A serious thread about online poker

[alasdairm]

Maybe this is just the agony you suffer from playing free roll tourneys...

people in freerolls rarely play as they would when there's money on the line. if there's no cost to call, why not?

generally speaking, i think that playing freerolls is only really practice for the accidental complexity of poker. if you want to concentrate on the essential complexity of the game itself, you need to buy-in, in my opinion.

alasdair

 

[Fjones]

yes!

we'll agree to disagree.

if you can't (or won't) adapt your play, i think that limits your available tools. 90% of the games i play are small-stakes online tournaments. sure, i'll generally play certain starting hands in certain ways. sure, position and stack size are as important as always but i can't imagine limiting my options because i've told myself "you have to do this...".

alasdair

I do not agree to disagree, because I think we actually agree.

Yes, there are times when one must adapt to the table conditions, obviously. When the blinds get to a point where they actually mean something, one must adapt to how tight or loose the table is, how tight and loose specific players are, what the average stack is, what your stack is relative to the blinds, and how many people are left vs. how many people pay.

I didn't make $30,000 + in my poker career by NOT understanding that. I certainly haven't limited my options in any way. When the time comes, I'll make a move with any two cards. I have pushed all in pre flop with 2 7 offsuit with $1000 + dollars at stake (final three people of a large multi table tournament).

That wasn't the point I was making. My point was that in the early stages (usually the first three to four blind levels, you simply do not have enough information to adapt to anything. There is no situation in the first three blind levels that warrants playing AT or pocket twos from early position.

People must learn ABC poker, which involves a hard set of rules, and master that, before they start getting fancy with "plays" and "moves" and such. And one must know ABC poker in order to adapt it to the changing table conditions.

People watch too much TV and think poker is all about moves and fancy elaborate plays. It isn't. The world's best poker players are playing ABC poker 90% of the time or more.

 

[alasdairm]

i almost agree with you but...

There is no situation in the first three blind levels that warrants playing AT or pocket twos from early position.

once in a while i will do just that. if i make the hand pay, sometimes i'll get a "i can't believe you played that..." which suits me just fine. if we all played by the book, did everything we are supposed to do all the time, poker would be pretty boring to me.

alasdair

 

[Fjones]

i almost agree with you but...once in a while i will do just that. if i make the hand pay, sometimes i'll get a "i can't believe you played that..." which suits me just fine. if we all played by the book, did everything we are supposed to do all the time, poker would be pretty boring to me.

alasdair

winning poker is boring. If poker is exciting for you, you are probably playing it wrong.

I am not talking about what it FUN or what is enjoyable, I am talking about what is profitable and + EV. In the early stages of a tournament, AT or 22 in EP is a negative EV hand. Just because it pays off occasionally and someone says, "I cannot believe you did that," does not make it a profitable play.

If you want to raise from late position with a 3 9 offsuit to steal the blinds and then you hit two pair and crack KK and someone says, "I cannot believe you did that," that's different. The play might have been + EV because you were trying to execute a late position blind steal and hoping to win the hand with a bet after the flop if you were called.

There is a difference.

Again, the original question wasn't "How can I make poker fun," it was "How can I play ____ profitably."

 

[alasdairm]

for me, playing poker profitably and having fun are not mutually exclusive.

alasdair

 

[Bedhead]

for me, playing poker profitably and having fun are not mutually exclusive.

alasdair

Taking down a big pot is always fun.

 

[Fjones]

for me, playing poker profitably and having fun are not mutually exclusive.

alasdair

No, but they don't completely overlap either. There is a difference between "mixing it up" and making bad plays.

If you are playing ace 8 suited under the gun in a full table durign the first two blind levels of a tournament, you are costing yourself profit, regardless of how much fun you might have by playing the hand.

If you are good enough to play a bad hand like that profitably (in that specific situation), then you should be playing the highest stakes games and making millions of dollars.

 

[Fjones]

people in freerolls rarely play as they would when there's money on the line. if there's no cost to call, why not?

generally speaking, i think that playing freerolls is only really practice for the accidental complexity of poker. if you want to concentrate on the essential complexity of the game itself, you need to buy-in, in my opinion.

alasdair

I agree with this 100%.

 

[Cyc]

I'm gonna agree that people who are successful at online poker play hard, fast rules and probably aren't having much fun. In fact, they rely on the recreational types to turn a profit.

I went to an online poker seminar this summer and learned a few things. Mainly, that I'm not patient enough to hack it.

Couple questions for you though, Fjones since you're fielding them.

