• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio

"Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means.”

How do you expect to do that? How do you use create a ligand that isn't shaped exactly to bind at the receptor site, because, well, we already have ligands that are small molecules (smaller than any nanobot will ever be) and do everything we need.

The reason this isn't plausible is because there are better options available.

perhaps for something like HIV...
 
I was actually using mostly Fritjof Capra's books as a reference. He has a PHD in theorhetical physics. Maybe I didn't word his arguments right, but judging by your level of maturity you probably wouldn't stand a chance in disproving anything he says or succesfully arguing against them. I didn't say that physics says that if you imagine something then it must be true, I was referring to the subjectivety of the universe in relation to modern physics. Modern physics theories holds that nothing is truly objective.

When I said doors of the psyche, I didn't mean that literally. Their aren't actual doors with locks in your psyche, it was just a conceptual figure of speech. Famous psychologists like Freud, Jung, and Stan Grof have used the same term when talking about the unconsious and other aspects of the psyche.

Capra and Zukav aren't the most reliable sources you could get your hands on regarding physics, since they mainly focus on interpreting hypothetical interpretations, and thus lands pretty far out in comparison to physicists.

Zukav has a few interesting ideas, and refrains from leaping towards the particularly capitalist faction of writers like Capra have done, which mainly try to get fame and riches by postulating a (quantum mechanical) hypothesis that seems to bring the believers to fame and riches.
 
A story my mum, a doctor, told me: a friend of hers came into the hospital with severe kidney pain and had a history of kidney stones. They were close friends and she knew he wasnt here to score some drugs, so called for a nurse to get her some painkillers (i think pethidine). The nurse came back and whispered to my mum that there was no more pethidine on the ward so she'd have to grab some from another part of the hostiptal. My mum grabbed a bag of saline and and said "OK, i'll just get this drip started" (not mentioning that it was just saline in order to keep the vein open) and the patient reacted EXACTLY as if he had been given a good dose of pethidine, pain vanished, euphoria set in, etc. When the nurse came came back she gave him the real pethidine and his body reacted as if it had been given 2 full doses, his heart rate went WAAAAY down 25-30bpm. So narcan in hand she looked after him for the next few hours.

Now thats not proof of any sort, but placebo and our bodies own chemical processes are very powerful things.

I personlly have reached LSD-like states of thinking and comprehension while meditating. Just because a certain person is unable to attain a given state, doesnt mean that NO person can attain that state without chemicals.
 
^ If you knew anything related to the physics or whatever else we're talking you would say more than just saying Capra isn't a reliable source because he's old. Like try to prove anything I said as being untrue. Or atleast explain why Capra's books aren't a reliable source of information. Capra never mentions anything that isn't fact or is fantasy-like, he only makes observations or offers reasonable solutions to problems.
 
^ If you knew anything related to the physics or whatever else we're talking you would say more than just saying Capra isn't a reliable source because he's old. Like try to prove anything I said as being untrue. Or atleast explain why Capra's books aren't a reliable source of information. Capra never mentions anything that isn't fact or is fantasy-like, he only makes observations or offers reasonable solutions to problems.

Heh, I thought you were kidding at first when you brought up Capra in a serious discussion. I should have realized. He mentions lots that sounds like fact but isn't, and- as I said you were doing earlier- takes restricted theories and grossly expands them to whatever he feels like. It's really no wonder that you'd be drawn to Capra, he's prone to taking theories out of context, ballooning and mysticizing them, exactly what you've been trying to do.

Here's a common critique I quickly found:

Burton Guttman's analysis of Fritjof Capra's worldview (July/August 2005) awakened old memories. About 1977, Capra was a guest speaker on the campus where I was a faculty member. He had been invited (and paid well) to discuss his macaronic theological opus, The Tao of Physics. What he really wanted to talk about, though, was his new devotion to traditional Chinese medicine. Being a young, healthy man at the time, Capra had found that his tar ch'i teacher could fulfill all his medical needs. He was voluble on the subject, and finally made the flat statement, "Modern medicine never cured anybody of anything."

