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What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

Big shout to the moderators for being level-headed and cool about letting us really dig into the details and discuss things in depth here. A big fuck you to power-tripping Reddit mods with small dick syndrome and entirely too much power for their little egos to wield. I'm grateful to this community and for the wisdom of the admins here. I can be hell on wheels in arguments and disagreements, but the system has always been fair and the overall objective of harm reduction helps guide the general ethical vibe here on Bluelight. And hence the popularity of this thread. Moderation corruption is a serious problem on Reddit, so kudos and thanks to the cooler heads who have prevailed on this forum at least.
 
Wow bro that was a well thought out response did you take some verbosamine before you wrote that? I kid I kid. lol.

I am going to preface all of this by stating I have been a frequent flier on this thread from it's beginning and this zombie thread just won't die will it? I truly understand your probably being well over it. FWIW I could play devils advocate for every assertion I have made on every post on the thread. It really is a mindfunk. OK I don't know if I am getting these quotes correct but we will see. lol

I doubt you're traveling the globe taking samples of MDMA and putting them to advanced analytics.

Well I can't talk about sources but suffice to say I have been a pretty crafty consumer over the years. A busy bee in the bee hive you might say. *wink I have tasted from all over Europe, Asia and North America. I don't have a GCMS of course but I know my way around a test kit. I will hold my ground on the point of nothing was ever like what we had in Dallas in the 80s and 90s and with regards to that I am probably a bit more spoiled than many. Plug "Texas Group" into AI if you want a cool read. We owe it all to them. The Netherlands couldn't hold of TGs jock strap.

How would it be possible for the drugs to be different?

As I said I am not a chemist but I have taken Organic I & II so I am not a dummy either. That really is the pickle and the reason this thread continues it's zombie march through Bluelight. I have been privy to some insider information though. My screen name on here will lead you to how I was able to access a particular database. In that database was the story of a couple guys that splintered from TG and were responsible for the "speckled wafers" "disco biscuits" "HBombs" (the H is for Houston not heroine). I read their entire case file and there was great detail on their particular cooking methods and some I recognized and some I didn't. But suffice to say that as the precursors even back then became increasingly harder to get they modified their cook and location several times eventually winding up in Brazil before one of their girlfriends got scooped up landing in Houston and brought the whole operation down. But I do remember them making reference to "Hydroxy MDMA" which they referred to as "Heaven". So it is possible that some of those "speckled wafers" were analogs. Shulgin didn't have great things to say about that particular analog but nevertheless it was in that case file and I know they were one of the biggest if not the biggest distributer at that moment in time. (I know that is a tall tale but unfortunately you will have to take my word for it unless you gain access to that federal database which can only be had from the inside. I also had the privilege of reading the case file of guys who cooked all the LSD in the missile silo but I digress ....).

So then if you know the real shit is out there… why are you… sigh… Forgive me, I've been on this thread arguing this shit for years now. Can you see how this statement contradicts what you just said?

I get it bro and I know I contradicted myself but that being said the best I can get today still wouldn't hold a candle to what the TG was cranking out in the 90s. Maybe I could get in that time machine and grab some and bring them back. lol. I will say a couple things though. Nothing today has that smell that those old wafers had. They reeked of it. For a long time I wouldn't touch anything unless it smelled like that. Kind of a vanilla/root beer type odor which I assume was unconverted precursor. That is what leads me to believe that newer synths are much more precise. It is exceedingly rare that I even catch a hint of that smell these days. Oh and to this day I have never gotten the "glasses hallucination" since. Do you know about that one? lol. Isn't that a weird anomaly?

I've never been a big fan of methylone, but to each their methyl own (ya see what I did there? lol)

Nice one. I will only comment that methylone was the last time I smelled that old familiar smell. It is also the reason why I got hit with "Section 813". I have the distinct honor (sarcasm) of being the very first one to go down for it. I loved it but I understand why purists turn their nose up to it. I sure wish it was still around though. *shrug

Please realize that safrole is in fact a precursor to PMK.

Yep. I know and it doesn't make sense to me either. I know you have to go through MDP2P regardless but I still hold the belief that there is a there somewhere in there. Something on a quantum level perhaps? Who the hell knows? See assertion #1. I have busted my brain on this subject more than I ever cared to.

Texas' involvement with MDMA has always been a peculiar thing to me considering how conservative and anti-drug TX is. But until the late 80s, MDMA was legal to purchase in TX from any bar who happened to sell it from what I've heard.

Texas is very diverse. Dallas and Austin are very liberal and always have been. But to address that point it wasn't any bar it was THE bar that started all of this. The legendary "Starck Club" owned and started by the famous French designer Phillipe Starck. You could buy MDMA from the bar tenders for $5 a pouch (dosage unknown). It was frequented by celebrities and future politicians. Ol GWB was a frequent patron. We owe it all to those pioneers. Unfortunately I was only 16 when it finally shut down in 1989 after being raided by Dallas police. Legend has it it took hours to sweep all the drugs off the floor the next day. That was followed up by Club One which was also a huge contributor to what turned into "warehouse parties" which turned into "raves". If you want to get the real scoop plug "Starck" "Texas Group" "Club One" and "speckled wafers" into AI. That is a real memory lane and where the entire scene was born.

Hey but thanks for the trip down memory lane. I wish there were an easy answer to this question, but as I've said before, it's most likely a combination of things giving the illusion of being a single solitary phenomenon.

In the end I agree with this. It is likely not one thing but a huge combination of things that likely even varies from person to person. Folks with much more chemistry knowledge than me have debated on this thread for what 5 years or more? I truly hoped when I first read it and commented that we would find an answer. Surely with all the combined knowledge we would right? I guess not. lol
 
Yeah idk then without trying the actual substance in question. If you're ever in New York City with enough time to roll, hit me up and I will meet you, show you a few cool places, and we could perhaps get to the bottom of this mystery for you personally at least, or leave with us both confused, but either way, it would be a fun time I'm pretty sure 🤣
Haven t taken a emphatogen in a decade at least. So i d be a fruit-salade [hammered] in no time.

Watching a program about Night-Animals [Nachtdieren] in the US. Love the way people react on the other side of the pond. Compared with the Dutch version. Safe to say the Netherlands despite the OK MDMA is a cold froggy country [koud kikker landje]. Versus the overwhelming friendliness/ and 24 hour live that seems the norm in America. The dispensaries with Weed prices i can only dream off.

Would love to visit will put in on my to do list next to MDMA 🤙 Might take me a decade ;) or two.
 
If you think I was long-winded before… TL;DR below.
this zombie thread just won't die will it?
Bluelight likes the fact that it's driven a lot of site traffic, so we zombie on 😂 The Talking Undead. Hmm, what if some VooDoo witchdoctor resurrected Jerry Garcia, Phil Lesh, Bob Weir, Pigpen, Keith and Donna Jean, et al. do you think they would form the zombie jam band The Grateful Undead? … too soon?

I truly understand your probably being well over it.
Some people still seem to think there's still a debate to be had, so much so that this has become the debate, even though we've shown about a dozen reasons for why MDMA doesn't change, and we've covered the reasons for why someone might mistakenly think this anyway. But then, you know, there are also a lot of superstitious people out there, so I try to take it in stride.