How many tables do you normally play at once?

What do you look for in terms of "tells" in online poker?

 

[Yippee Skippy]

Hope OP doesn't mind me addressing a couple of these...

How do you play against super-aggressive players (say you're into the middle/later half a tourney blinds 200/400 50 ante) who almost always re-raise you pre-flo? If I miss the flop w/ A 10 suited I feel like I have no choice but to fold if they put out a little less than 1/2 pot bet. Meanwhile the blinds/antes are eating away at my short chip stack.

Only call/raise w/ decent hands?

this is a general rule of thumb that will serve you well in most situations, not just against an aggro player: raise more than call, fold more than raise.

In the situation you mention, a lot depends on your chip stacks. If you have 10bb's or less, you shouldn't just be raising, you should be raising all-in. That solves the issue of calling a reraise and then check-folding a whiffed flop.

If you have a comfortable stack and can afford to put in a "standard" raise but you know that your villain is always going to reraise you then you've got to tighten up your raising range. ATs probably isn't strong enough when you don't have position at the table. You can assume they are reraising light if they do it all the time though, so I would pretty much open-raise like TT+ and AQo-AKs then plan to just shove over a reraise pretty much all the time.

What do you look for in terms of "tells" in online poker?

tells in online poker are generally determined using statistics such as VPIP (Voluntarily Put $ In Pot) PFR % (Pre-Flop Raise percentage) and PFA (post-flop aggression). There are literally dozens of stats which can be tracked using PokerTracker or Hold 'Em Manager.

I look for patterns in play as well. For instance, I noticed some player put in big overbets on the river when he had nothing and made a note about it. Then, one time when I was in a pot against him, I called one of those bets with something like bottom (or right next to it) pair and took a good pot. The bluffer called me an idiot and left, while some other players said "great call" or whatever.

My point is, most people tend to make the same mistakes over and over. When you see them, put it in their player notes and you'll know what to look for.

 

[Bedhead]

Do you guys ever go on tilt? Or maybe a more appropriate question would be how often would you say you go on tilt?

Since I just started playing with real $ I find myself getting pissed off more when I lose to garbage, and then I make poor decisions in the next hand. I've set a cut off point where if I get there, I make myself quit... need to work on my patience and discipline.

^Keeping notes is a good strategy. I like how Pokerstars has a notes tab in the bottom left. Makes it very easy to type things in there. Keep track of how your opponents play.

 

[Vaportrails]

How do you play poker sober?

I find I have to get messed up to find it entertaining, and then I play like an idiot.

 

[Fjones]

I'm gonna agree that people who are successful at online poker play hard, fast rules and probably aren't having much fun. In fact, they rely on the recreational types to turn a profit.

I went to an online poker seminar this summer and learned a few things. Mainly, that I'm not patient enough to hack it.

Couple questions for you though, Fjones since you're fielding them.

How many tables do you normally play at once?

What do you look for in terms of "tells" in online poker?

I play 6 to 8 tables at once, though I prefer 6. Any more than that and I find it too difficult to make snacks or use the bathroom during a session (I like to play 6 - 8 hour sessions if possible).

As far as tells go -- I don't rely on tells. I am playing 6 tables, so there is no way to pay attention to tells. The only possible tell is the amount of time someone takes to do something, and this is not reliable. I time down for any number of reasons sometimes that have nothing to do with that actual hand. I am sure others do the same.

There is actually one exception -- If it is obvious that someone has the check/fold button clicked, I will likely bet any two or any hand. It is VERY rare that soemone clicks that button as a fake with a big hand. It has only happened to me once, and I have played somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 hands.

 

[Fjones]

Hope OP doesn't mind me addressing a couple of these...

this is a general rule of thumb that will serve you well in most situations, not just against an aggro player: raise more than call, fold more than raise.

In the situation you mention, a lot depends on your chip stacks. If you have 10bb's or less, you shouldn't just be raising, you should be raising all-in. That solves the issue of calling a reraise and then check-folding a whiffed flop.

If you have a comfortable stack and can afford to put in a "standard" raise but you know that your villain is always going to reraise you then you've got to tighten up your raising range. ATs probably isn't strong enough when you don't have position at the table. You can assume they are reraising light if they do it all the time though, so I would pretty much open-raise like TT+ and AQo-AKs then plan to just shove over a reraise pretty much all the time.

tells in online poker are generally determined using statistics such as VPIP (Voluntarily Put $ In Pot) PFR % (Pre-Flop Raise percentage) and PFA (post-flop aggression). There are literally dozens of stats which can be tracked using PokerTracker or Hold 'Em Manager.