I happened to be on the panel that was to discuss his talk, and I couldn't let that pass. At the time, the worldwide smallpox-eradication program was nearing its conclusion. There was only one small focus of smallpox left, somewhere in Somalia, and that was eradicated soon afterward. So I said, "The human race has plenty of things to be ashamed of, but if there is one thing it can be proud of, it is the eradication of the horrible scourge of smallpox."

With a straight face, Capra replied, "Modern medicine has had nothing to do with that."

My jaw dropped. I asked, "How do you explain the fact that smallpox is about to disappear from the face of the earth?"

"Oh," said Capra, "it's just been going away by itself."

Needless to say, I never again felt the need to take seriously anything Capra had to say.

Lawrence S. Lerner Professor Emeritus
College of Natural Sciences and Mathematics
California State University

Long Beach, California

Burton S. Guttman rightly points out the sloppiness of Fritjof Capra's thinking and the shallowness of his knowledge. However, he's a little too quick to ridicule General Systems Theory. In fact, General Systems Theory is yet another branch of knowledge that Capra knows little about.

General Systems Theory is a small but respectable interdisciplinary school of thought that flourished between about 1940 and 1980. Although its adherents included mathematicians, philosophers, sociologists, and psychologists, its main contributions were probably to cybernetics and advanced modeling techniques.

Where Capra goes wrong is in seeing General Systems Theory as a replacement for reductionism in every circumstance. Although it is hard to generalize about a large group of diverse thinkers, major figures in the school such as Gregory Bateson did not see their work as replacing reductionism but as supplementing it. In particular, they thought it self-evident that reductionism, although obviously successful in the hard sciences, was often not very useful in the social sciences.

As he does with almost every thought he stumbles across, Capra overextends, oversimplifies, and over-mysticizes General Systems Theory and makes it something far removed from what it originally was: a critique of science made mostly by working scientists.

Bruce Byfield
When I said doors of the psyche, I didn't mean that literally. Their aren't actual doors with locks in your psyche, it was just a conceptual figure of speech. Famous psychologists like Freud, Jung, and Stan Grof have used the same term when talking about the unconsious and other aspects of the psyche.

Quite obviously the question. You can't have this discussion about other ways to accomplish the same things drugs do if you're going to start using cliches as evidence. If you want to have a serious discussion about anything outside of tarot cards and amulets, this is a really weak foundation to build your argument on.

^ Michael Strassman was able to prove that in his DMT research correct?

I assume you mean Rick Strassman? He never proved that or much else (ie: the whole DMT-released during NDE and death thing, etc), though he has done a lot of really interesting research. As far as I can tell so far it's only conjecture that DMT is produced in the pineal gland, and of course, there's absolutely no evidence backing his claims about the NDE.
 
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Tsukasa-
speaking now as an outside observer and the OP of this thread, let me assure you that you are losing this argument with Hammilton by an enormous margin. however, since this argument is taking place in the real world and not in the dream world that you reference as being "what you live for", i dont imagine this defeat will concern you.

on a more serious note, i started this thread in order to discuss the possibility of inducing a drug-state (opioid, amphetamine), without introducing an actual chemical agonist (drug) into the body. Tsukasa, you seem intent on derailing it and steering it towards some meditation, naked drumming direction. While im aware that these sorts of things can produce a trance-like state, they by no means serve as a substitute for the things im talking about. Admit defeat...
 
I dont think highly of Capra for reasons mentioned by previous posters.It seems to me that what he presented tends more to the -if you allow me- "new ageish" branch of notion that "modern science is all crap, the meditating bald guy with the droning sound in the background had it all right from the start, we just dont know how to interprete him correctly". Sorry ,but this is a trend with no basis, its the foundation based on "vagueness" and "stretch a theory as far as it can go" that can make a prophet literally out of everyone. A modern day Delphi Oracle...

