How to seperate 6-APB succinate from HCI?

[GaumarolBostich]

So I got a bag of brownish powder here - unfortunately the vendor didn't inform.about wether this is succinate or HCI. For my understanding the seperation ist dosage critical. So ist there a way to figure it out without laboratory equip?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Didgital]

Seems highly unlikely a vendor would sell a bag of "mixed" salts and if it is, there is pretty much no way to separate them.

It's likely either the succinate or the HCL not both. For you to determine which is going to be difficult without advanced equipment, but you might* be able to do a ghetto melting point test. Youll need a thermometer some oil and preferably a test tube. Basically toss the crystal into the oil, it wont dissolve. submerge tip of thermometer. heat the oil. Hydrochloride Salt: The HCl form of 6-APB typically melts between 166°C and 171°C.

Melting point of succinate not published afaik.

Why don't you ask the vendor?

 

[GaumarolBostich]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, my intention is to identify if it is succinate or HCl (english not my first language). Thank you for your detailed information, interesting set-up, I might try this if there no better/easier way.
Are both forms water solutable?

The vendor is a gray market online-shop and now out of business. I have been storing this bag a long time already.

 

[placebonaut]

just start with a dose assuming it's the weakest form, then titrate up if you have enough of it.

or you could see what it's like in cold water.

6-APB - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

6-APB succinate is reported to be practically insoluble in CHCl3 as well as very minimally soluble in cold water.

Please check this with other sources as it may be wrong info - AI states that the HCI is "Fine white or off-white powder" while succinate is "Clumpy, tan, brown, or sandy powder"

 

[GaumarolBostich]

Thank you, that is very helpful.
Yes, starting low would be the safest.

My stuff is brown so it would fit into the AI statement which is a good hint but I learned to mistrust judgement by view or smell for substances (the hard way).

 

[Didgital]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, my intention is to identify if it is succinate or HCl (english not my first language). Thank you for your detailed information, interesting set-up, I might try this if there no better/easier way.
Are both forms water solutable?

The vendor is a gray market online-shop and now out of business. I have been storing this bag a long time already.

Gotcha.


Both the HCL and succinate salts will be water soluble. They probably have differing solubilities that could you could use to determine which, but again, that kind of data is pretty hard to find.
The HCL salt should be MORE soluble than the succinate as a general rule.

just start with a dose assuming it's the weakest form, then titrate up if you have enough of it.

This is what I would recommend as well.


I wonder why a lab would make a benzofuran succinate salt over an hcl

I do know therapists specifically use 5-meo-dmt succinate for IV, but a lot of tryptamines don't want to easily form a salt with HCL.

 

[GaumarolBostich]

Thank you all for your help. I guess this is a good base to move on and be as safe as one can be.

I wonder why a lab would make a benzofuran succinate salt over an hcl

I have seen lots of succinate on the market and mentioned in discussions around that drug, so I guess it is not specifically hard to produce.

 

[Esperighanto]

I have seen lots of succinate on the market and mentioned in discussions around that drug, so I guess it is not specifically hard to produce.

As far as I am aware, benzofurans are nearly impossible to salt out as the hydrochloride. The issue with salting it out as the succinate is that sometimes it forms a hemisuccinate, sometimes it's a full succinate, it can make it very difficult to determine how much is a solid dose as it varies batch-to-batch.

 

[GaumarolBostich]

it can make it very difficult to determine how much is a solid dose as it varies batch-to-batch.

Uffa, that doesn't make it easier. This and the really long come up which makes it harder to test the water with a low dose.

 

[crazyotter87]

So I got a bag of brownish powder here - unfortunately the vendor didn't inform.about wether this is succinate or HCI. For my understanding the seperation ist dosage critical. So ist there a way to figure it out without laboratory equip?

Thanks in advance.

I'm in the same situation as you. I sent a sample to Nectar Spectra Labs (formerly Kykeon Analytics iirc) for purity and identification. I want to know how pure, or more likely how impure, it is so I don’t dose too high or too low.

I suggest you do the same. It did cost me $100, though, lol. At least I have 2 grams of this stuff.

 

[GaumarolBostich]

It did cost me $100

That is expensive, almost more than the price for my bag. But may be worth it.

 

[TheLightBringer]

That is expensive, almost more than the price for my bag. But may be worth it.

