Dissociatives DXM & Ketamine Tolerance Survey & Management Thread (your experience is needed!)

[Khacorrat]

I'm a bit fucked up but IIRC ~9 times a month risks bladder damage, I assume that's dose related as well. Be careful, you may be pushing the limit, worth checking safe levels.

Thanks for the kind words placebonaut: Yeah, clearly this frequency was too much, hopefully, I didn't maintain it for a long time. Now I stuck to once or twice in a month but no more. It's far better both for my long term health and the effects I feel.

I can see how cannabinoids can induce experientially dissociative colorations upon cognition, but it seems to be much more impactful on internal metacognition shit than it is on qualia. I'm not sure why, it reminds me of salvia in that way though. I would consider both salvia and cannabis to be two examples of what might be best referred to as an "atypical dissociative" for the sake of this conversation, really there's probably a solid nomenclature for all of this out there somewhere I've yet to read through.

About this part and the fact you call Cannabis an "atypical dissociative" is really interesting for me. More than 10 years ago, I had a clearly dissociative-type experience with Cannabis. To add more context, the night before we goes to a hardtek party with a friend where we both drop MDMA (aroung 150mg). So basically we spend the night and the next day without sleep as we need to came home hitchinking (around 2 hours drive).

Once home, I hit a bang with hash and weed and it clearly it me hard. From here, I go to my home and again do some hitchinking. This was one of the most memorable experience I had, once I started to walk, I could clearly see me from above but it was not stressful. I just felt out of my body. Plus for the last bit of my way home, I had to walk 2km (less than a mile) on a road in a middle of the forest (no lights and a lot of noise from the animals there) during winter. Clearly when you talk about Cannabis as an "atypical dissociative", I completely share this point of view. On another hand, I never relive this kind of experience, but maybe it's because I'm a heavy smoker/vaporizer.

When you say you have no anxiety, altered sense of time, or thought loops from cannabis, are you saying that you think that's the result of NMDA antagonist tolerance? I've never experienced anxiety or thought loops from cannabinoids, not a single time in my entire life. Eating an eighth of an ounce of decarboxylated THCa crystal doesn't even do shit like that to me, but time dilation can certainly occur.

About "thought loops" on Cannabis, maybe it's more associated with anxiety ? Maybe KetTolerance could tell us more about it. From my own experience, I share yours (besides I never consume cannabinoids) and never had thought loops on Cannabis. But time dilatation is clearly present with high dose edible specially (AVB butter on a brownie). This part is also represented in litterature in Artificial Paradises from Charles Baudelaire.

I couldn't find any definitions of the term concentration floor in pharmacology literature just bopping around on Google Scholar real quick, but I'm puzzled by the concept of "binding to all receptors". Few things outside of like, full agonist nitrogen mustard chemical weapon type shit that you have likely never even heard of can achieve something akin to this degree of receptor hypersaturation, at least as far as I'm personally aware. I think that whole concept is not studied much because generally it's undesirable to carpet bomb any biochemical circuit like this, neurotransmitters or not. I've not tried dizocilpine (MK-801) but I have used a handful of arylcyclohexylamines, so far the list is DCK, ketamine, 3-HO-PCP, 3-MeO-PCP, 3-HO-PCE, 3-MeO-2'-Oxo-PCP (MXPCP), 2F-O-PCE (aka 2-FXE or CanKet) and 2-Fluorodeschloroketamine, maybe I'm missing one? I don't think so, pretty stoned rn though ngl.

How could you compare 3-MeO-PCP to Ketamine ? I read a lot about it but I'm curious about your insights.

Of those drugs, I would absolutely love to know why a PCE derivative (which is almost guaranteed to be of higher potency) would be more harmful than PCP. Arylcyclohexylamine toxicity is essentially a direct function of dose, the amount of ketamine you need to get to an equal experience compared to 3-HO-PCE or CanKet would tell me that ketamine is significantly more toxic than both. Despite having not used it, I checked around on unsubstituted PCE's dose range and it's ~3-12mg, whereas 3-HO-PCE is ~5-25mg, and CanKet is ~15-75mg.

I'm curious about this part, there is some studies who share this view ? For me it looks like a way for the dissos users to reassure themselves (myself included), but if it's true it's clearly interesting to use the more potent Arylcyclohexylamine.

