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Masculinity and Psychonautics?

If your a psychonaut/user of psychedelics, are you.....

  • Male?

    Votes: 215 92.3%
  • Female?

    Votes: 18 7.7%

  • Total voters
    233
I dont know why less women trip but I am very thankful that it is so. Girls are unstable and emotional enough, they really do not need further mindfuck to torture their husbands/boyfriends lives with.

I strongly believe that in general females are not properly equiped in the mental sense to really go far out there and return to society in one piece. Just look at how fucked up most women who smoke marijuana daily are.
 
okay honestly dude, i don't think that women who smoke marijuana daily are ANY more fucked up than man who smoke marijuana daily.

moreover, i find that yours is a typically male attitude i do my very best to avoid. you are not interested in actually trying to understand women, but instead choose to label them (roughly half of the human race by the way) "emotionally unstable", while you, as a man, are "emotionally stable", & thus superior. this outlook is called sexism.
 
A whole lotta heat headin' your way, TWW.

Just a heads-up... :\
 
& rightfully so. ;]

not trying to be a dick or anything, but man do i hate seeing that, especially in the psychedelic community of all places, where i would ASSUME that most of this kind of thinking has long since dissolved.

i shouldn't be so naive. :!
 
theWorldWithin said:
I dont know why less women trip but I am very thankful that it is so. Girls are unstable and emotional enough, they really do not need further mindfuck to torture their husbands/boyfriends lives with.

I strongly believe that in general females are not properly equiped in the mental sense to really go far out there and return to society in one piece. Just look at how fucked up most women who smoke marijuana daily are.

What a bigoted and asinine remark. You are an ass.
 
I would really like to know the people posting their opinions in this thread.

It sounds to me like everyone here is really inexperienced and has decided to make a claim based off the one or two women they've clung to in their life or mentioned hallucinogens to.

I mean, how can anyone generalize either way: "women are into self-exploration" or "women only like to have safe things" Hurr, let me tell you how women are... durrr and how about that airline food???

With the possible exceptions of "the is" and "the world within" it looks like everyone is taking their comedy routine seriously. :\ :sad clowns:
 
HottButtaz said:
I mean, how can anyone generalize either way: "women are into self-exploration" or "women only like to have safe things" Hurr, let me tell you how women are... durrr and how about that airline food???
You've hit the nail on the head: women are just as varied as men when it comes to searching out and indulging in psychedelic experiences--aka not-sexist.

HottButtaz said:
...it looks like everyone is taking their comedy routine seriously. :\ :sad clowns:
Could be some are taking their serious routine seriously, too. :p
 
StarTripper said:
I'm incredibly introverted for a female (INTP)
I'm incredibly INTP, and I've never seen anyone else declare it like this before. Thumbs up.

don't have much to add here, just felt like bumping a thread cuz some shit caught my eye. However, lemme state, for statistical purposes, I'm with a girl right now who owned PiHKAL and TiHKAL in print long before I ever indulged in research chemicals or knew who Shulgin was. She is a far more headstrong tripper than I've ever been, as she has difficult experiences nearly every time she doses and keeps on truckin' like the lunatic she is. She isn't promiscuous or particularly foolish, either. Girls like this do exist, apparently.

also, hey guys. Haven't posted for like....months, but I'm still alive n' shit.
 
after rereading this thread I noticed that something was missing and I'd like to throw it in here because I think it's pretty integral to the debate: 30-second introduction to feminist theory!

(I've been around the internet long enough to know that I'll probably get blowtorched. please note that I have nothing to do with this theoretical perspective. it is the result of years of work by theorists like Dworkin, Butler, etc...but in a discussion about gender roles in a particular subculture, I think it's pretty relevant. flame away!)

consider the sentence:

men/women are naturally/inherently some specific quality such as adventurous/security-seeking/insecure/headstrong/foolish

let's take this one step at a time:

men/women: I think most of us have recognized that these constructs are just that—socially constructed. however, what hasn't really been discussed here is the context of that social construction: these gendered roles are the product of a patriarchal Western society and, historically, they have been used as a tool of systematic oppresion. the characteristics that we associate with femaleness are subordinate ones—passivity, nurturing, security-seeking, emotion (as opposed to reason), fragility—because having women conform to a subordinate role consolidates their status as second-class members of society.

naturally/inherently: this part is problematic for two reasons. one is the above; if gender roles are socially constructed, not biologically innate, then the whole idea of "inherent nature" is meaningless. another reason is that sex and gender are two different things. sex is a biological categorization, determined by what's between your legs; gender is a personal identification with a particular gendered role that can be the same as biological sex but often differs. gender is much more variable and fluid than biological sex; take for example transgendered people, who were born with a particular biological sex but feel that their gender does not match their physical sex.

