• Select Your Topic Then Scroll Down
    Alcohol Bupe Benzos
    Cocaine Heroin Opioids
    RCs Stimulants Misc
    Harm Reduction All Topics Gabapentinoids
    Tired of your habit? Struggling to cope?
    Want to regain control or get sober?
    Visit our Recovery Support Forums

Benzos lorazepam (Ativan) seems much 'harder to handle' than other benzos

Interesting. It shows how our brains react to substances differently. I've been prescribed Ativan for well over a decade now. I generally take 1mg twice a week. I only go up to 2mg if I have to drive on the highway or over a bridge. For me, it's far more effective for my panic disorder with agoraphobia than xanax. I've had xanax in the past and while it works for my anxiety it wasn't as effective for the agoraphobia component. I also don't like how short acting xanax is. Ativan will cover me for a good 6 hours, xanax for maybe 3 hours.
 
Most of those conversion charts are dose per 24 hours.

The original was taken from the Ashton Manual.

I noted that Dr. Heather Ashton had failed to mention that clobazam is not cross-tolerant with other benzodiazepines so I wrote a very polite, very tentitive E-mail with many references. The response was terse to the point of 'damn you for making me do more work after complaining that she had retired.

To her credit, she cleardly DID either modify it herself of pass it on to whomever was responsible for maintaining the manual.

Clobazam was simply omitted.
 
^ I had heard she was not the most pleasant to communicate with. Especially regarding any updates on her work. That sucks she is like that.

Lorazepam has a longer halflife than alprazolam so shouldn't that skew things towards lorazepams potency? Or am I being dyslexic again....

Omitted is kinda better than nothing but that is a crappy attitude to have. a real "I wrote the book on this dont you tell me" type --- yea yea but you still a fallible human and the inability to accept new information is not a great look.
 
Interesting. It shows how our brains react to substances differently. I've been prescribed Ativan for well over a decade now. I generally take 1mg twice a week. I only go up to 2mg if I have to drive on the highway or over a bridge. For me, it's far more effective for my panic disorder with agoraphobia than xanax. I've had xanax in the past and while it works for my anxiety it wasn't as effective for the agoraphobia component. I also don't like how short acting xanax is. Ativan will cover me for a good 6 hours, xanax for maybe 3 hours.
I have Clonazepam prescribed for the same reasons and I much prefer it over Xanax. Ativan is nice but it knocks me out with any dose above 2mg.
 
@notsmokeymcpot42088 - As I stated, all of those conversion charts I've seen are based on equipotency over 24 hours. Even then, it's generally only when a patient has been given one benzodiazepine for a while so that a steady plasma level has been reached. Even if a drug has a half-life of 12 hours, it will still slowly accumulate for weeks if taken daily.

Obviously ROA makes a huge difference and I'm not entirely convinced that plasma levels are an accurate guide. I think all benzodiazepines tend to concentrate in the brain, are then redistributed to all fatty tissue within the body and are sometimes metabolised (some having active metabolites) before final excretion. So the duration of action and plasma half-life can differ a lot.

Don't forget that 1,4-benzodiazepines all potentially bind to four receptor subtypes - a1,a3,a4 and a5 and the subjective effects differ depending on which one(s) they fabour. Nitrobenzodiazepines mostly demonstrate high affinity for the a1 subunit (as do the Z-drugs) so subjectively, most people consider them more potent.

Most people I've met consider 5mg of nitrazepam as potent as 10mg of diazepam. Now long ago I recgonized that ANYTHING that targets the a1 subunit screwed with my judgement so I avoid them even at low doses. But given just how complex their action and how each person's subjective effects will differ, I've always been suspicious of a table being of much value. I mean, if a patient/client has been taking 100mg of temazepam/day for months, yes, obviously I would use the table for a rough guide but RESPONSE would be of more value in that situation.

It can take a LONG time for a client to detoxify from a benzodiazepine and then all benzodiazepines seem to produce a 'kindling' effect i.e. even after years, brain-chemistry remains altered so in some people dependence returns pretty fast. Or, possibly, tolernce never truly disappears so the person who restarts using benzodiazepines goes back to the higher doses they used to get the sought subjective effects.