FWIW I could play devils advocate for every assertion I have made on every post on the thread.
And I could argue that the Earth is flat, but it wouldn't make it so.

A busy bee in the bee hive you might say. *wink
I'm guessing this is a deliberate reference to the-hive.ws? I was active on this site in the late 90s / early 2000s, too, even ADC.

I don't have a GCMS of course but I know my way around a test kit.
You know, it's entirely possible to pick up a used GC-MS for a few thousand dollars online… they take up some space though… Lol, I'm not saying you should purchase a used GC-MS, I just find it interesting. Regarding reagent test kits: they have value in harm reduction, but they are not very useful in lab analytics.

I will hold my ground on the point of nothing was ever like what we had in Dallas in the 80s and 90s.
You think it was exclusive to Texas, or is this a projection of personal, localized experience? I mean no offense in saying this, btw, I just want to expand your thinking on this, because you seem intelligent. Ever wonder if perhaps you've convinced yourself of this point, and continuously making this assertion only reinforces the belief and influences how you experience future sessions with anything called MDMA? Just a thought, and I'm not assuming I know the answer.

Plug "Texas Group" into AI if you want a cool read. We owe it all to them. The Netherlands couldn't hold of TGs jock strap.
Well, I already know about that scene, and have some good friends who grew up in that area and in the Phoenix/Tucson scene. And btw, search engines show "Texas Group" as either being a band called Texas or real estate companies in the state. Maybe they play some hard house while they show houses, lol… I added a few more search terms though, and yes, this what I thought it was. I'm familiar with this story and the importance of this club in Dallas to nonconventional Texans.

I have been privy to some insider information though.
Am I going to see this thread pop up in Kalshi now? (Side note: just won big last night on an NBA parlay, yessssss! Go Knicks)

My screen name on here will lead you to how I was able to access a particular database.
Are you talking about services like Westlaw, Cicerai, Lexis Nexus, Fastcase, etc.? It's paywalled, but far from exclusive. I was also locked up by the federales (for manufacturing MDMA), and had to do a bid followed by supervised release. I also read a ton of federal cases in the law libraries of the various places were I was held, including U.S. v Nicholas Sand and Timothy Scully in the infamous Orange Sunshine / ALD-52 case from the 1970s. And I too read the case files for William Leonard Pickard, Gordon Todd Skinner, and the abandoned missile silo in Kansas, as well as Skinner's later case involving Krystal Cole and her boyfriend, etc. There's an excellent book about this subject btw called Operation White Rabbit. You'd probably really like it.

In that database was the story of a couple guys that splintered from TG and were responsible for the "speckled wafers" "disco biscuits" "HBombs" (the H is for Houston not heroine). I read their entire case file and there was great detail on their particular cooking methods and some I recognized and some I didn't.
Yeah there were always rumors those specks were heroin. People would call them "smacky" and call other pills "speedy". I always reasoned that heroin was too expensive to be put into a pill meant for oral ingestion. And that RoA would be wasteful to boot. No police reports or medical reports detail discovering heroin in MDMA either. There is no "e" in heroin and there is no heroin in E, lol.

But suffice to say that as the precursors even back then became increasingly harder to get they modified their cook and location several times eventually winding up in Brazil before one of their girlfriends got scooped up landing in Houston and brought the whole operation down.
It's mostly been the feds cracking down on imports of sassafras oil, PMK glycidate, and heliotropin. Cambodia burned many acres of safrole-bearing plants and safrole oil a decade and a half ago while under pressure from the DEA to do so. I'm guessing they were in Brazil for some similar access to safrole. Method-wise I'm guessing they moved from a modified Wacker to a route using formic acid (I'll say no more so as to avoid discussing synthesis). My point is: I've considered these types of things carefully, and I'm familiar with this chemistry, even in less-than-ideal circumstances.

But I do remember them making reference to "Hydroxy MDMA" which they referred to as "Heaven". So it is possible that some of those "speckled wafers" were analogs.
There are a lot of things possible. That discoloration indicates something. What's not possible is going back in time and testing that product now. Do you recall what the forensic testing showed? Was it all entirely beta-hydroxy-MDMA? Are you suggesting that you think bk-MDMA is an amazingly euphoric entactogen that MDMA was somehow accidentally given credit for and this is the "answer" to what's supposedly wrong with today's MDMA? That seems far-fetched to me, but from your perspective it's easy to see why you might think this.

Shulgin didn't have great things to say about that particular analog
Yeah but that guy didn't know what he was talking about 😉

but nevertheless it was in that case file and I know they were one of the biggest if not the biggest distributer at that moment in time.
Maybe but it hardly matters now. Sammy the Bull was moving a bunch of pressies in the 90s, as well as some Asian syndicates coming down from Toronto and the Grateful Dead Family chemists' family jewel molecule (read: 'Molly' is short for 'molecule'), and it's all kinda guesswork anyway since no one knows the exact volume that moves untouched and unknown to L.E. and those reporting these figures…

(I know that is a tall tale but unfortunately you will have to take my word for it unless you gain access to that federal database which can only be had from the inside. I also had the privilege of reading the case file of guys who cooked all the LSD in the missile silo but I digress ....).
I believe all of that is public knowledge and anyway it can be accessed with a service like Westlaw. If the story is big enough that journalists delve into it, these details wind up in publication and sometimes are drawn into a Wikipedia article, such as with Nick Sand and Tim Scully's case, as well as the missile silo story which was featured in Rolling Stone's December 2000 issue in an article titled "The King of Acid" (referring to Lenny Pickard here, not Skinner).

I get it bro and I know I contradicted myself but that being said the best I can get today still wouldn't hold a candle to what the TG was cranking out in the 90s.
I sense heavy bias, but I get it. I also have stories stemming from fond memories.

Nothing today has that smell that those old wafers had. They reeked of it. For a long time I wouldn't touch anything unless it smelled like that. Kind of a vanilla/root beer type odor which I assume was unconverted precursor. That is what leads me to believe that newer synths are much more precise.
I think you're confusing at least three things here: synthesis precision, conversion yield, and compound purity. They're interconnected, but not interchangeable. When I think of synthesis precision I think of specific conditions and reagents to manipulate/change a target on a molecule, like reductively aminating a ketone while leaving a methylenedioxy ring undisturbed, or enantiomeric shielding for stereospecific synthesis. In the case of smelling root beer aroma in the end product being called MDMA, this is as you said: unconverted precursor, so MDP-2-P, isosafrole and safrole. MDMA is defined in the Merck manual as an odorless, bitter, bright white crystalline solid.

Let's not jump to conclusions in either direction here. It doesn't take much to discolor a white crystalline solid; a negligible amount will do the trick and not make any difference in the effects felt by a user. And these visual clues can mislead in the other direction, too. An impure matrix of compounds can be coerced into forming crystals that smell of licorice and would easily fool most consumers. Without real analytics we're just shooting in the dark here. I have no doubt you're telling the truth regarding your experiences and the validity of your story. I also completely understand why and how you've come to your conclusions. And I also still completely disagree with the conclusion that anything is wrong with "today's MDMA" in some broad overall sense. You lived in TX and had access to some 🔥 MDMA at one spell in your life. Okay. That doesn't translate to everyone's supply of MDMA was identical in all parts of the world, or even just North America… or just Europe. I'm speculating, but I think people are underestimating how big the ecstasy market is.