so to bring this back to masculinity and psychonautics...think this may clarify a few reasons why women don't seem to play as large of a role in drug culture as men do:

- women still aren't welcome, much in the same way that they're not welcome in construction crews, upper management of large corporations, etc. this has nothing to do with how individual men feel about having women in the community, but rather with the codes of behaviour and social structures that exist in the community. regardless of whether or not a particular woman uses psychedelic drugs, she is probably less likely to actively participate in a social community that is uncomfortable or unwelcoming.
- we've talked about the negative social consequences of being involved with this community, and it's been suggested that women are less willing to incur those consequences than men are because of their inherent security-seeking/approval-seeking/less adventurous/etc nature. I'd argue that it has little or nothing to do with inherent willingness to risk social consequences, but rather a dramatic difference in those consequences for men and women. promiscuous sex is a perfect analogy; guys are studs, women are sluts. I think there's a similar attitude when it comes to drug use; men are praised for reckless/extreme/risky behaviour, and women are disapproved of for engaging in the exact same behaviour. this, again, has little to do with individual men approving of women who use psychedelics, but a larger societal tendency to subordinate women by discouraging non-conformity to the traditional female role.
 
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tobala said:
I don't know you, I've never met you, but I'm madly in love with you.

I'm willing to travel thousands of miles so that (apologies in advance for the cliche) your whimsy is my command, and I will undergo any anatomical surgery necessary so that I may have your babies.

I will be the wingdings to your sansserif.

BTW, do you like Pink Floyd? :D
I have to admit that I'm more into stuff like godspeed you! black emperor, aphex twin and steve reich than pink floyd. but the offer of wingdings and pregnancy is appreciated. (:
 
sansserif said:
I have to admit that I'm more into stuff like godspeed you! black emperor, aphex twin and steve reich than pink floyd. but the offer of wingdings and pregnancy is appreciated.
Well if we can see eye-to-eye on fonts and babies, there's hope for us. We can work the music thing out later...

sansserif said:
Uh oh, maybe not. Left-handed people are crazy! :D

HottButtaz said:
That was level 4 irony newb!!
Are you accusing me of being serious? Expect forthcoming legal action, sir. ;)
 
Lol, everyone is taking the question to mean: who do you like more, males or females? ;)

Let's see, do I say women are too stupid and cowardly to take psychedelics? Or do I say men are so stupid and reckless they take psychedelics? ;)
 
yeah so, i just want to say that this is a very... interesting thread. it's inspired alot of thought. errrr, i need sleep. peace.

:P
 
sansserif said:
after rereading this thread I noticed that something was missing and I'd like to throw it in here because I think it's pretty integral to the debate: 30-second introduction to feminist theory!

(I've been around the internet long enough to know that I'll probably get blowtorched. please note that I have nothing to do with this theoretical perspective. it is the result of years of work by theorists like Dworkin, Butler, etc...but in a discussion about gender roles in a particular subculture, I think it's pretty relevant. flame away!)

consider the sentence:

men/women are naturally/inherently some specific quality such as adventurous/security-seeking/insecure/headstrong/foolish

let's take this one step at a time:

men/women: I think most of us have recognized that these constructs are just that—socially constructed. however, what hasn't really been discussed here is the context of that social construction: these gendered roles are the product of a patriarchal Western society and, historically, they have been used as a tool of systematic oppresion. the characteristics that we associate with femaleness are subordinate ones—passivity, nurturing, security-seeking, emotion (as opposed to reason), fragility—because having women conform to a subordinate role consolidates their status as second-class members of society.

naturally/inherently: this part is problematic for two reasons. one is the above; if gender roles are socially constructed, not biologically innate, then the whole idea of "inherent nature" is meaningless. another reason is that sex and gender are two different things. sex is a biological categorization, determined by what's between your legs; gender is a personal identification with a particular gendered role that can be the same as biological sex but often differs. gender is much more variable and fluid than biological sex; take for example transgendered people, who were born with a particular biological sex but feel that their gender does not match their physical sex.

so to bring this back to masculinity and psychonautics...think this may clarify a few reasons why women don't seem to play as large of a role in drug culture as men do:

- women still aren't welcome, much in the same way that they're not welcome in construction crews, upper management of large corporations, etc. this has nothing to do with how individual men feel about having women in the community, but rather with the codes of behaviour and social structures that exist in the community. regardless of whether or not a particular woman uses psychedelic drugs, she is probably less likely to actively participate in a social community that is uncomfortable or unwelcoming.
- we've talked about the negative social consequences of being involved with this community, and it's been suggested that women are less willing to incur those consequences than men are because of their inherent security-seeking/approval-seeking/less adventurous/etc nature. I'd argue that it has little or nothing to do with inherent willingness to risk social consequences, but rather a dramatic difference in those consequences for men and women. promiscuous sex is a perfect analogy; guys are studs, women are sluts. I think there's a similar attitude when it comes to drug use; men are praised for reckless/extreme/risky behaviour, and women are disapproved of for engaging in the exact same behaviour. this, again, has little to do with individual men approving of women who use psychedelics, but a larger societal tendency to subordinate women by discouraging non-conformity to the traditional female role.
So it goes when we’re all using labels that we developed for practical purposes that we then (or always) mistook for metaphysical distinctions. Play around with prenatal hormone levels and you can get “male” “female” or a whole menagerie of hermaphroditic forms between. Sexuality and gender exist along a continuum skewed to each extreme but not limited to them. It is not controversial however, in the biological sciences, to suggest that male and female hormones/chromosomes have neurodevelopmental functions that are reflected in an organism’s “innate” behavior i.e. it’s not ALL a social construction (don’t say that if you’re the president of Harvard.) For instance, “exploratory” or “individualistic” behavior can be operationally defined and applied to observations of male infants, female infants, and female infants that have been exposed to high levels of prenatal testosterone as a result of sharing the womb with their male co-twin--who have all been raised for their very short time on earth in an environment most would consider sufficiently gender neutral. I posted further details about this earlier. I do thank you for the much needed infusion of some feminist theory and your discussion of the ambiguities of sex/gender terms.

Then there was this study, which I also posted about (#54), which contained 25,000 respondents and has remained consistent in its findings for 29 years that strongly indicates that males and females, when given the opportunity, are just as likely to try and continue to use psychedelic drugs. If we are to believe that females are effectively discouraged from using psychedelics in a similar gender-hypocritical way that they are discouraged from engaging in promiscuous sex or joining a construction crew, then they shouldn’t be equally as likely to try and, especially, to continue to use psychedelic drugs, given the opportunity, as their male counterparts. Not happening to have an opportunity is not the same as gender-mediated social discouragment acting on choice or attitudes given an opportunity. The question of if and why, in general, “males” still use psychedelic drugs more or with a greater passion than “females” outside of the usual (youthful) social context of the illegal psychedelic drugs referred to in the study is still open (I offered one possible explanation in #54.) So, for those who might care, if this debate is going to continue in a constructive and progressive fashion the study should be used as a touchstone, be argued against, reinterpreted, or in some way at least have lip service paid to it.
 
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Wow. I just had a severe thought drive about this so i went searching and found this incredible thread. (i am male BTW)

I know one female in particular that is aggravatingly superficial and the happy socialite type. I see her as the archetypal female, doesn't really have any exploratory drive, incredibly conformist, but is also incredibly caring and nurturing. Always in balance, no peaks of ecstasy, no pits of despair.
I see myself as the exact opposite, always exploring, very non-conformist, loner tendencies. I have very few friends, mainly because i don't know anyone on the same level as me. I live in a very "booze/coke, Top40/rock/country/rap" area and it drives me up the wall. Ever since my discovery of psychedelics this rift has only grown. ALL of my real trips are solo. I see myself as always chasing something, incredibly resourcesful, problem solving, "the provider" type.

Anyways this girl used to smoke pot a long time ago and i asked her why she quit and she said it just made her feel so disconnected from the world (my male mind sees this as being a good thing, being disconnected from the world (ego) is enlightening, revelatory, evolutionary), but it means venturing into scary places sometimes.
I've always wondered what it would be like for her to trip (like a true psychedelic experience) but then got thinking she's the type that might truly not be able to handle it, her ego is just too comfortable and set in stone.

I know different people have their own desires, you can't make anyone want to trip and i'm not trying to, i'm just trying to grasp the reason/concept.

The funny thing is, being total opposites, her being the "archetypal female" and me being the "archetypal male" we have this incredible primal connection. I'm just confused at how due to my non-conformist exploratory psychedelic use i've become alienated from the social world (her lifestyle) we still have this deep connection that transcends the psychedelic alienation from the social world. I'm really trying to integrate the two worlds because the connective union is there, it's the separate worlds that are keeping us apart.

I'm trying to figure out how to work this out, this kind of turned into a relationship related post i guess. Over the 1/2 hour i've been thinking/ typing this just kind of came out of free-association.
I just saw this thread and figured if i bumped it with my konundrum the answer may come out of the woodwork.
 
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