Whatever the case - a person who has been dependant on a bendoziazepine (even when legitimately prescribed) is at a higher risk of becomeing dependent again.

To be fair, they are a lot safer than the drugs they replace but equally, we are now discovering that after about 8 weeks, some people might never be able to safely detoxify and as I've said, benzos are MOST dangerous when a dependent user suddently has no access to them. That's when fatal seizures DO occur.

I think that's one aspect of the 'mystery powder game' most users don't consider.
 
^Good info as always. Sorry incorrect inference about the half life being what you were factoring off of!

That a1 pans out to a degree I do lean towards clonazepam -- I kind of hate z-drugs though to be honest so that is a curiosity. (over two decades ago) I had to go through a z-drug to get to a benzo; temazepam which interestingly was a 90mg per day script.

Now where do triazo benzos fall in this; also mainly a1 binding? because I also find those quite enjoyable. -- see who says all benzos are the same and just knock ya out lol

I am not suggesting anyone become dependent on benzos ever by any means certainly.

I stand by them being pretty safe in the scope of the drug world -- SUPER LOW BAR; lets be honest. Personally I think people should have access to benzos before alcohol but idealism gets us nowhere.

Definitely dont buy mystery powder lol --- Make sure you get what you buy before ya pay! (Easier said than done)

I do agree with the conversion chart on this one; but this thread would very much speak to all of the points you made about it being a bit more nuanced than plasma levels

If I could get double the amnt of clonazepam in lorazepam I would seriously think about it and probably give it a test run.
(Cuz that is how doctors operate in my mind, " Which benzo would you like?...Now remember we can always switch back. Doesn't sound unreasonable when I type it actually)

I have Clonazepam prescribed for the same reasons and I much prefer it over Xanax. Ativan is nice but it knocks me out with any dose above 2mg.

I tend to prefer clonazepam to xanax but ativan doesnt seem to touch me for w/e reason. I haven't gave it a fair chance in many years though to be honest!
 
Have any new short-to-mid term benzos 7-9 hrs appeared on the scene within last two years?
 
'on the scene' in the last 2 years. I do not know. I do know that any benzo not sched 4 in the US is now legal to possess. (Except the listed exceptions of course... and a couple states)
 
I guess the way the various water-soluble prodrugs work could equally be applied to a wide range of benzodiazepines. Well, 1,4-benzodiazepines at least since that imine bond only exists at physiological pH and then is only a fraction of the compound in the body.
 
Have any new short-to-mid term benzos 7-9 hrs appeared on the scene within last two years?

There are literally THOUSANDS.

Now some couldn't technically be controlled as benzodiazepines. Things such as brotizolam are not technically benzodiazepines but just in case thiophene rings are also explicitly covered, zapizolam, zolazepam and so forth show that many 5 and 6-membered hetrocyclic rings work. I would be surprised if the furan analogue of brotizolam wasn't active, for example.

Heck, clazopam may suggest that rigid analogues are also active. With the latter, to be more certain I would go for adding a triazolo ring or similar because we pretty much know that etodimate (sold as 'Space Oil' for vapes in Hong Kong) is also part of the scaffold of some of the most potent benzodiazepines. Those developed in the 90s and 00s by Professor James T. Cook (et al) at the Milwaukee Institute of Drug Discovery. Clearly that extra bit of scaffold increases affinity (although they DID find a far less labile bioisostere than the ester found in etodimate) and derivatives with a para halide e.g. a -Cl in the same spot as the -Cl in diazepam are sold as research ligands so I think there is quite a large overlap.

I've mentioned it before but I am surprised that since 7OHM appears legal in some states on the basis that it's 'natural' (even though we know it's made from mitragynine, an item of international commerse), surely someone could synthesize kavain and similarly claim it's just Kava extract?

I don't know very much about US law but I do know that people were harmed by 'farmed' kava in which the entire plant was used whereas traditionally only certain parts are harvested and you guessed it, the parts of the plant typically discarded contained hepatotoxins (chalcones). So I don't know if Kava is already legally controlled.

I know researchers are currently looking at various actives within kava but all are making it abundently clear that they extract and seperate the various lactones which does suggest that the regulations surrounding a natural product are easier to work within that if a synthetic was used.

