Contrary to what the insurance industry wants us to believe, the increase in flow speed DOES NOT lead to proportional increases in death risk. The decrease in exposure to traffic hazards resulting from spending less time on the road (that's why everybody wants to go faster in the first place) largely offsets the increase in accident rate at higher speeds. Finally, it appears that a good way to decrease your risk is to try reducing the local density of traffic around you - avoid traveling in "platoons" even if it means momentarily increasing your speed to get away from the pack.

I fully realize that many assumptions made here are debatable, and I would appreciate suggestions and criticisms, especially statistical data that could help improve this model. I believe that trying to understand the complex phenomenon of auto accidents on the basis of rational analysis is a better way to deal with it than just cry "speed kills" every time a drunk ends up wrapped around a pole. I hope this contribution has been constructive, inspite of its length.

(source http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/speedsci.html)
 
Excellent post Redleader, I appreciate it.

I plan to check out that Math tomorrow. I am due early in the AM for traffic court and need some sleep :)

One thought though. I said earlier, "If I am driving and a tire blows out and I die, Oh well."

Impacto profundo said, "Your attitude toward life sickens me"

Huh!???

Anytime anyone does any of the following things, he or she is taking the EXACT SAME APPROACH TOWARDS LIFE --

Flying
Bungee Jumping
Hang gliding
Riding a roller coaster
going out in the ocean

These are all activities that are UNNECESSARY for life, yet can result in death in situations where the only thing you can do it say to yourself, "Oh well, this is how I die, so be it."
 
please make up your mind, fjones. Are you upset ... ahem passionate... about road law enforcement or the idea that driving fast increases danger?

Wow, are you ever a hypocrite! you are all "rules rules rules" when it suits your argument, then you just disregard them whenever you want, which you can because you are a senior moderator. How pathetic.

pull your head out of your arse, mate. i repeat, it aint about rules but safety.


I am curious as to how consistent you are Mr. Profundo. Do you think drug users should be put in jail too? After all, they are violating the laws that you hold so precious.

who's ignoring points now? 8)


"Only with drivers like me?" On most highways, more than half the cars are driving above the speed limit.

it is very common, but not half. unfortunately there are far too many people like you on the road, with too much confidence in their own abilities, many of which destined to hurt someone else.
 
Anytime anyone does any of the following things, he or she is taking the EXACT SAME APPROACH TOWARDS LIFE --

Flying
Bungee Jumping
Hang gliding
Riding a roller coaster
going out in the ocean

These are all activities that are UNNECESSARY for life, yet can result in death in situations where the only thing you can do it say to yourself, "Oh well, this is how I die, so be it."

None of those activities are going to result in the death of someone else. I really don't care that you might kill yourself. I care that you will take out an unwitting stranger.
 
please make up your mind, fjones. Are you upset ... ahem passionate... about road law enforcement or the idea that driving fast increases danger?



pull your head out of your arse, mate. i repeat, it aint about rules but safety.




who's ignoring points now? 8)




it is very common, but not half. unfortunately there are far too many people like you on the road, with too much confidence in their own abilities, many of which destined to hurt someone else.


Are you being dense intentionally?

I am arguing that the enforcement of the speed limits is arbitrary and incorrectly done, AND that the speed limits themselves are improper.

Pull my head out of my ass? You said it is about the RULES. THOSE WERE YOUR OWN WORDS. You said I should drive 55 in the limit is 55 and 65 if it is 65. And you said that going 80 in an 80 is okay.

So going 80 in an 80 is okay but going 80 in a 65 is "speeding" and "dangerous" Do you not realize how idiotic that is?

I am not ignoring points. I asked you a question about drug policy. I await your answer. Do you think people who selfishly choose to get high and endanger others should go to jail? (I am playing devil's advocate here, obviously I do not believe that, but I am curious to see if you are consistent enough in your beliefs to do so yourself.)


It is very common but not half??? I don't know which roads you drive on, but if you say that anywhere in the NorthEast USA, you are dead wrong. Your closing quote shows that your arrogance knows no bounds.

Show me the facts sir. Show me the facts that indicate that the TYPE of speeding i advocate is "DESTINED to hurt someone else."

Otherwise, you are just making shit up. You should take logic 101. You would fail misserably, but you should take it anyway. You are completely incapable of having an objective and logical discussion

I eagerly await your response to redleader's post.
 
^ Plane crash lands on an occupied home.

You know, just a thought...

yes, but not due to someone being in it.

if you cause death in a vehicle you're driving is totally your responsibility
 
None of those activities are going to result in the death of someone else. I really don't care that you might kill yourself. I care that you will take out an unwitting stranger.