Before i get accused of being closeminded , let me state that if one was to exhibit proof or demonstrate for me even the most far fetched, absurd even for hardcore mysticists phenomeno i would be first to say "Ok ,lets study it ,find out what it is, why it happens and if we can derive some practical applications of it!".

Still ,the above is not to say that "endogenous" phenomena not fully understood yet, do not play a role. A rather interesting thread, while highly controversial is this one. It implicates Pavlovian conditioning and associative learning as a clinically significant factor in "tolerance" . The pubmed links the OP gives are interesting,albeit old.The OP might oversimplify,but the links given are worth a read. I would like to see more recent research on that. That is not to say of course that the phenomena presented there are "in the realms of metaphysics".

Let me close that with a phrase of mine that i usually say to people "too exuberant" on believing rather than researching:

"Before you research metaphysics,be sure to be well educated in physics,
Before you research parapsychology , be sure to be well educated in psychology,
Before you venture outside of known science, be sure to be familiar with science!"

Heh, i gave it as a "yoda" saying, as a "guru's wise words". Maybe this makes it more passable ;)
 
^ If you knew anything related to the physics or whatever else we're talking you would say more than just saying Capra isn't a reliable source because he's old. Like try to prove anything I said as being untrue. Or atleast explain why Capra's books aren't a reliable source of information. Capra never mentions anything that isn't fact or is fantasy-like, he only makes observations or offers reasonable solutions to problems.

Hammilton has already done a fine job of rebutting this. The point is he takes a fact (or in the tao of physics some early particle physics work that has now been suprseded) and extends it beyond what it actually can support.

It's an old ruse of the charlatan, you place your theory just beyond the current reach of science and say 'well, it can't be disproven...' or 'it might be the case'.

I'm not anti mystic btw, i just prefer mine to be rational mysticism.
 
Hammilton - even so, just because someone taken part of a conversation out of context and called it stupid, that doesn't mean that all his ideas and conjectures are wrong or unreasonable. I don't even agree with him on that particular thing anyway, because I know he isn't an expert on the subject. Although he is right that generally modern medicine has rarely helped cured anything other than things like infections and broken bones.. those jews would rather just give you a bandaid, extract money from you, and tell you GTFO. But now that more eastern-like medicine is being incorporated to the biomedical model, it's become much more efficient. Guided imagery for example, uses the power of the mind to greatly increase the patients resistance to pain.

yea, i meant Rick Strassman? the author of DMT: the spirit molecule.

I'm aware that both Capra and Strassman do make conjectures, like who doesn't? even our modern physics theories are still just THEORIES. We're not even sure exactly how the universe works, so we can't really be sure about anything. In order to know one thing, we must know everything else. Science only uses the most relevant parts.

Daddysgone - How am I derailing this thread? Meditation has been shown to alter brain chemistry and get you high. Ever hear of those monks and yogi's attainign a state of ecstacy or divine bliss? what do you think that is? www.biologyofkundalini.com is also worth mentioned. It's a legitimate yet mysterious syndrome that basically causes neurotransmitters to go crazy and big physical changes in the body happen over time. It may be the underlying cause of the overpowering ecstacy that yogi's and others have to endure.
 
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I'm aware that both Capra and Strassman do make conjectures, like who doesn't? even our modern physics theories are still just THEORIES.
I do have some sympathy for the idea that quantum physics could be related to things previously considered mystical or magical or whatever. But I also think that one should be very careful about what one can legitimately claim about it....

It's reasonable, perhaps, to argue that aspects of quantum physics (non-local stuff like entanglement, etc) could allow (or perhaps better: fail to rule out) such proposed phenomena as telepathy; whereas classical physics does predict that any such action at a distance would not happen, if I understand rightly. [But I'm not a physicist, and will happily be corrected on either of those points...]

But that's as far as it goes at the moment, as far as I'm aware. Until and unless testable (falsifiable) predictions are made, based on the idea that (to continue with the telepathy example) quantum entanglement mediates telepathy (I'm leaving aside the question of whether telepathy exists: personally, I'm not unpersuaded by the evidence, though I acknowledge it's controversial); then it isn't a theory, in the scientific sense of the word.