It is exceedingly rare that I even catch a hint of that smell these days. Oh and to this day I have never gotten the "glasses hallucination" since. Do you know about that one? lol. Isn't that a weird anomaly?
Yeah there are lots of little weird things like that, and I still experience these things when I roll hard. Like seeing halos around lights, or having depth perception illusions, or intense sparkling details in lights and static image replication. This is especially true on MDA and 5-APB I've found, but MDMA has a special presentation, even if the visual flair is dialed down.

methylone was the last time I smelled that old familiar smell. It is also the reason why I got hit with "Section 813".
For anyone reading along, U.S. Code § 813 states that controlled substance analogues intended for human consumption are treated as Schedule I. This is federal, supersedes state law, is enforced by the DEA and the federal court system, and can lead to incarceration in the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Not the vibes, trust me; I'm sure @Section813 would agree…

I loved it but I understand why purists turn their nose up to it. I sure wish it was still around though. *shrug
I can't speak for others, but I do not turn my nose up to this drug and I do not consider myself some "purist" like that. I also don't consider methylone to be some "form of MDMA" or some "kind of ecstasy" to even be something that would deviate from something I might consider "pure". Methylone is not an impurity just because it's been misrepresented as MDMA. Methylone is its own substance, its own unique compound. I've had many a fine time on it and even had some a couple years ago. It shows up from time to time. But for my serotonin, I'd rather roll on 5-APB these days if I'm going that route instead of serotonergic psychedelics.

Yep. I know and it doesn't make sense to me either. I know you have to go through MDP2P regardless but I still hold the belief that there is a there somewhere in there. Something on a quantum level perhaps? Who the hell knows? See assertion #1. I have busted my brain on this subject more than I ever cared to.
Shit, you? Listen, specifically why a particular experience for a person winds up being a lackluster experience, but then some other time it's a grand slam ++++ experience depends on a lot of factors, and when analyzing past experiences, there's no way to tell or to add up all the details precisely. Transcendent experiences cannot be planned for or called up by request. We can do things to increase the odds they'll happen, but it's nothing we can summon due to the nature of experience and the unpredictability of the world around us.

Texas is very diverse. Dallas and Austin are very liberal and always have been.
That's fine, and I'm aware of, and fond of, both the DFW scene and the SXSW scene, but overall Texas is a notoriously conservative red state known for its heavy-handed law enforcement, passionate defense of gun-owner rights, Draconian criminal statutes, and harsh state prison system. It's known for cowboys, "steers and queers, and you ain't got no horns, boy", handlebar mustaches, closeted gays, honkey tonk bars, border patrol, "we don't take kindly to your type around these parts" attitude, and though they're stereotypes at times, they're accurate sometimes, too. So yeah, it surprises me a little bit that MDMA was this legal thing you could get in TX bars. Then again, despite all of the above, it's not like Texas is some stranger to drugs, what with bordering Mexico…

The legendary "Starck Club". That was followed up by Club One which was also a huge contributor to what turned into "warehouse parties" which turned into "raves".
To be clear, this is only true for the Dallas scene. In Chicago, the nightclub The Warehouse and its resident DJ in the 80s, Frankie Knuckles, gave rise to "Warehouse music" from "Warehouse parties" and this became "House music". Knuckles would blend disco records with his 808 and 909 drum machines to make the kick epic. This music was picked up and played by DJs like Paul Oakenfold in Ibiza in the late 80s, a vacation/holiday hot spot for the British. Summer of Love in the U.K. was 1988 and the rave scene was taking form all over western Europe and North America, shout-out to Italo-Disco here, too. NYC's nightclub scene and warehouse raves became prevalent, and clubs like NASA, The Palladium, The Limelight, The Tunnel, Club USA, Twilo, 1013, etc. formed and defined this nascent movement, plus Crobar in Chicago, Firestone in Orlando with the breaks, Full Moon raves in San Francisco under the Golden Gate Bridge, myriad spots in L.A. and southern California, Detroit's scene and DEMF, the scene in Texas, a few midwest locations with goth raver vibes like Kansas City, Also, DC, Richmond & Norfolk, Baltimore, Philly, Boston, Indianapolis, Phoenix, Sea-Tac & Portland…

If you want to get the real scoop plug "Starck" "Texas Group" "Club One" and "speckled wafers" into AI. That is a real memory lane and where the entire scene was born.
The Dallas scene. Also, seems unnecessary to involve AI in this. A simple Duck Duck Go search with AI turned off renders plenty of info, such as this article. Consider for a minute that you're ~53 yrs old which means you were born probs 1973 and you were very young then. These must've been your first experiences with MDMA, drugs in general, and possibly getting laid and so on and so forth. Formative years and a youthful, impressionable mind as all young minds tend to be. This certainly left a big impression on you, as it would with most people, and this is going to bias your memory more than I think you're aware. Couple that with a few lackluster experiences with some wack shit, and that's all it takes to convince a person it's not them it's the MDMA, particularly when that person is older now and 99 times out of 100 they know exactly WTF they're talking about or else they wouldn't be talking.

This thread is filled with comments from remarkably intelligent people, many of whom feel the same way and know what they're talking about 99/100 times. It's easy to convince oneself of a thing like this. I equally am prone to the same sort of bias. I know this, which is why I'm not certain of these things and am open to the idea I'm wrong and/or that I've convinced myself of a reality that isn't so, while the evidence I'm wrong is right in front of my face, unseen. I've been thinking about this subject and writing on it for years. When I first came to the thread I was intrigued by people's anecdotes, but not unfamiliar with the arguments in general. What I've learned from researching parts of this have only driven me further to the conclusion that nothing's wrong with MDMA today.

In the end I agree with this. It is likely not one thing but a huge combination of things that likely even varies from person to person. Folks with much more chemistry knowledge than me have debated on this thread for what 5 years or more? I truly hoped when I first read it and commented that we would find an answer. Surely with all the combined knowledge we would right? I guess not. lol
TL;DR ☞ I feel like it's been answered, but because that answer isn't the satisfying, ah ha!, single entity culprit answer some of us want, we reject the scientifically sound argument and plausible explanations for various misperceptions. Ultimately it's a case-by-case thing with no singular answer and no search worthy of pursuit.
 
I don't want to bely the point too much. If it was a nothing burger then this thread would have died a long time ago. The concept crossed my mind long before Le Junk ever started the thread.

I would ask one question though. If the drugs are the same, then why isn't the scene still what it was back then? Could people have changed THAT much? I don't think so. *shrug

Yes, I was talking about Lexis-Nexis. I wish I could remember the case name, but it has been almost 15 years.

You really should go and plug those terms into ChatGPT. There is a wealth of knowledge out there on this subject that just can't be had from a single search engine. I will leave one good article about it linked here below that ChatGPT cites several times. It is a great read. There is also a good article in The New Yorker but it unfortunately is password protected so you have to pay to read it.

I do love this forum. So many knowledgeable people and it is awesome to have intelligent discourse. Most folks just want to get fucked up and don't care about the whens whys or hows.