Worth it in the end since youll see the purity and possible contaminants as well

 

[realgar]

As far as I am aware, benzofurans are nearly impossible to salt out as the hydrochloride. The issue with salting it out as the succinate is that sometimes it forms a hemisuccinate, sometimes it's a full succinate, it can make it very difficult to determine how much is a solid dose as it varies batch-to-batch.

5-APB and 5-MAPB do form crystalline hydrochlorides. I've had absolutely no problem crystallizing and storing them. However, the simplest synthesis of 6-APB results in mixtures with 4-substituted compounds, and their separation is really difficult at each step. If one has to deal with such a mixture, it's probably easier to obtain crystalline succinates.

 

[4DQSAR]

Long ago we got a couple of batches of brown 6-APB. I took one look at a sample, asked for full instrumental analysis and flushed the sample. First hint was that it did not readily dissolve in cold water (the toilet bowl).

The GC-MS/NMR data confirmed that the synthesis began from benzofuran via the aldehyde. In English this means positional isomers of 6-APB as well as traces of ring-halogenated benzofurans were all present.

Any chemist will explain how one goes from benzofuran to 6-APB and why positional isomers and ring-halogenation would be side-products.

Why the succinate? Because the stuff was so impure that it would not form the usual water-soluble microcrystalline 6-APB hydrochloride.

I only know because we got complaints and I was asked to work out what was wrong.

I mean, it was BROWN why taken alone should have been a HUGE red flag.

Why use that route? Cost. I do not and never have played the 'mystery powder game' and I was quite shocked than anyone would accept a sample so obviously not 'as expected' both visually and because of it's insolubility.

 

[GaumarolBostich]

I mean, it was BROWN why taken alone should have been a HUGE red flag

So if I take you right you are saying that a brown 6-APB powder is succinate which is then garbage and should be avoided. Impure means harm as there are too much side-products? As far as I read through several sources of information the succinate form has to be dosed like 30% more but I haven't read about increasing side effects. Thank you, nice insight.

 

[4DQSAR]

So if I take you right you are saying that a brown 6-APB powder is succinate which is then garbage and should be avoided. Impure means harm as there are too much side-products? As far as I read through several sources of information the succinate form has to be dosed like 30% more but I haven't read about increasing side effects. Thank you, nice insight.

I don't think we have any toxicity data on the positional isomers. I have no specific reason to believe them to be unexpectedly toxic, it's more a case of if QC is so poor, who knows what could be in there?

As I noted, two positional isomers and a ring-chorinated isomer (due to synthetic pathway) were all in there with the 6-APB.

But I can't possibly say what is or is not in a particular batch. The succinate salt is 2:1 i.e. one molecule of succinic acid salts two molecules of 6-APB so if the dose has to be increased by 30%, that's more or less 30% of the product that isn't 6-APB. That 30% could be ANYTHING.

It's simply people willing to play the 'mystery powder game' that is the MOST worrying aspect.

Just as an example, a few years ago there was a cluster of overdoses (5 or 6 fatal) caused by a powder that was being sold as MDMA. The instumental analysis showed that it was in fact a mixture of amphetamine and para methyl amphetamine.

Now I think most people here WOULD understand why mixing those two is extremely dangerous but most end-users would not. Long experience has demonstrated that at best manufacturers/distributors just don't care about the end-users right down to those who positively enjoy the whole idea of 'playing god' with the lives of end users.

No high is worth dying for. Accept that rip-offs occur and if in doubt, flush it and decline to buy any more.

 

[GaumarolBostich]

Many user have no exact idea what chemicals they are consuming which is not surprising, after all it is menat to be about party and play. Yes - every seller is a criminal, who fears the police more than the customer, a black market is not Amazon and sold substances are not supervised/regulated in production.

So a vote for harm reduction and public, open information.

Oh, and don't forget to have fun though.

 

[4DQSAR]

I had no idea 6-APB was still out there but when I heard it was, it was not a surprise to find out that the impure but cheap product has dominated because of Grisham's Law. If the market will accept impure product, that's 'good enough' and an entirely Chinese way to look at the problem.

That 'moonrock' MDMA looks awfully like someone has set up a continuous-flow process and what is bizarre is that originally it was purple because of ring-iodination but now dealers are adding a purple dye because for whatever reasons, consumers associated purple with high quality... bizarre, but drug myths take an age to stamp out.

But as you correctly note @GaumarolBostich - as long as we legally control psychoactives, the best we can do is HR. Not harm elimination.