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Does anyone have experience with P2P meth?

BTW it must still be cheaper to manufacture BMK than to produce methamphetamine from L-PAC (or indeer R-PAC) AKA phenylacetylcarbionol.

Apparently L-PAC is now the most common precursor used to make pseudoephedrine (and R-PAC ephedrine). India produces almost all of the world's supply and I suggest the reason is that there are parts of India where the temerature fluctuates very little from day to night and from month to month. Coupled with the low cost of land and the low median salary means it's cheaper to ferment from benzaldehyde and pyruvic acid using nothing more complex than yeast than it is to use syntheses that use a lot of energy and better trained staff.

Apparently you only yield around 46 grams per liter and the product would certainly need to be isolated but if one need only check the progress of the biosynthesis ensuring the mechanical stirrers are in operation, it probably doesn't need a large or particularly well-trained staff to keep an eye on it.

I assume that solar panels could provide electricity but even that could be avoided as nature provides energy in many natural forms.
 
I've heard the terms "hot method" and "cold method!" I believe hot method is old school red phosphorus shit, cold method has something to do with reaction under the soil for 30 days, ldk some shit like that. I don't cook I just eat lOL
 
JackARoe said:
Finished watching Breaking Bad, had not seen it again since it came out.

One burning technical question just for curiosity. In breaking bad Walt had high quality meth, but seemed to be made from P2P when they could not get pseudoephed. I guess a question then would is that be possible, even without the pseudoephed, to make a higher quality meth with the P2P than a batch made from using pseudoephed? Or was that all TV asking us to suspend belief?
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Breaking Bad is a work of fiction made to entertain not educate.

The fact that they put so much emphasis on acquiring methylamine when it can be relatively easily made from available chemicals demonstrates this.

I think the plot device was that Walter's unique ability to create super pure crystals through his own methods was at the heart of high quality issue.

Decent watch though.
 
RyGly76 said:
Seems like the good P2P dope went away as soon as the Fed's clamped down on the red phosphorus!
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Wrong way around.

RP would be used if (pseudo)ephedrine was the immediate precursor and that produces the chiral product.

The interesting thing about Breaking Bad is that it absolutely avoids ever mentioning the ONLY route where just two people could produce at such huge scales. To be fair, it would not make good TV as essentially all that happens is after a cold setup (just putting stuff into a vessel) a dial slowly moves over 12 hours and it's done.

Also that any trained chemist would actually be the muppet making the stuff.

The EUDA tracks amphetamine and methamphetamine laboratory raids all over Europe and it's obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells that they all use the same design. Stainless steel beer barrels as reaction vessels and 'craft' stainless steel still-heads and condensors. Someone is just offering a service in which they offer a 'turnkey' (meth)amphetamine factory. They manufacture the parts, set them up and probably give the muppets a quick lesson and then cut; cut FAST.

Could be they partner with someone who sells precursors but there is a constant battle between the Chinese offering legal pre-precursors and the laws banning those pre-precursors. I know there was a HUGE BMK manufacturer in Russia and there was a really unusual impurity from which it's possible to divine how the BMK was being made.

Not a co-incidence that it was in 2022 that suddenly European manufacturers were suddently resolving the product and using a radical initiator on the (far) less active isomer. I don't think it's because they want to provide the end-users with a better product - I think the price of BMK went up so much that it was the cheaper option.

Anyone considering playing the 'mystery powder game' shoud take a look at the EUDA site as it does rather demonstrate that the muppets wouldn't know if they made a mistake (a bad thing).


I don't know if it's still the case but I do know that for many years it was estimated that there were about 4 times more injecting speed users than injecting opiate users. Often long-term use of speed would mess the user up so much they swapped to opioids. Same with crack. People who would swear crack was good but junkies were all scum soon ended up so messed up that opioids ended up in the mix.

It's pretty bleak stuff all round.
 
fuckabout89 said:
Yeah sadly those days are gone, wish I was around back then. I have a hunch even the P2P shit back then was better.
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Read the link - BMK is still by far the most commonly used precursor because it's a business in itself to sell the stuff while being at one remove from the actual production of (meth)amphetamine.

Think about it, do you think whoever owned that factory in Russia was driving barrels of BMK all over Europe themselves? No, muppets do the driving.

I mentioned seeing an image of a truly vast open-air BMK production facility in Mexico. Now I don't know why it wasn't spotted but I suppose if one can bribe and/or threaten the right official, they will sign of on your BMK factory either making it for legitimate reasons or making something else.

It's more a case that if there is a BMK shortage(or price goes up too much), it becomes cheaper to resolve the product and use a radical initiator to raecemize the unwanted isomer which is resolved again. So it halves the use of BMK.

So while yes, in the Middle East and SE Asia the ephedra plant is still a source, access to pure (pseudo)ephedrine has seen that route diminised in Europe and North America.
 
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4DQSAR said:
Read the link - BMK is still by far the most commonly used precursor because it's a business in itself to sell the stuff while being at one remove from the actual production of (meth)amphetamine.