I look for patterns in play as well. For instance, I noticed some player put in big overbets on the river when he had nothing and made a note about it. Then, one time when I was in a pot against him, I called one of those bets with something like bottom (or right next to it) pair and took a good pot. The bluffer called me an idiot and left, while some other players said "great call" or whatever.

My point is, most people tend to make the same mistakes over and over. When you see them, put it in their player notes and you'll know what to look for.

My apologies, I must have missed bedhead's post somehow. I agree 100% with what yippeeskippee said about the aggro player and hands like AT. Regarding the rest, I agree with that also, though I wouldn't call those "tells." The stats like VPIP and such are stats and data, which I consider to be different from "tells." The three stats he mentioned are very important, and are often used as the standard "slash" stats to evaluate players.

Your VPIP and PFR should be VERY close together, otherwise it means you are limping in too much and/or calling other people's raises too much. For a player playing 6 seated cash games, good slash stats might be 19/17/4 or something like that. The VPIP / PFR of 19/17 shows that he isn't playing too many hands but also not too few, and when he plays, he is raising. The aggression factor of 4 shows that he is aggressive post flop. This is a player you want to avoid. He is probably very good. The new version of poker tracker comes with a HUD overlay (HUD = Heads up Display) which can overlay the stats of your choosing on the player's avatar at the table.

Regarding the patterns mentioned, I agree that those are useful also, but I file that under the category of "tendencies," not "tells." Most certainly, if you see a player doing the same stupid things, you should take advantage of that.

One must always keep in mind though, just because a player is a fish with bad slash stats, or a bad OPR or sharkscope, doesn't mean he doesn't have a hand! Fish get big hands too.

OPR = www.officialpokerrankings.com a great free site that tracks all kinds of data about all tournaments played on most of the important sites.

Sharkscope = www.sharkscope.com , another great site.

 

[Fjones]

Do you guys ever go on tilt? Or maybe a more appropriate question would be how often would you say you go on tilt?

Since I just started playing with real $ I find myself getting pissed off more when I lose to garbage, and then I make poor decisions in the next hand. I've set a cut off point where if I get there, I make myself quit... need to work on my patience and discipline.

^Keeping notes is a good strategy. I like how Pokerstars has a notes tab in the bottom left. Makes it very easy to type things in there. Keep track of how your opponents play.

I do. It is very costly. I avoid live cash games because they put me on severe tilt.

When I play online tournaments, I play high volume so I can shrug off bad beats. At live poker, the factors that put me on tilt are often unrelated to the actual outcome of the hands. Live poker is annoying to me because of the slow play, few hands, annoying people, annoying dealers, mistakes people make with the pots, whose turn it is, etc.

A more insidious form of tilt is "passive" tilt, where you go on such a bad run that you expect to lose, and you become very passive because you fear getting involved with any hands. Passive tilt can result in limping in too much, calling when you should raise, folding when you should call, not making continuation bets even against one person, and the worst of all, raise/folding too much, even when pot committed.

This is a difficult form of tilt to spot, because you aren't wildly throwing chips around like standard "tilt." This form of tilt can go unchecked for weeks. That is why it is important to regularly track your slash stats and also just evaluate your play objectively whenever possible. Send questionable hand histories to a friend to review to see if you are making mistakes.

 

[Fjones]

Do you guys ever go on tilt? Or maybe a more appropriate question would be how often would you say you go on tilt?

Since I just started playing with real $ I find myself getting pissed off more when I lose to garbage, and then I make poor decisions in the next hand. I've set a cut off point where if I get there, I make myself quit... need to work on my patience and discipline.

^Keeping notes is a good strategy. I like how Pokerstars has a notes tab in the bottom left. Makes it very easy to type things in there. Keep track of how your opponents play.

Things to keep in mind -- focus on DECISIONS, not results. Bad players focus on results, good players focus on decisions. Never rabbit hunt. Who cares? You folded already. Never say, "OMG, I FOLDED A ___________." Who cares? you FOLDED! And it was the right fold at the time! Who cares if you fold 2 5 and the flop comes A 3 4 ?

Don't go around to players whining about bad beats or how bad you are running. I guarantee I can top them all, and I just don't care. I don't want to hear it. If you have a question about a play or a decision, ask me. (I am using "you" as the generic "you," not you specifically).