How MDMA Became the Club Drug of the Century

The Rebranding of MDMA
 
I don't want to bely the point too much.
Do you mean "belabor"?

If it was a nothing burger then this thread would have died a long time ago.
This thread did die a long time ago. This is not an active debate as far as I'm concerned. Bunk E is nothing new in my book and has virtually always been around since MDMA hit the blackmarket.

The concept crossed my mind long before Le Junk ever started the thread.
Loss of MDMA magic is nothing new, neither is the concept of old-timers saying, "things were better back in my day, grumble grumble!" Sometimes this is true, but sometimes it's just a symptom of getting older.. If MDMA were some bullshit while methylone was the golden child, don't you think Dr. Shulgin would've noticed this?

@Le Junk started the original thread back in late April of 2016. So it's been a decade this has been going on. I didn't join BL until near the end of the COVID lockdown, so it's been a solid five years for me…

I would ask one question though. If the drugs are the same, then why isn't the scene still what it was back then?
Technology. I'll explain, but first: What makes you think the drugs are the only thing defining the rave scene? Sure, they're important, and yes, people still go to raves to hear repetitious music in dark rooms and take hypnotizing drugs, but think about the marketing behind these commercial rave events these days. Think about how everyone has a smart phone on them and social media out the ass. Kids these days are afraid of dancing, for example, because they don't want to be filmed surreptitiously by their peers and later be ridiculed on social media. I didn't believe this at first, but I still go to shows, concerts, raves, parties, afterparties, etc., and I've talked to the youngsters in today's rave scene. They've unanimously confirmed this for me, the ones I've asked anyway. Don't believe me? Ask them for yourself. And when's the last time you tried MDMA?

Scenes evolve over time and very often are subsumed into the mainstream. Look at hip-hop/rap, look at punk rock, the hippie movement, the beatniks, heavy metal… all of them counterculture in one way or another at some point, all of them swallowed up by pop culture. The rave scene of today being different from the rave scene of yesteryear is a given, and it does not boil down to simply being some supposedly mysterious substance no one can identify in the MDMA.

Like I'm just making this shit up… I've been dropping knowledge on this topic for years and have literally manufactured MDMA decades ago and it's been a life goal to fight to end drug prohibition in the U.S. I realized that this is going to take concerted effort to sway public opinion and get ppl to see that the legal consequences for possessing or using a drug are much worse than the effects of the drugs themselves on a person's life. The fact that the U.S. has 1.9 million people incarcerated and counting should be a red flag that the laws in the country are fucked up, particularly laws regarding victimless drug crimes. U.s. population = 5% of global population, yet it incarcerates 25% of all prisoners on the planet. In the federal system, ~45% of the inmate population is serving time for victimless drug crimes (the govt.'s wording, not mine… do note: I did not have any restitution to pay as there were no victims of my alleged "crime").

The so-called War on Drugs costs the tax payers some $60 billion a year but only puts a tiny negligible dent in the stats for overdoses, overdose deaths and other drug-related incidents. It's not enough to justify the cost or continue the course of action. So we need to repeal these laws, open more clinics, decriminalize mere possession and de-escalate the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines for drug distribution crimes until the weights become substantial. None of this will happen unless the public approves it and begins to see recreational drug-use in a new light. That requires popularizing a movement of harm reduction and responsible use, and that requires spreading knowledge about safe use and not continuing the approach of attempting to scare kids away from drugs with anti-drug propaganda.

[steps down from soap box]

And if you're ever in NYC, from Manhattan to the outer boroughs, LMK and we'll meet for a drink, 1980s Texas-style 😉

Could people have changed THAT much? I don't think so. *shrug
As we get older, yes, our bodies change quite a bit, including the amount of monoamine oxidase we produce. Also our metabolism slows down, and the neural connections we've made throughout our life tend to stick (we're all creatures of habit). The answer is right there. MDMA doesn't change as it cannot change. Humans do.

Yes, I was talking about Lexis-Nexis. I wish I could remember the case name, but it has been almost 15 years.
You thought LexisNexis was an exclusive system you could only access from within the FBOP? … And you're still arguing with me that something is wrong with today's MDMA? How much more obvious does it need to be to people for them to admit they're out of their depth and I just might know what I'm talking about? Where'd you do time? Hmm, I'll bet it was a real snitch fest from the way you described the case, like you probs had codefendants like a motherfucker, everyone splitting everyone else's wigs in court for the §5K1.1 reduction. I'm glad I took my hit by myself and had no co-D's. Shit's anxiety-provoking. No thanks.

You really should go and plug those terms into ChatGPT. There is a wealth of knowledge out there on this subject that just can't be had from a single search engine.
I disagree. Trying not to waste energy here. You know, us Gen X kids really had that eco-friendly stuff drilled into our heads…

There is also a good article in The New Yorker but it unfortunately is password protected so you have to pay to read it.
The DFW scene was important, yes, but it's far from being the only tastemaker back in the day, despite being a generally cool, socially liberal (for Texas) kind of oasis in a deep red state, and despite Stevie Nicks' involvement in Club One. So yeah, it was influential and early on, but let's not go overboard and practically credit it for the invention of electronic music…

Btw, last I checked, ChatGPT, Gemini, Grok, and Claude all were asked to read the forum and deliver an opinion. None of them think there's anything wrong with today's MDMA, but that could be bc it's trying to kill all of us, so, take that one with a grain of silicon.

I'm not saying the ecstasy you had was still good and it's absolutely you and not the drug. I'm also not saying that it's the drug and has nothing to do with you. Either is possible, and both have happened in the past, and will continue to happen in the future. Which of the two occurs depends on various circumstances described in depth, ad nauseum, on this very thread.

Lastly re: your links viz. paywalls… if you put "archive.is/" in the address bar of a web browser just before the "https://", you can often find an archived version of that article and get around the paywall.

I do love this forum. So many knowledgeable people and it is awesome to have intelligent discourse. Most folks just want to get fucked up and don't care about the whens whys or hows.
Yeah probably.

Yes, again, I'm not a stranger to the story of MDMA. I know all about the rebranding of the drug and the unfortunate decision to nickname it "ecstasy" which gave it a salacious name and made it easier to outlaw / turned public opinion against it. Giving all credit for the rave scene to Texas is far-fetched. Sure, the fact that MDMA could be legally procured there for a while back when you were a teenager definitely had some impact on the early American rave scene, but there were influencers all over. Before the Texas scene, there was disco. Disco was merged with the 909 and the 808 at a Chicago nightclub in the early to mid 1980s, which resulted in House music. This was popularized in the U.K. along with the practice of taking MDMA. Sure, DFW / Deep Ellum was doing its thing at roughly the same time, but so was NYC and so was SF and Chicago. You've got the Beastie Boy's Paul's Boutique in 1988 going, "Ladies wanna get next to me / I had a beautiful experience on ecstasy."

The rave scene sprung up in several different locations at roughly the same time. There were cross influences of course, but I would wager the driving force behind it was only in part due to MDMA. Acid was another big factor substance-wise, but then there's technology – both in terms of music production tech and the ability to spread info quickly with computer generated graphics, pagers, cell phones, and later via the Internet once that became a widespread thing circa 1995.