You are going around in circles. You are unable to even make one coherent point. I am not advocating hurting strangers. I am saying that when I drive 80 MPH on the highweay, I am not endangering other people.

You can disagree all you want, but the facts and stats are not on your side.

By the way, do you know how to actually form a cogent argument? (I recommend using the dictionary to learn what "cogent" means).

The proper technique is,

State your thesis
Support your thesis using true and relevant premises

It is not, as you seem to think it is,

Attack your opponent
Veer off on irrelevant tangents
Resort to any number of other logical fallacies
Ignore crucial points of the opponent's argument.
 
Are you being dense intentionally?

Excuse me? Was that an ad hom attack? Was that hypocricy from you?

I am arguing that the enforcement of the speed limits is arbitrary and incorrectly done, AND that the speed limits themselves are improper.

your thread subject line: "Is speeding really dangerous?"

That is a different question to those i've just quoted.

Pull my head out of my ass? You said it is about the RULES. THOSE WERE YOUR OWN WORDS.
Quote me then. When did i say this?

You said I should drive 55 in the limit is 55 and 65 if it is 65. And you said that going 80 in an 80 is okay.
Yes i did. I also noted that it was about safety. Safety is the reason those rules are in place and safety is a reason to stick to them, or do something about it to have them updated.

So going 80 in an 80 is okay but going 80 in a 65 is "speeding" and "dangerous" Do you not realize how idiotic that is?

To someone so blindly lusting over some justification for speeding after copping a ludicrous number of speeding ticket, sure from someone as blind as that it may seem idiotic.

I am not ignoring points. I asked you a question about drug policy. I await your answer. Do you think people who selfishly choose to get high and endanger others should go to jail? (I am playing devil's advocate here, obviously I do not believe that, but I am curious to see if you are consistent enough in your beliefs to do so yourself.)

since you've added the "and endanger others" bit then yes they should go to jail.

but you have ignored quite a lot. re-read the thread.


It is very common but not half??? I don't know which roads you drive on, but if you say that anywhere in the NorthEast USA, you are dead wrong. Your closing quote shows that your arrogance knows no bounds.

Show me the facts sir. Show me the facts that indicate that the TYPE of speeding i advocate is "DESTINED to hurt someone else."

Otherwise, you are just making shit up. You should take logic 101. You would fail misserably, but you should take it anyway. You are completely incapable of having an objective and logical discussion

I eagerly await your response to redleader's post.


absurdity. keep crying and getting fined... and crying. bothers me not unless you hurt someone.
 
was the pilot evading the laws of aviation; potentially putting the passengers and innocent at risk?

...kytnism...:|

The point is, most things carry inherent risk.

If people could just TRY to address the relevant issues, I would just be ecstatic.

Does ANYONE here besides Redleader know how to make an argument?

Here is an example --

"I think that the speed limits are arbitrary, too low, and poorly enforced. I think they are more about money than safety. And here is why --

(I need not repeat my points, I have repeated them so many times already).


Now, how have people "countered" my argument? They have countered it by saying (paraphrasing here), "You are wrong because you are obviously stupid and irresponsible and dangerous. Speeding is dangerous because it is dangerous. The government says so."

THAT IS NOT A LOGICAL OR COGENT COUNTERARGUMENT!!!!!!!!!

An effective tactic is to use a RELEVANT analogy. For example,

The government also says that Cocaine and Marijuana and ecstasy are extremely dangerous and addictive. Yet, it turns out that the government has lied and distorted facts and figures and studies for years, destroying all credibility they have on the matter.

Most people here are against the Marijuana prohibition. Many of them use the SAME ARGUMENTS I am making here about speeding, and they don't get excoriated like I am here.
 
You are going around in circles. You are unable to even make one coherent point. I am not advocating hurting strangers. I am saying that when I drive 80 MPH on the highweay, I am not endangering other people.

You can disagree all you want, but the facts and stats are not on your side.

By the way, do you know how to actually form a cogent argument? (I recommend using the dictionary to learn what "cogent" means).

The proper technique is,

State your thesis
Support your thesis using true and relevant premises

It is not, as you seem to think it is,

Attack your opponent
Veer off on irrelevant tangents
Resort to any number of other logical fallacies
Ignore crucial points of the opponent's argument.

the points i've made are clear. your responses attempting to undermine my language rather than my points say much more about you than they do about me.
 
Excuse me? Was that an ad hom attack? Was that hypocricy from you?



your thread subject line: "Is speeding really dangerous?"

That is a different question to those i've just quoted.


Quote me then. When did i say this?

Yes i did. I also noted that it was about safety. Safety is the reason those rules are in place and safety is a reason to stick to them, or do something about it to have them updated.