 

[Didgital]

With the latter drugs, the kindling can also rapidly reintroduce dependency

After 2 physical dependencies on benzos, I basically ruined any chance of being able to use them medicinally. If I take benzos for more than 2 days, on day i start getting WD's when it wears off. It's a damn shame because benzos ARE useful in emergency situations.

 

[placebonaut]

It's a damn shame because benzos ARE useful in emergency situations.

yes they can be, but in the UK they're never fucking prescribed it seems.

got severe acute anxiety and insomnia? uk guidelines allow benzo's to be prescribed for that, my experience was that I got SSRIs and 10 weeks CBT, what fucking use is that when I needed help straight away?!

 

[Esperighanto]

About this part and the fact you call Cannabis an "atypical dissociative" is really interesting for me. More than 10 years ago, I had a clearly dissociative-type experience with Cannabis. To add more context, the night before we goes to a hardtek party with a friend where we both drop MDMA (aroung 150mg). So basically we spend the night and the next day without sleep as we need to came home hitchinking (around 2 hours drive).

Once home, I hit a bang with hash and weed and it clearly it me hard. From here, I go to my home and again do some hitchinking. This was one of the most memorable experience I had, once I started to walk, I could clearly see me from above but it was not stressful. I just felt out of my body. Plus for the last bit of my way home, I had to walk 2km (less than a mile) on a road in a middle of the forest (no lights and a lot of noise from the animals there) during winter. Clearly when you talk about Cannabis as an "atypical dissociative", I completely share this point of view. On another hand, I never relive this kind of experience, but maybe it's because I'm a heavy smoker/vaporizer.

Cannabis/Dagga, Hodgkinsine (from Psychotria colorata), Nitrous/probably also Xenon), and a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting are all definitely "atypical" in the way of them using non-NMDA antagonistic qualities. Perampanel may fit this definition too, I'm not sure. I also find that memantine being post-synaptic instead of pre-synaptic (hope I didn't get those twisted, would look foolish but my apologies if I did goof like that) makes it feel meaningfully different, despite its primary pharmacokinetic mechanism being NMDA antagonism.

Cannabis acting in a dissociative fashion is something that only occurs when people take exceptionally long T-breaks, just in my personal observations of those around me. People using it once every 1-2 months in extremely high doses when they do use it, seem to be the ones who experience the highest frequency (and intensity) of traditionally define dissociative effects. Cannabis has a lot of everything imo, it can exhibit sedative, stimulating, psychedelic, empathogenic and dissociative effects all in different unpredictable, mild fashions, it's this beautiful mixture of so many things, it's profoundly unique. Dagga stands out a lot less imo despite also being a cannabinergic.

How could you compare 3-MeO-PCP to Ketamine ? I read a lot about it but I'm curious about your insights.

3-MeO-PCP is profoundly energizing (I wouldn't say stimulating like amphetamine, but more mania-inducing if that makes sense), pro-social, not very delusion heavy given how much mania it can induce, and it exhibits a similarly effective long-lasting antidepressant effect to ketamine. I often say "Ketamine is like if PCP had some sort of cognitive developmental disorder leading it to be more dull than normal", or something along those lines, just paraphrasing this phrase I turn to often. Ketamine is more of a drug to decompress, look inwards, that sort of deal. Hope my somewhat ambiguous explanation makes sense, if you want a more in depth one I'm definitely willing to write up my personal experiences on the 9 arylcyclohexylamines I've used so far.

I'm curious about this part, there is some studies who share this view ? For me it looks like a way for the dissos users to reassure themselves (myself included), but if it's true it's clearly interesting to use the more potent Arylcyclohexylamine.

I've been slowly falling into an etizolam/ruby red grapefruit/MGM-15 haze over the past hour or so, so my capacities to dig around academic literature are collapsing right now, but there's a chance that this is some broscience bullshit floating around too. I'm imploring anyone reading this to check, but I think you may have just changed my mind on this matter dude, as I can't find adequate sourcing for it. Your skepticism here has helped to refine my understandings towards the more concrete and provable, genuinely dude, I appreciate it a ton.

 

[Khacorrat]

Cannabis/Dagga, Hodgkinsine (from Psychotria colorata), Nitrous/probably also Xenon), and a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting are all definitely "atypical" in the way of them using non-NMDA antagonistic qualities.