Hey did you ever get a chance to try Euphoria, aka: 4-MAR, 4-MAX (4-methylaminorex)? It was more prevalent in Florida, so I doubt it, but I just thought I'd ask anyway.

And seriously, pls don't take any of this to heart or take this as though I'm dismissing the rave scene in Austin and/or Dallas. I know the venue you're talking about was an important one to the overall scene, and especially the Texas scene, and they get credit for being early pioneers, but I don't want to snub the influence of the gay black house music scene of Chicago, Italo House, Kraftwerk, Brian Eno, the Eurythmics, etc.

Oh shit, I just remembered why this is all so familiar to me: Disco Donnie. You know that guy?
 
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But I do remember them making reference to "Hydroxy MDMA" which they referred to as "Heaven".
Dude wrote a book. I began reading it on 2C-C and had to stop as it was soon evident that he had no idea of chemistry. Gave me a stomachache. Fucking clown. Of course it's been a while between his chemistry work and writing the book but from the errors he made in spelling compound's names it was evident he could never have been a competent chemist. Cooked recipes at most.


(Not goodreads, rather badreads in this case.)

I also like this review:

Always do the right thing huh? Like the time you knowingly made drugs on our property in Taos and ruined our septic system. Fled and also never offered to help us with our losses. I am the daughter of Property owner and it was on our property in Taos, land that I will now inherit where you knowingly produced drugs and completely ruined our septic system in Taos. You should feel ashamed that you claim to do the right thing and we will forever have to live with the consequences of your actions, actions which you have never ever offered to mend or even apologized for.
 
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to add

i am super grateful that i ran across my source
dude tests everything first run for fent
second run if it contains what it is supposed to
cant remember the third maybe trying it they cool known em for years just didnt know that aspect. nice suprise.
reagent and other tests from dancesafe so....

they even test they weed which i love tbph

grateful

not an advert for anyone or anything just HR imo
peace
 
Big shout to the moderators for being level-headed and cool about letting us really dig into the details and discuss things in depth here. A big fuck you to power-tripping Reddit mods with small dick syndrome and entirely too much power for their little egos to wield. I'm grateful to this community and for the wisdom of the admins here. I can be hell on wheels in arguments and disagreements, but the system has always been fair and the overall objective of harm reduction helps guide the general ethical vibe here on Bluelight. And hence the popularity of this thread. Moderation corruption is a serious problem on Reddit, so kudos and thanks to the cooler heads who have prevailed on this forum at least.
I just kind of let people talk it out here but there is a shocking amount of sourcing and too-close-to-chemistry talk that happens in this exact thread. This one keeps me on my toes, but I do believe that Bluelight exists as a less censored version of the norm. It's a valuable place to be in, seeing people less masked than usual.
 
I quit like 15 years ago, really in 2004 when I got a lil meth in an orange superman. but I did Molly twice in 2010. once was amaze, like 1999-2002 but the next g was bunk.

but yea seeing glasses on ppl and digital clocks dancing was a 2000 thing. what a time to be alive. never had blanks but white mitsubihsii's (green too). pink smilies. I liked the gray fish as my last real good pill that blew me the fuck up. on yea it was rectal and my gf had to cover for me for like 30min bc I wouldnt stop typing on an imaginary typewriter.
 
girLz do x

c4f27584b1ae9d37879ab0551ed51a1f.jpg
 
I'm not knocking you

Just saying what I know

That you for the positive and Negative feedback from myself and @unodelacosa

At the same time

Get your @$¢ hole ripped either

Here,the hive, vesp or hyper

XD

No offence

We are at the level of

Noone KNOWS UNTIL THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED THIS SHIT

AND I WANNA SAY BS BUT READ MY LAST 2-5 COMMENTS

XD

No Joke I WANNA ADMIT IM WRONG

AT THE SAME TIME

MAPS HAS NOT TESTED RAPID/FAST/,SLOW MELT RECRYSTALLIZATION

MDMA/METH DOES NOT FORM GIANT ROCKS/ CRYSTALS

AN OG LIKE MYSELF KNOWS WHAT

"GLUE BLOCK" MDMA IS from "OLD DUTCH MDMA FORUMS"

AND KNOWS WHAT A POLYMORPHISM IS

AND GAVE HYDROMORPHS MDMA THAT LOOKED AS PURE AS METH. SHARDS THAT COMPETE WITH WITH SEE THRU

BUT SMALLER LETS SAY ,3-7mm

There WILL ALWAYS BEE MOSQUITOS

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THE WASPS/ THEEHIVE


BUT A VERY VERY FEW OF US WILL CALL OR BE NAMED A STRIKE

AKA HOBART HUSON

On Oct. 18, 2001, federal agents raided an office in an industrial park in Escondido, Calif. Inside, they found one of the largest ecstasy laboratories ever seized in U.S. history and a copy of “Total Synthesis II,” a book explaining how to manufacture the drug.

That same day, Hobart Huson, author of “Total Synthesis II,” was arrested in San Antonio and charged with conspiracy to manufacture and distribute ecstasy.

The book, which Huson wrote under the pen name “Strike,” provides specific instructions on how to create an ecstasy lab. Huson wrote the book while serving a six-month sentence for attempting to manufacture the drug. After he was released, he formed Scientific Alliance, a company that distributes otherwise legal chemicals that could be used to produce ecstasy.

Wanna be THE FIRST PERSON TO OFFER A 10K BOUNTY ON AN NMR FOR XANAX

@unodelacosa and I might SAY FUCK AROUND AND FIND OUT

AT THE SAME TIME.


HERE YE HERE YE

YOU KNOW THE RULES AND SO DO I ...the BAR IS RAISED AND VERY VERY few people here have reached it. Personally

I HOPE SMALLER ROCKS ARE THE FIRE.

AND VERY FEW UNDERSTAND

Researchers and clinicians describe three distinct phases of this therapy: preparation, the MDMA experience, and integration. The non-psychedelic components, which involve talk therapy, are essential for both effectiveness and safety. A therapeutic alliance and trust are developed during the preparation stage, alongside an exploration of the participant’s struggles. Preparatory sessions also help familiarize patients with MDMA therapy and allow time to address questions and concerns.

The setting for MDMA therapy, even within clinics or research institutes, tends to be a living room-like environment. These spaces are quiet, decorated with pleasing artwork and/or flowers, and provide an aesthetically pleasing ambiance. This is to encourage a positive experience.

During the dosing session, the participant will sit or lie on a couch, wear an eye mask, and, at times, listen to a carefully selected playlist of music. The participant ingests a full dose (75–125 mg) to start and an optional second dose (half the quantity of the first) about two hours into the session. The session, which lasts 6–8 hours, is non-directed by the therapy team. This means that the client follows wherever the experience leads them—they are invited to access their inner healing intelligence. The therapists provide an empathetic presence and rapport, offering gentle help and emotional support if needed.