I can't tell you how many times someone has come to me and said something incredibly stupid, like, "So, I had AA and blah blah blah blah (His hand loses somehow). What should I do? Should I blah blah blah blah ....." When in fact, he got it in good and got unlucky. Why ask anyone what to do there? I don't get it.

About losing to trash hands -- If you lose a hand or tournament, three things are possible.

1) You got coolered (big hand to big hand and yours is second best). nothing to evaluate here.

2) You got it in good and got unlucky. Why get upset? YOU GOT IT IN GOOD. Would you prefer your opponents play BETTER hands or BETTER poker? I don't think so, but if you do, move up in stakes and you will get your wish.

3) You got outplayed / made mistakes. If this is the case, why be upset about the opponent or his cards? Instead focus on better decisions and better play.

 

[Fjones]

How do you play against super-aggressive players (say you're into the middle/later half a tourney blinds 200/400 50 ante) who almost always re-raise you pre-flo? If I miss the flop w/ A 10 suited I feel like I have no choice but to fold if they put out a little less than 1/2 pot bet. Meanwhile the blinds/antes are eating away at my short chip stack.

Only call/raise w/ decent hands?

The few times I won I had top pair top kicker on the flop and re-raised all in, and he folded. Thoughts? Am I approaching this situation incorrectly? I find myself a little confused and don't know exactly what to do when I'm at a table w/ a few super-aggressive players.

Then he finally knocked me out when he called my all-in raise w/ a jack high flush draw, which he hit on the turn. Which, if my all-in re-raise is a little more than 1/2 the pot, doesn't make sense math mathematically, right? 6k in pot, 3.5k re-raise from me. That's like 3:1 pot odds for him to call. (think I got that right...)

Maybe this is just the agony you suffer from playing free roll tourneys...

First of all, in the 200 / 400 / 50 situation, you didn't say what your stack is, so I cannot answer the question.

Second, if an aggressive player leads for half the pot, he might be trying to buy it. Often, the aggressive player doesn't like to CALL bets, and he knows if he checks, you will take control of the hand and win the pot. If you come over the top of him with missed overs, he might fold. If he calls, you might have 6 outs to win the hand. Some aggressive players play their big hands slowly, some continue the aggression even when they hit, so you would need to be watching him carefully for any information you can pick up.

In a "fast" tournament online, once you get below 18 big blinds you really need to be very careful with what you do pre flop. You cannot afford to be raise/folding very often with that stack. Ideally, you want to look for a "repop" situation (one where you can reraise someone all in pre flop), that way you pick up more than jsut the blinds and antes. You don't want to just move in preflop to pick up the blinds and antes, because you are making it a negative EV play since there are so few chips to gain.

But once you get to a certain point (somewhere around 10 - 12 Big blinds), you should be looking to move in pre flop into an unopened pot, or, into an opened pot with a big hand. Remember that you have no fold equity here, as you do not have enough chips to make someone fold after he opens.

Also, if you have top/top against an aggro player, why would you reraise all in? He isn't folding better, and he isn't likely to be calling with worse. Any worse hand he has that he WOULD call your all in with, he is going to pay you off with anyway. So you gain absolutely nothing by raising.

A raise or bet should either

A) get a better hand to fold or
B) Get a worse hand to call

If it doesn't do either of those, then you have made a mistake.

Also, it seems like your math is really off here. If he called your all-in reraise of half the pot, he easily had odds to draw to his flush. With two cards to come, his flush is 35% to hit. If you reraised all in for 3500 into a 6000 pot, he is calling 3500 to win 9500. He easily has odds there.

Even if you raised 4500 into a 6000 pot, he has odds to draw to a flush.

Now, if he is only guaranteed to see ONE card, the math is different, but wince you said you reraised all in, that means he gets to see both the turn and river for the 3500 bet.

 

[Fjones]

I decided to check out the 5 cent ten cent game on full tilt just to see what it was like, since someone mentioned the microstakes games.

The game played very much like a normal game, except for the one clown at the table who wasn't taking it seriously (me). Just remember, there is always achance that there is one player at the table who is just screwing aroudn with money he doesn't care about, regardless of the buy in for the table. I have seen people clown around at a $2 $5 table and just not give a shit.

DON"T LET THESE PLAYERS RATTLE YOU! They will lose a lot of money most of the time, usually 2 - 5 buy-ins. But sometiems they will get ridiculously lucky. This happened to me, I sat with $10 (The maximum) and no one had more than $10.