As I understand it, quantum theory is a theory in the proper sense: a model that makes precise predictions, which - as it happens, since it's a successful theory - fit the evidence very well.

The idea that quantum theory can be extended to explain mystical phenomena, or meditation, or whatever, is not a theory in that sense. It is mere speculation (perhaps interesting speculation, perhaps quite fun to discuss in the right context), rather like - again, if I understand rightly - string theory: It doesn't make predictions that could be falsified, rather it offers untestable interpretations.

We're not even sure exactly how the universe works, so we can't really be sure about anything.
Sure, we can't be 100% sure about anything. That's obvious, and rather uninteresting. Yes, our certainty about anything is less than 100%; but if you can say something about absolutely everything, then it's probably not worth saying. Practically, one has to set a criterion (whether explicitly, as in science; or just intuitively, as we do all the time in everyday life) for how much uncertainty you're willing to put up with. I don't know for sure that Russia exists, but there's so much evidence for it, that it would be folly to act as if it didn't. Conversely, there's so little evidence (is there any?) that any of these quantum mysticists' ideas accurately reflect reality (there may be no evidence against them, but if you believed everything for which there was no evidence against, then you'd believe virtually any nonsense); that it would be equally foolish, imo, to act as if there were any truth in them.

ETA: Having said that... as I said, I'm sympathetic to these quantum mystical ideas; i.e. I like the ideas, aesthetically. There are neat parallels. Perhaps even suggestive parallels. But until there's more than that; until there's an actual THEORY (;)); I'll treat such ideas like I treat, say, Doctor Who or aspects of some religious stories: something I find enjoyable and beautiful and interesting, but wouldn't claim to have any real bearing on truth, nor imagine would have much relevance to a scientific discussion.

In order to know one thing, we must know everything else. Science only uses the most relevant parts.
Not sure what you mean by this... do you mean scientific practice is insufficiently holistic, too often confined to one level of analysis? If so, perhaps that's a fair point, but the answer to that isn't to give up on science and speculate wildly on a whim: without the rigour of science, our evolved minds are even more likely to be confined by their ingrained perspectives, and we'll have even less chance of approaching truth. The answer, surely, is to do science better.

Or if you're thinking in absolute, black-and-white terms, and suggesting that you really have to know everything in order to know anything, presumably the implication of that is that knowledge is impossible. But surely it's only absolute certain knowledge that's impossible; and if that's the case, why worry about it? Be practical, accept less than perfect knowledge (since that's all you get) and do your best to bring that knowledge as close to reality as you can. Giving up on knowledge seems rather a shame.


ETA: An obliquely related (both to the above semi-tangent; and to the OP's question) thought: the scientific method is a psychedelic method. Or, to put it more like an existentialist book title, 'Science is a Psychedelia'...

One of the things that can be done chemically (specifically, arguably, by psychedelics) is this: seeing past, or breaking down, the normal evolved and/or socially trained filters and perspectives of perception, emotion and cognition. Another way of getting past these filters is through the rigour of the scientific method. Indeed, that is - I'd contend - rather the point of the scientific method. Not quite what the OP intended, I think: I guess this is a level of analysis issue... I'm suggesting the scientific method achieves a particular abstract thing (the cleansed doors of perception, if you like) also attributed to psychedelics; but of course it does it in a a distributed manner across people and times, and it doesn't match psychedelics experientially, by any means. (Although, actually, no I take that back: in my experience, the experience of doing science has moments that are on the psychedelic spectrum. For example, when a result or a theoretical implication undermines your natural intuitions about something. I don't know, maybe I experience science as psychedelically tinged because my psychedelic experiences tinge everything... or maybe it's because much of the science I'm doing at the moment involves peering into people's brains, including my own, and seeing pretty colourful blobs appearing in them. :D)

Oh and, as Marx noted, opium can be done by religious means. ;)
 
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many ppl report on datura they actually felt a drug while they werend really taking it, this sure means the brain could give you the feeling of a certain drug without one, but i'm not sure you could get the brain to do that without taking anything
 
seconded.