I litterly WORKED WITH MAPS, AND UNDER NOT ALL MDMA AND LSD IS EQUAL

FUCK AROUND

BUT I CAN AS KID ROCK WOULD SAY



I CAN SEE THE MAPS VOLUNTEER COORDINATOR FROM. A MILE AWAY

EITHER IN A BAR IN SAN FRAN

OR SANTA CRUZ CA

Either way

EHO HERE HAS FUCKED AROUND AND FOUND OUT

2-Nitropropane (2-NP) and nitroethane are both aliphatic nitrocompounds used in industry, but they differ significantly in their chemical structure, reactivity, and toxicity. 2-NP is a secondary nitroalkane, while nitroethane is a primary nitroalkane.

Key Differences and Comparisons:
Structure & Reactivity: Nitroethane (
) is a primary nitroalkane, whereas 2-nitropropane

) is a secondary nitroalkane. Primary nitroalkanes are generally more thermally stable than secondary nitroalkanes.

Ritonavir: how the discovery of a new polymorph changed drug development forever
October 11, 2024


Pharma Focus Europe
@pharma_eu
The ritonavir crisis changed drug development forever! A new polymorph’s discovery led to its withdrawal, emphasizing the need for thorough polymorph screening.


Ritonavir: How the Discovery of a New Polymorph Changed Drug Development Forever
Victor M. Diaz Perez, Operations Director, Solid Technologies S.L.
The ritonavir crisis, triggered by the unexpected discovery of a new, less soluble polymorph, reshaped the pharmaceutical industry's approach to solid state characterization. This article explores how the crisis led to the withdrawal and reformulation of ritonavir, emphasizing the critical need for thorough polymorph screening to prevent similar disruptions in drug development.

Ritonavir is an antiretroviral drug discovered by Abbott Laboratories to treat acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS). It was approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in 1996, and was marketed in semi-solid capsule form under the brand name Norvir.

Ritonavir works by inhibiting the growth of the causative organism of AIDS called human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and preventing damage to the immune system. The discovery of ritonavir, together with another contemporaneous protease inhibitor, saquinavir, contributed to drop the AIDS-related death rate in the US remarkably.

In the beginning, ritonavir was thought to exist as only one crystal form. However, almost two years after reaching market authorization, multiple drug lots started failing the dissolution test. Further investigation showed the existence of a more stable, crystalline form, which created a challenge for a drug that was already on the market.

This article discusses the impact of the discovery of the new crystalline form of ritonavir after the drug had been commercialized, and how it changed the perception of polymorphism in the pharmaceutical industry forever.

Emergence of AIDS

AIDS is a chronic illness that gained global attention in the 1980s. It weakens the immune system of the body, making it hard to fight infections. When HIV enters the body, it targets CD4 T-cells, a type of white blood cell that helps defend against diseases. It uses the machinery of T-cells to make new copies of the virus, due to which the immune cells are destroyed. As the virus spreads and the number of healthy T-cells falls below 200 cells/mm3, it leads to the more advanced stage of HIV infection called AIDS. People who develop AIDS are vulnerable to opportunistic infections (infections from a weakened immune system) and certain types of cancer.

The exact origin of HIV is unknown. However, researchers believe it originally came from a virus found in chimpanzees in central Africa. The virus, called simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV), is believed to be transmitted to humans through direct contact with chimpanzee blood while hunting. Later, the SIV would mutate to HIV within the human host.

Although HIV/AIDS surfaced as far back as the 1930s, the devastating impact of this virus gripped the world in the 1980s. In the early 1980s, medical experts began to report an alarming rise in cases causing widespread concern. In mid-1981, the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published its initial reports describing rare types of pneumonia and cancer affecting young, previously healthy homosexual men in the US. The disease was associated with immune suppression, causing the deaths of hundreds of people within a year of diagnosis. Primarily, the cases of AIDS were reported in the gay community. However, the ongoing investigation concluded that AIDS was not specific to sexual orientation. Rather, it spread through blood transfusions, sexual contact, and breast milk.

The limited knowledge about the virus and the lack of effective treatment options exacerbated the crisis. In 1983, researchers were able to identify the virus responsible for causing deaths, marking a critical turning point in the fight against the epidemic. With this groundbreaking discovery, researchers were able to develop diagnostic tests and pave the way for the development of antiretroviral therapies.

The growing public health crisis required an urgent approach, which led to the use of experimental treatment in its early stages. One of the first drugs used against HIV infection was a Nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitor (NRTI), zidovudine (also called Retrovir, azidothymidine, or AZT). This drug was previously developed to treat cancer, but it failed in doing so. Marketed in 1987, zidovudine showed some promise against HIV and was effective in decreasing death rates and opportunistic infections. A year after its use, the experts found that AZT didn't work well on its own and had toxic side effects at higher doses.

When AZT therapy didn't prove to be as promising as the scientists hoped, they developed additional NRTIs, including didanosine, zalcitabine, stavudine, and lamivudine. These drugs gained FDA approvals in the early 1990s, expanding treatment options. Unfortunately, patients quickly developed resistance to NRTIs, rendering the treatment ineffective.

After the short-lived benefits of NRTIs, there was a critical urgency to find new treatment options as the death toll was rising. At that time, the number of AIDS-related deaths exceeded 700,000 globally. Experts were continuously working to develop a drug that could transform this fatal disease into a manageable chronic condition. With the ongoing clinical trials, scientists soon discovered a new class of HIV drugs called protease inhibitors, which suppressed the replication of the virus. In 1995, the FDA approved saquinavir as the first protease inhibitor (PI). A few months later, ritonavir, another drug of this class, was developed by Abbott Laboratories.

HIV / AIDS

Figure 1. Deaths caused by AIDS by year and age group.

In March 1996, ritonavir was approved for the treatment of HIV/AIDS. This powerful antiviral drug works by binding to the active site of HIV protease, which is essential for the replication of the virus. Once the active site is inhibited by the drug, the virus cannot mature and produce functional proteins. As a result, the amount of HIV virus is reduced in the body, leading to slow progression of the disease. Studies have found that ritonavir also inhibits cytochrome P450-34A enzyme in the liver and intestine, which is involved in the metabolism of protease inhibitors.

Ritonavir was one of the first protease inhibitors that became a part of Highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART), involving the use of combination drugs to treat HIV. Within two years of HAART, the AIDS diagnosis was dropped by 45%, whereas the death rate declined by 63% in the US.

Withdrawal from the market

Abbott Laboratories marketed Ritonavir (Norvir) in 1996, as a semisolid capsule formulation. But then, the nightmare began. In 1998, researchers found that several batches of ritonavir were failing the quality control tests. The drug substance was not dissolving properly, and a solid was precipitating out of the semisolid capsules. The commercial lots were depleting rapidly, and the drug was severely diminishing its efficacy.

To understand the issue, the content of capsules was examined using microscopy and X-ray powder diffraction. The investigation revealed the existence of a new crystalline form (polymorph) denoted form II. This newly discovered form was more stable and much less soluble than the existing form I.

During the drug development stage, ritonavir was known to exist in only one crystalline form, form I, which was not easily absorbed by the body in a solid state due to which it was formulated in semi-solid capsule form. However, after the appearance of form II, the oral bioavailability of the drug was compromised in the semisolid formulation. The semisolid formulation of Norvir consisted of a hydro-alcoholic solution of ritonavir which was not saturated with respect to form I, but was much supersaturated with respect to form II.