Within an hour or so I had $50 and had sent about 6 players from the table . I did not play well, on purpose, but sometimes you can win anyway. The nonsense culminated in a ridiculous hand that is the kind of hand that starts the "poker is rigged!" crao that people talk about--


Full Tilt Poker Game #10882683185: Table Anticipate - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:28:00 ET - 2009/02/28
Seat 1: FoldiWanKenobi ($1.85)
Seat 2: mbburch ($10.84)
Seat 3: Jeksan77 ($1.75)
Seat 4: 420FFSUiTE ($4)
Seat 5: jaylinamusic ($9.50)
Seat 6: mykidsdad4 ($7.68)
Seat 7: Rayan GLB ($2)
Seat 8: FJones ($26.12)
Seat 9: MirrorJK ($3.60)
Jeksan77 posts the small blind of $0.05
420FFSUiTE posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #2

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FJones [4d Ts]

jaylinamusic calls $0.10
mykidsdad4 calls $0.10
Rayan GLB raises to $0.60
FJones calls $0.60
MirrorJK raises to $1.10 (Mistake. Do not screw around here with KK like this. Make a real raise or else the whole table is going to come along for the ride)
jaylinamusic calls $1
mykidsdad4 calls $1
Rayan GLB raises to $2, and is all in
FJones calls $1.40
MirrorJK raises to $2.90
jaylinamusic calls $1.80
mykidsdad4 calls $1.80
FJones raises to $26.12, and is all in (Obviously. They should have seen this coming. I had played 75% of the hands, raised most of them, called reraises, and gotten all in pre flop often).
MirrorJK calls $0.70, and is all in
jaylinamusic calls $6.60, and is all in (Huh? With crap like Queen seven?)
mykidsdad4 calls $4.78, and is all in (Huh? With Crap like Ace five?)

FJones shows [4d Ts]
MirrorJK shows [Kh Kd]
jaylinamusic shows [7c Qc]
mykidsdad4 shows [5s As]
Rayan GLB shows [Qd Ac]
Uncalled bet of $16.62 returned to FrankJones

*** FLOP *** [9h 2h 4s]
*** TURN *** [9h 2h 4s] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [9h 2h 4s Qh] [4c] (Offsuit 4 FTW!)

FJones shows three of a kind, Fours
jaylinamusic shows two pair, Queens and Fours
FJones wins side pot #3 ($3.55) with three of a kind, Fours
mykidsdad4 shows a pair of Fours
FJones wins side pot #2 ($11.43) with three of a kind, Fours
MirrorJK shows two pair, Kings and Fours
FJones wins side pot #1 ($5.97) with three of a kind, Fours
Rayan GLB shows two pair, Queens and Fours
FJones wins the main pot ($9.48) with three of a kind, Fours

jaylinamusic is sitting out
mykidsdad4 is sitting out
Rayan GLB adds $2
MirrorJK is sitting out

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $32.43 Main pot $10.15. Side pot 1 $6.40. Side pot 2 $12.24. Side pot 3 $3.64. | Rake $2
Board: [9h 2h 4s Qh 4c]
Seat 1: FoldiWanKenobi didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: mbburch (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Jeksan77 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: 420FFSUiTE (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: jaylinamusic showed [7c Qc] and lost with two pair, Queens and Fours
Seat 6: mykidsdad4 showed [5s As] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 7: Rayan GLB showed [Qd Ac] and lost with two pair, Queens and Fours
Seat 8: FJones showed [4d Ts] and won ($30.43) with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 9: MirrorJK showed [Kh Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Fours


The guy with KK should not have messed around, and also, why is he sitting with only 1/3 of the buy in? Always sit with a full buy in!

Also, when soemoen is playing like an insane person (as I was), don't mess around with trash hands. Wait for good ones and crush him.

 

[johanneschimpo]

Things to keep in mind -- focus on DECISIONS, not results. Bad players focus on results, good players focus on decisions. Never rabbit hunt. Who cares? You folded already. Never say, "OMG, I FOLDED A ___________." Who cares? you FOLDED! And it was the right fold at the time! Who cares if you fold 2 5 and the flop comes A 3 4 ?

I've been trying to tell my poker playing friend that for years now. Oh you're right. You should have called 15 bets with 9-3 of clubs because one club fell on the flop then two more on the turn and river.
Idiots. I just wish they'd play higher stakes with me if they're going to play like that.

 

[Fjones]

Yeah. I often like to reply with something like, "What a bad fold. You would probably make more money if you stopped making terrible folds like that. who folds a flush???"