To someone so blindly lusting over some justification for speeding after copping a ludicrous number of speeding ticket, sure from someone as blind as that it may seem idiotic.



since you've added the "and endanger others" bit then yes they should go to jail.

but you have ignored quite a lot. re-read the thread.





absurdity. keep crying and getting fined... and crying. bothers me not unless you hurt someone.

No sir, I am not being a hypocrite. I asked if you are being dense. That is a bit different than calling me "worse than a pedophile." Do you not understand the difference between saying someone is BEING dense, and saying someone IS stupid?

You are really amazing, I must say. You keep saying, "Safety is the reason those rules are in place," even though I have convincingly proved that safety is NOT the main reason for the rules. I have given numerous pieces of evidence to the contrary, yet you ignore them and simply keep restating your opinion as your proof!

What PROOF do you have that safety is the primary reason for the 55 MPH zones instead of higher ones? You haven't offered a SINGLE PIECE OF PROOF!

BACK UP ONE OF YOUR STATEMENTS! Christ, are there ANY qualifications for being a Senior Moderator? Any whatsoever? So far I see you disregarding the rules, attacking another poster, and offering nothing constructive except emotionally charged repetitive statements.

"To someone so blindly lusting over some justification for speeding after copping a ludicrous number of speeding ticket, sure from someone as blind as that it may seem idiotic."

Listen -- If I am wrong, then EXPLAIN WHY. You have failed to do so. You think that simply by stating it as fact, it becomes fact? Seriously man, take a logic 101 class. It will blow your mind. It really will. There is a whole world of fact, logic, and reason out there that you are missing.
 
I frequently drive quite fast...well above the speed limit. I'm not the type of person to rush, in fact I'm quite a lagger, I don't rush for shit. But I love driving, and faster is funner, but I would never intentionally endanger somebody, and the only problems I've had on the road were times when I've relied on other drivers to make quick and accurate judgments.(don't every do this!!)

I know I'm not really contributing to the thread, Fjones, I don't really care to debate the topic, I drive how I drive regardless of what people say is right or wrong.

What I don't understand is how you keep getting caught! When I drive faster than the flow of traffic I'm in a hyper aware state, looking far/close ahead and planning out my path, and always have an escape route. I always see cops loong before I approach them, or in my rear-view before they come up behind me.
 
fjones i dont appreciate your passive aggressive nature in this thread. im happy to have a constructive and adultive conversation about the topic at hand; but fail to see the productivity in people going back and forward in insult and entertaining a battle of who could care less.

until then; seacrest out. <3

...kytnism...:|
 
fjones, this is getting boring now. i'll leave you to your vehement intent to get more fines. i sincerely hope that they are the worst that happen to you due to your vehicle use.
 
the points i've made are clear. your responses attempting to undermine my language rather than my points say much more about you than they do about me.

You haven't made any points. I am not undermining your language, I am pointing out that your argument lacks any cogency. I am not even sure if you know what these words mean, because you do not seem to.

You have ignored every point I have made. You haven't offered one reasonable counter argument.

Redleader basically embarrassed you with his long post, and you completely ignored him because you had absolutely nothing you could possibly say in response to what he wrote.

If you could give me the post numbers where you supposedly made a point of some kind, I would greatly appreciate it.

Just once try to answer a question.

1) Why is it inherently dangerous to drive 80 MPH? Please explain. You have yet to do so.

2) If speed traps are about safety, why do they HIDE, such that people DO speed, when they could sit out in the open, this stopping people from speeding?

3) If speeding is so dangerous, why do they give such low fines for it? Why do they allow you to do it so many times without losing your license? Why don't they stop speeding altogether by enforcing draconian penalties that no one would risk receiving?

4) Why do different states have different speed limits? If the governments cannot even agree with each other about what a safe speed is, why should I assume any of them are correct?

5) If speeding is dangerous, why is the autobahn as safe, if not safer, than American highways?


I eagerly await your responses.
 
fjones i dont appreciate your passive aggressive nature in this thread. im happy to have a constructive and adultive conversation about the topic at hand; but fail to see the productivity in people going back and forward in insult and entertaining a battle of who could care less.

until then; seacrest out. <3

...kytnism...:|

And I do not appreciate being ganged up on by people, some of whom are moderators. I do not appreciate a direct violation of the forum rules from a SENIOR MODERATOR, who seems to be entitled to do whateve he wants just becasue he doesn't like me.

I am not being passive aggressive. What exactly has been passive about anything i have said?

I am presenting my case and defending my position. I present numbered lists of my primary points and request that Impacto profundo address them, and instead he just continues to attack me.

Do the moderators here ever take each other to task? Or do they just constantly display this blatant favoritism? It is sad that I am the only one who has the balls to call out Impacto Profundo on his outrageously offensive statements about me and pedophiles.
 
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