Soon after the appearance of form II, Abbott sent a team of scientists to their manufacturing facility in Italy. The goal was to investigate if any changes had occurred during the manufacturing process that led to the development of the form II. At that time, form II did not appear in the drug in detectable quantities. However, shortly after the visit, the new polymorph began appearing in manufacturing lots and in lab formulations. The exact reason for the emergence of form II remains debatable but this dominance caused the failure to formulate semisolid capsules.

Norvir was also marketed in an oral liquid dosage form which was recommended to be stored at a temperature range of 2-8°C to maintain its stability. However, after the appearance of form II, the oral solution was prone to crystallization at this temperature.

Due to the stability crisis, Abbott withdrew the drug from the market, leading to disruption in the treatment of AIDS. In October 1998, Abbott Laboratories held a press, explaining why they could no longer supply ritonavir capsules. It is reported that the appearance of a late polymorph form caused Abbott laboratories to lose more than 250 million US dollars.

Characterization of form I and form II

The crystalline forms were analyzed using solid-state spectroscopy and microscopy techniques such as solid-state nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), Nuclear infrared (NIR) spectroscopy, powder X-rat diffraction and single crystal X-ray. These techniques confirmed that ritonavir existed in two forms and both forms had significant differences.

The solubility of ritonavir’s polymorphs in ethanol:water solvent mixtures, which was the system used for the original formulation, showed that form II had lower solubility throughout the whole range of mixtures.

The determination of the structure of both forms by single crystal X-ray showed that the two forms had differences in three specific torsion angles, which affected the shape and stability of each form. Form II exhibits an unusual torsion angle, adopting “cis” conformation for its carbamate group. This conformation should make the crystal less stable and more soluble because it requires energy to adopt and grow as a crystal. Despite this, form II crystals were far more stable because of the presence of strong hydrogen bonds.

Hydrogen bonds

Figure 2. Hydrogen-bond motifs of ritonavir’s form I and form II.

Both polymorphs of ritonavir exhibit hydrogen bonds, but these differ in their bonding patterns. The difference in the bonding network influences its crystallization and dissolution. Form I has a large surface area of exposed hydrogen bond donors and acceptors, which is why it can easily interact with the solvent (like water and alcohol) to dissolve quickly. In contrast, form II shows a uniform hydrogen bonding pattern where all the hydrogen bond donors and acceptors are satisfied internally. As a result, the stability of form II is increased. Here, the ritonavir solution follows Ostwald’s rule, which states that, in a supersaturated solution, the first crystals to form are usually the ones having the lowest energy barrier. So, even though form II is more stable, form I is likely to form first.

Once ritonavir is dissolved, both crystalline forms become identical, so either polymorph of ritonavir can be used in the production of Norvir soft gelatin capsules, as long as a new formulation is developed to maintain the drug fully dissolved.

However, ritonavir form II has certain drawbacks due to which it is not the most desirable form for manufacturing. Extensive studies on form II determined that lots prepared with the new polymorph had failure rates of up to 50%. The reason for this failure lies in the fact that it easily co-crystallizes with impurities, making it difficult to purify it during the crystallization process. It also requires extended drying time to get rid of residual solvents, affecting the quality of the final product. Finally, it dissolves much slower than form I, which compromises the bioavailability of the product.

Since the new polymorphic form was not the form of choice for manufacturing, the next goal was to identify how the desired polymorph (form I) could be obtained from form II.

First, it was key to understanding if the supersaturated solution of form II kept its crystal memory. Using sonication (a technique that applies sound energy to agitate particles in a liquid), the scientists created a super-saturated solution of ritonavir form II which was kept in a closed system to prevent any contamination. After this, it was seeded with crystals of form I to induce crystallization. The final product showed that form I had crystallized, and no memory of form II was retained. This observation confirmed that ritonavir form I can be selectively generated from form II under a controlled environment.

To obtain seed crystals of form I, a reverse crystallization technique was used. This technique involved adding a small amount of form I seed crystals in a liquid solvent in which ritonavir is less soluble. Then a small amount of ritonavir solution was slowly added to the anti-solvent containing the seeds of form I. Since the solution is added in a small amount, the product immediately begins to crystallize and yields a large amount of seed crystals.

This approach proved successful as it led to the generation of form I using a minimal amount of seed crystals. Moreover, this process ensured the production of form I crystals starting with 100% form II. Scientists quickly put this technique into practice, which contributed to the reformulation of ritonavir. Finally, in 1999, ritonavir was re-marketed with a new formulation, which included butylated hydroxytoluene, ethanol, gelatin, iron oxide, oleic acid, polyoxyl 35 castor oil, and titanium dioxide, thus, once again, providing relief to patients.

Why did form II initially happen?

After the new polymorph was fully characterized, the researchers found the reason for the occurrence of form II. They established that crystallization of form II can only happen in a highly supersaturated solution if it was seeded with form II crystals. Since such seeds didn’t exist initially, this crystallization might have been due to heterogeneous nucleation by an impurity. When ritonavir is exposed to a base, it undergoes a degradation reaction that produces a cyclic carbamate linkage, structurally similar to form II. It is likely that this degradation product acted as a seed for the nucleation of ritonavir form II.

Coincidental discovery of ritonavir form III

The sudden stability crisis of Norvir highlighted the importance of comprehensive identification of all solid forms of an active ingredient. A thorough polymorph screening, and the identification of new forms are fundamental for effective drug development. It also helps in understanding solubility, stability, bioavailability, and other important physical properties of the different polymorphs, and how these can affect the development and manufacture of the drugs.

To screen polymorphs, multiple techniques have been developed to date including direct solid-solid conversion (i.e. grinding, thermal and moisture stress, etc.) and solvent mediated techniques (i.e. anti-solvent addition, cooling, evaporation, Ostwald ripening, etc.) and other techniques which expose the samples to non-ambient conditions (i.e. high-pressure crystallization, crystallization from the melt, sublimation, etc.). So, even after the drug was re-marketed, the researchers continued their efforts to understand the complex polymorphic behavior of ritonavir. In 2003, scientists from Cambridge, MA, performed an estimated 2000 experiments using high-through crystallization platforms to study ritonavir's polymorphs.

These experiments led to the discovery of two new solvated forms (form III and form V) and one metastable, anhydrous form (form IV).

A few years later, in 2014, scientists in Japan discovered a new crystalline form by crystallizing ritonavir from its melt after heating it in the oven at 60°C for several days. This form was initially believed to be similar to the anhydrous form IV found earlier in 2003. However, when the crystalline structure was observed under X-ray powder diffraction (XRPD), it did not match the published data. Despite this, it was referred to as form IV.

Almost twenty years after the appearance of form II, in 2022, a report was published describing the discovery of a new true polymorphic form of ritonavir, denoted form III . The XRPD of the new crystal form was compared with the published data on the form IV pattern found in 2014, which revealed that the crystalline form discovered by Kawakami was not form IV; instead, it was a mixture of both form III and amorphous material. Therefore, although form III was, in fact, discovered in 2014, it was not recognized as a new form until 2022.

Ritonavir polymorph

Figure 3. Hydrogen bonding motifs in ritonavir polymorphs.