But whatever the detail, sooner or later someone will offer something chemically unrelated to the benzodiazepines.

The French typically use etifoxine but I was gifted a full set of 'Annual Report of Medicinal Chemistry' and several other classes looked promising BUT because chlorodiazepoxide was a few years ahead of the alternatives and Leo Sternbach had worked out the QSAR of scores if not hundreds of analogues, any competitor would have to have shown a significant clinical advantage and because benzodiazepines were so incredibly non-toxic compared with the medications they replaced, I strongly suspect nobody felt a clinicial advantage COULD be shown. Don't forget, by the mid 60s benzodiazepines were heralded as 'miracle drugs' offering so many advantages with seemingly no risks.

But as I have said before, if a person becomes physically dependent on a benzodiazepines, abrupt cessation can and does kill.
 
Ya, Diazepam (Valium) was basically an improved version of Librium

Which were both synthasized by same chemist….including others such as Clonazepam (Klonopin) and an analog of Valium, being Diclazepam (2-Chloro Diazepam) never brought to market but an amazing long acting benzodiazepine with 3 active metabolites lasting slightly longer than Diazepam with 200-250h +
thats temazepam i think, since its the best possible match u can buy from pharmacy because these are the main benzos roche is manufacturing for mainstream phramacy line:

Clonazepam
diazepam
bromazepam
lorazepam
alprazolam
temazepam
midazolam
 
thats temazepam i think, since its the best possible match u can buy from pharmacy because these are the main benzos roche is manufacturing for mainstream phramacy line:

Clonazepam
diazepam
bromazepam
lorazepam
alprazolam
temazepam
midazolam
it ends with lam or pam everytime
 
@Halif2 just skimmed through this thread and haven't seen any mention of this, sorry if I've missed it.

Blood pressure might be a factor here, either because you have natural variations in low blood pressure and/or your hydration level, either way some days your BP is lower than others, then add in Lorazepam which can further lower your blood pressure and......it hits harder and causes blackouts...



maybe that and YMMV + you're sensitive to Lorazepam.
 
One time I saw Ry Cooder in concert and he kept talking about how he didn’t have any Ativan and couldn’t sleep in a way that seemed like he was hoping somebody from the crowd would help him out. Kind of bummed me out tbh.
 
Ok
One time I saw Ry Cooder in concert and he kept talking about how he didn’t have any Ativan and couldn’t sleep in a way that seemed like he was hoping somebody from the crowd would help him out. Kind of bummed me out tbh.
Rusko did that in NYC at a show too back in like 2012 before he cleaned up and he was asking the crowd if anyone had any OxyContin in his thick British accent…smh
 
The virtue of lorazepam is that it has no active metabolites and is excreted as it's gluconate (non-specific blood enzymes perform this step). So in patients who are seriously ill, it puts the least strain on the body.

In the UK we had the 'temazepam epidemic' and when I moved to The Netherlands, I noted that they had a similar issue with lorazepam.

-Short acting
-Fast onset
-Water soluble

In both cases dependent users have to have a certain amount of the drug in their bodies to function (in a similar manner to dependent alcohol users) but could go from fine to severe AWS in a couple of hours. Solubility means parentheral administration is an extra problem as onset is much faster and bioavailability is higher. So they both fed the needle.

The Ashton Manual is the original tool for doctors in the treatment of dependent users. It isn't perfect but is certainly of use.



A few years ago Michael (Linnell) produced the above video and a really great booket on the subject.

Oddly, diclazepam was originally studied for use in substitution therapy. It certainly has the longest duration of action of any benzodiazepine I know of because it has several active metabolites. The idea was that like methadone, diclazepam could be subject to supervised consumption. Sadly, it was not considered to have enough clinical advantages for what is quite a niche indication.
 
how do i tell my dr that #60 10 mg diazepam is equivalent to about #30 1mg klonopin

how busy is BL these days where is the real oldschool crew
 
how do i tell my dr that #60 10 mg diazepam is equivalent to about #30 1mg klonopin

how busy is BL these days where is the real oldschool crew
We can't help you score but I can say that your conversion is probably off. 20mg diazepam is probably more potent than 1mg clonazepam.
 
Top