Sounds really interesting! I didn't knew Psychotria colorata so I checked it out and it looks like a really interesting plant. From my understanding it contains both DMT and also this Hodgkinskine you mentioned.
I need to dig up about the "traditional" use of it, but I really want to try it myself! I'm curious about the way this compound interact with DMT and the "classic" experience

Perampanel may fit this definition too, I'm not sure. I also find that memantine being post-synaptic instead of pre-synaptic (hope I didn't get those twisted, would look foolish but my apologies if I did goof like that) makes it feel meaningfully different, despite its primary pharmacokinetic mechanism being NMDA antagonism.

I don't know much about Perampanel but from what I see it looks like a very special compound that I clearly don't want to play with. But it's damn interesting to see that it seems to produce ketamine-like effects. From what I understood, it's not at all an arylcyclohexylamines, right?

I didn't heard about Memantine since recently but the half-life is like crazy long and people seems to trip for days or even weeks on it. I wonder if this kind of compound acting as a dissociative affect the tolerance to arylcyclohexylamimes.
Also, there is'nt some nasty side effects related to the length of the trip?
That's only question and speculation from me, I could clearly dig the literature unfortunately I miss time right now

Cannabis acting in a dissociative fashion is something that only occurs when people take exceptionally long T-breaks, just in my personal observations of those around me. People using it once every 1-2 months in extremely high doses when they do use it, seem to be the ones who experience the highest frequency (and intensity) of traditionally define dissociative effects. Cannabis has a lot of everything imo, it can exhibit sedative, stimulating, psychedelic, empathogenic and dissociative effects all in different unpredictable, mild fashions, it's this beautiful mixture of so many things, it's profoundly unique. Dagga stands out a lot less imo despite also being a cannabinergic.

Yeah I see. In my case, I was at the time a daily smoker who consume 20 bongs a day (weed and tobacco in a mix) so the tolerance wasn't at play here.
On the other hand, I remember that it happens to a friend who were not used to smoke weed at the time. He had a rough time from it.

Also, I would like to second your observation about the panel of effects from Cannabis. I remember clearly had visual hallucination, missing the feeling of my body or in the contrary becoming hypersensitive. I think the whole composition of the plants is at play here. I smoked carts only during a few months and I could clearly feel the difference in the terpenes profile. I don't talk about the marketing bullshit but really some subjective difference in the effects. For me, Cannabis is just one more example of how a lot of stuff are still poorly understood.

3-MeO-PCP is profoundly energizing (I wouldn't say stimulating like amphetamine, but more mania-inducing if that makes sense), pro-social, not very delusion heavy given how much mania it can induce, and it exhibits a similarly effective long-lasting antidepressant effect to ketamine. I often say "Ketamine is like if PCP had some sort of cognitive developmental disorder leading it to be more dull than normal", or something along those lines, just paraphrasing this phrase I turn to often. Ketamine is more of a drug to decompress, look inwards, that sort of deal. Hope my somewhat ambiguous explanation makes sense, if you want a more in depth one I'm definitely willing to write up my personal experiences on the 9 arylcyclohexylamines I've used so far.

Thanks for the description! It's clearly the way I imagine it. The pro-social aspect with the dissociation sounds like a really good candidate for research.

I really like the way you describe ketamine. After a few years without playing with it, I forgot how it acts. I could compare the decompression effect as the one you could get from drinking a beer after sport. It envelop you in a cocoon and guides you on a cloud. Really a nice feeling, without the debilitating aspect of alcohol (at low doses), a short duration. I wish it wasn't that bad for the bladder so I could use it more in social settings.

Actually yes I'm interested by a writing about the different aryl you tried. Maybe it's not the best place as the topic speaks at first about tolerance building and management.

I've been slowly falling into an etizolam/ruby red grapefruit/MGM-15 haze over the past hour or so, so my capacities to dig around academic literature are collapsing right now, but there's a chance that this is some broscience bullshit floating around too. I'm imploring anyone reading this to check, but I think you may have just changed my mind on this matter dude, as I can't find adequate sourcing for it. Your skepticism here has helped to refine my understandings towards the more concrete and provable, genuinely dude, I appreciate it a ton.

Haha you are a demon for combo!
Thank you for your honest answer! As I told, I didn't have any clue about it but I keep hearing this about perma-tolerance but no one never name a paper or whatever. But on the other hand I think the "broscience" can clearly be helpful in here. I just wish that someone will one day do a study about perma-tolerance.

Also I just thought about it, but ketamine is used in the medical field. So maybe the perma-tolerance isn't something irreversible?