The detailed analysis of form III found that it is the least stable and dense form when compared to form I and form II. The previously described metastable form IV was not considered for this comparison, owing to its obvious lack of stability. Form III presents a needle-like morphology and a lower melting point at approximately 114°C, while the melting point for form I and form II was around 120 and 121°C respectively.

When the solubility of the ritonavir polymorphs was determined under different pH conditions, the order of solubility was form III > form I > form II, which also confirms that form II is the most stable of this trio, while form III would be the most labile.

The hydrogen bonding patterns of form III are even more complex, forming a two-dimensional structure as compared to the other two forms that exhibit one-dimensional bonds. Similarly, the difference of conformations in various functional groups also affects the behavior and stability of this crystalline form. For instance, the N-methyl urea group of form III adopts trans conformation just like form II while the carbamate group forms trans conformation the same as form I.

Kaletra, a solution to solubility challenges

Following the challenges with ritonavir, Abbott Laboratories leveraged the knowledge gained to create Kaletra, a combination of two protease inhibitors: lopinavir and ritonavir. Approved in 2000 for HIV treatment, Kaletra incorporated ritonavir as a booster, enhancing lopinavir’s bioavailability through cytochrome P450 inhibition.

However, Kaletra’s formulation presented solubility issues. The solution was an amorphous solid dispersion (ASD), a critical technology to increase the bioavailability of poorly soluble drugs. Unlike crystalline forms, amorphous dispersions lack the orderly molecular structure, improving solubility and absorption.

The choice of ASD for Kaletra reflects a broader trend in addressing drug solubility challenges, particularly in protease inhibitors like ritonavir, where polymorphism can destabilize formulations. Amorphous dispersions continue to serve as a powerful tool for poorly soluble drugs, offering flexibility in API selection and increased therapeutic efficacy. Kaletra’s success with this technology emphasizes its potential to enhance other formulations struggling with solubility.

Conclusions

The commotion caused by ritonavir’s polymorphism emphasizes the need for comprehensive solid state investigation during the early stages of drug development. When a new, less soluble crystalline form of ritonavir appeared, it changed the stability and efficacy of the drug, leading to a costly market withdrawal. This sudden polymorphic transformation taught researchers that new crystalline forms can appear even years after rigorous testing and approval of the drug. The ritonavir case also caused a shift in the attitude towards the control of the physical properties of the APIs, such that the ability to demonstrate that these properties are well understood and will undergo no changes during development, manufacturing or storage, became a regulatory requirement.

The unpredictability of polymorphism highlights the need

I didn't realize that the subject of more stable lattice formation was already raised when I created my thread on the same subject just to scratch my writer's itch. But speaking of Strike. He seemed to continue to run his Texan shop on public internet venues through the middle 2010s generously resending poorly packed reflux condensers. It took three orders before I got one in one piece. It is remarkable how this man persisted to spread the knowledge at a potential cost of his own freedom. And what I was trying to synch at the time fell under cat 5 schedule, of interest to myself and perhaps a tiny number of disinherited poor souls. No more addictive than Modafinil, but indispensable to some.
People flamboyantly mention ChatGPC. Install koboldcpp and at least Dolphin 3.0 Llama 3.1 8B or Llama 3.1 8B Instruct abliterated to carry on a conversation without a penis envy. :)

I thought that even theoretical synthesis discussions about the drugs of abuse (outside of "Design a molecule) were off-limits here. Are they allowed now that the RC scene is dead?
 
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Now my own take is that it's purely to obtain a patent on MDMA rather than the two polymorphs demonstrating signifcantly different pharmokinetics. As far as I can work out, raecemic MDMA does not demonstrate polymorphism.


Those interested in going into the grass can bay a copy of 'The ADME Encyclopedia" as if nothing else, it makes a good door-stop.

Now the ADDITION SALT, yes, that does make a difference. People may have tried Benzo Fury once and then later batches were disappointing. The reason in that case was that the product was so impure, it would not salt using dry HCl so they had to switch to the succinate salt. I haven't bothered to calculate the ratio of the two MWs but they look pretty close at a glance. Yet a lot of feedback was people asking what was wrong with the 6-APB. So we found out.
Don't waste time for calculations. I assure you that a chlorine cation is lighter than the succinate tail.
 
During my A-levels (the UK’s version of high school), I made the choice to drop art class and take up chemistry. I had come to really enjoy chemistry during my school years, and eventually it seemed like a better option for me to study than art, which felt too abstract—chemistry is exact and predictable, right? What I learned throughout those years and my subsequent chemistry degree, however, was something different: Science is not exact, and our understanding is constantly evolving. It started to seem like a relentless attempt to place evermore complex sets of round pegs in square holes.

Having said that, it is not as though the results of these human scientific endeavors aren’t astounding and necessary, as they include feats of engineering and medicine. The point is that even those feats are imperfect; they are not always fully understood and can carry risks. Just like the building that won awards for structural and architectural brilliance can have unknown faults and fail years later, the drug that is shown to be highly effective in its target indication can bring unknown side effects that surface after licensure.

The path for a molecule, therefore, from early-phase API and drug product to a commercial product, is an iterative one. It involves increased levels of understanding around the synthesis, potential impurities, isomers, crystalline forms, and physical properties—all of which need to be controlled and understood to the fullest, as they can have an effect the safety and pharmacology of the drug.

Crystalline forms are solid materials with highly ordered, repeating atomic structures (lattices), categorized into seven main systems based on symmetry: cubic, tetragonal, hexagonal, trigonal, orthorhombic, monoclinic, and triclinic. These determine the crystal habit (shape), including cubic, tabular, acicular (needle-like), or prismatic, often based on internal structure
^ ya know polymorphism

The chemistry of MDMA is not a given, and requires expert development to get to the commercial standard we need to ensure patient access and safety at scale. However, it should not be expected that we will stop learning about the chemistry of this compound; changes in manufacturing process, scale, and product formulation can bring with them new challenges and lessons.



ArticleJuly 14, 2023
Ritonavir Revisited: Melt Crystallization Can Easily Find the Late-Appearing Polymorph II and Unexpectedly Discover a New Polymorph III
I feel deeply humbled. The subject has been thoroughly explored by bonafide professionals before a hobbyist that I am stumbled into it by pure association having come across a recommended video on YouTube. My professional background in another engineering field, but the fact that polymorphic crystallography resonated with a chemical layman of my background lends a bit of plausibility that something beyond systemic attenuation might be responsible for the loss of MDMA bliss.
 
They Don't Want People Being Gay Is Why You Can't Get It Anymore.
If that were true, they'd outlaw American football (what with its exaggerated masculine shoulder pads, tight tights, giant gay dogpiles, and the fact that each play begins with the center linesman snapping a ball to his crotch where the quarterback has his hands against the center's taint to receive the payload…)
 
There are reactions whose major outcome is predictable to extremely high practical certainty.

But no, most real chemical preparations are not deterministic in the computer-science sense, especially when you include:

trace impurities
side products
polymorphs
solvates
particle morphology
aging/degradation
surface effects
The right analogy is not a deterministic finite automaton. It is closer to a probabilistic state machine operating on an energy landscape, where temperature, concentration, solvent, catalysts, impurities, and time alter the transition probabilities.

The chemist’s job is to make one pathway so overwhelmingly favored that, for practical purposes, the reaction behaves deterministically.
 
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