I'm aware that both Capra and Strassman do make conjectures, like who doesn't? even our modern physics theories are still just THEORIES. We're not even sure exactly how the universe works, so we can't really be sure about anything. In order to know one thing, we must know everything else. Science only uses the most relevant parts.

This is the only part I'll address.

I think you don't understand what a theory is. You're using it in the sense that a theory is a hypothesis, which it clearly isn't. String 'theory', GUT's, etc are largely just hypotheses. Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't make claims based on them. For something to attain the status of theory (not just the title!) it has to have some real evidence behind it.

I object less to Strassman's claims about DMT being produced in the pituitary gland than to the release on death stuff. The pituitary idea could reasonably be considered a theory, the death thing, quite obviously not. There's good reason to suspect that this is where it's produced, the enzymes, the confirmed presense of melatonin which is closely related and could be metabolized. Reasonable and based on evidence. The idea that DMT is released on death or responsible for the ND experience? Perhaps a bit reasonable (both involve visions) but not based on evidence and reason suggests that it's not (the visions of are qualitatively different nature, at least as described).

Capra may have an advanced degree, but his claims go FAR, FAR beyond anything Strassman ever thought of claiming. None of it is verifiable nor is any based on real science- or at least not based on science intended to be stretched so far.
 
Well, I suppose you could reach that high a level of satisfaction upon receiving a PhD from Harvard or winning the lottery, but its a lot more convenient to do a line.
 
I really love that quote. I used to have a wetware hacking website. rTMS, Cranial Electrotherapy Stimulation, the dreammachine and its modern equivalent, binaural beats, and other technologies that can produce verifiable results and are extremely interesting. CES is something that more people should look into as a withdrawal aid and even as a potentiator. certain TMS settings allegedly can produce opiate like effects and analgesia, as well as psychedelic/"spiritual" effects. lets see them outlaw electromagnetism and circuit boards.
 
TMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) is indeed a fascinating technology, although of course it's operating on a different level of analysis from the neurotransmitter/receptor level of chemical methods, so there may be limits as to how much overlap in effects you can get. As you say, though, comparable effects may be attainable through this very different method. You mention the psychedelic/'spiritual' effects: Indeed, I recall hearing of a study on a particular part of the brain (I forget which) that, when targeted with TMS, produced the impression that there was an entity present (I seem to remember Richard Dawkins didn't have quite the typical reaction to this, but most people felt there was a spirit in the room with them, or some such :D), so yeah, entity contact by magnetic means. Kind of. I guess the TMS experience would not be entirely comparable to DMT or whatever.
 
I remember the same thing, but I've never been able to find it since! Any help would be great
 
"Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means.” -William Burroughs

I've always liked that quote. I like the simplicity of it, and more importantly, I like what it suggests. It brings up the intuitive idea that chemicals are only ONE way of inducing a desired effect.
Now here's what I dont like...Why has this idea barely progressed beyond a theoretical thought. In practice, in everyday life, what Burroughs said just doesnt hold true. Now I know there are exceptions and many of you are already thinking of arguments (some of which im sure are valid), but IME, if you want to produce a true, profound psychoactive effect, chemicals are still the only real show in town.
I know there has been recent work using electronic and magnetic headpieces that have been shown to create "altered states of mind", but im really not aware of any other innovations or breakthroughs.
I suppose im not looking for an answer to any specific question here, but id just like to open up a discussion regarding why we still are totally reliant on drugs when it comes to pyschoactive effects? any ideas??

I don't think, especially considering his occult influences, Burroughs was referring to specifically re-creating the effects of certain drugs, or in other words he wasn't speaking in a recreational context. More likely he was referring to the intended ends achieved by using chemicals to alter consciousness/ mental processes. For example: consciousness expansion, changing the personality, to counteract depression/anxiety, bliss, increasing work capacity, etc.

In that regard, to say he was correct is an understatement.
 
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