Think about it, do you think whoever owned that factory in Russia was driving barrels of BMK all over Europe themselves? No, muppets do the driving.

I mentioned seeing an image of a truly vast open-air BMK production facility in Mexico. Now I don't know why it wasn't spotted but I suppose if one can bribe and/or threaten the right official, they will sign of on your BMK factory either making it for legitimate reasons or making something else.

It's more a case that if there is a BMK shortage(or price goes up too much), it becomes cheaper to resolve the product and use a radical initiator to raecemize the unwanted isomer which is resolved again. So it halves the use of BMK.

So while yes, in the Middle East and SE Asia the epedra plant is still a source, access to pure (pseudo)ephedrine has seen that route diminised in Europe and North America.
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What sort of legitimate purposes could one manufacture BMK for? I mean theoretically? I'm in no mood to build a factory. I'm just interested.

Quite fascinating to see the Arabic meth scene flourish with the biomaterial growing everywhere. Good Vice article kicking about somewhere.

I've noticed Iranian meth and heroin on the markets recently. Wonder if this has been to fund their war efforts.
 
If you think about it, BMK is quite a basic building block in organic synthesis. You aren't limited to just reductive amination of that ketone moiety.

Plus quite a few amphetamine derivatives find medical use so there will be quite legitimate buyers BUT the two difference is that bought legally it's more costly BUT at least you know what you have.

I mentioned that unique impurity found in Russian-made BMK a while ago and it turned out to be 1-(4-tert-butoxyphenyl)propan-2-one which initially seems bizarre but if you know MIBK is a common solvent in Russia then you can also derive that commercial-grade contains tert butyl alcohol, that the synthesis employs a halogenation step and from that derive many of the imputs.

I spent a few hours on the simple basis that I've had to work out what impurities were in samples so many times, I was keen to see what I could work out in this case. Pure curiosity. But if a war hadn't intervened, that impurity could have seen dozens of labs all discovered at once.
 
KattyKorner said:
P2P, or phenyl 2 propanone, is a precursor to methamphetamine and amphetamine.

They react methylamine with p2p, and reduce what is called the imine, the new chemical formed by "combining" p2p and methylamine, with things like mercury amalgam, sodium borohydride, or platinum/palladium on carbon. Can also use n methyl formamide.

This produces dextro and levo meth together, which is called a racemic mixture. Think of it like your hands. There is a left and right. They both are very similar, but the thumbs face different directions. Same thing, just put your hands on top of each other for the general idea, thumbs in different directions.

The levo meth is practically worthless, as it doesnt affect your brain the same as dextro meth. Dextro is the good stuff.

The cartels produce the vast majority of US meth. They separate the enantiomers, the dextro and levo, using tartaric acid. Basically the dextro and levo tartrates, salts of tartaric acid, have different solubilities, which allows them to be separated relatively easily.

So meth is meth. If made from pseudoephedrine, it will be pure dextro meth because commercial pseudoedphedrine is already separated by enantiomer. If made from p2p, it is at least mostly dextro meth, depending on how well they separate the enantiomers. But it will still have the effects of meth, maybe with more side effects due to the levo that may remain in varying amounts
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I don’t believe in the meth is meth.
Same as i don’t believe 4-mmc is 4-mmc. Or MD is MD. 4-mmc now is drastically different to when is was legal and made in industrial factories by professionals. Steroisomers and precursors play a major role in how the drug feels.
I don’t believe in the burnt out receptors theory or the nostalgia one.
Old MDMA that was synthed from sassafras was far superior than what it is now.
In the 90s one pill would last 6-7 hours and they contained 100mg - 160mg.
And there’s a lot been tested and most only contained MDMA….sorry, went a bit off topic
 
I'm inclined to agree with you.

I've tried many different batches methamphetamine over the years but nothing has ever given me as much pleasure as smoking gear from pseudo that has been through Nagai reaction. Fresher the better. I even tried it again laterally and it still seemed a little 'better' than super clean commercial meth.

The commercial stuff if used carefully has a clean, functional stimulant feel. The pseudo just had more 'pleasure' to it.

Is it just a case of mass production vs small batch with care and attention? There's a doc in YouTube about an old cook. He said you had to use iodine, to give it legs or summit.

Fuck knows. Either way it's a powerful chemical and should be either avoided or treated with great respect.
 
Yeah definitely!
It’s fucking obvious that the same substance can have a different effect by the way it’s made, from precursor to synthesis route. Like I said before, 4-mmc is a prime example, just after the ban I was getting this light brown ketamine like micro shard stuff. I think this was Indian Mephedrone, the very first stuff was a white crystalline from China but they banned us and India took over. Fuck, it was the best party drug ever, the euphoria was fucking magical, better that MDMA imo every line you got a rush, just like the first one if the night.

Now it’s dog shit. First 3 lines are alright. Doesn’t have the rush like the Indian stuff did. And not its bit massive crystals and just feels very weak. Like - what’s missing. Dr Zee who rediscovered it wrote when he synth’d it, it was a white fluffy powder, now they are big fucking crystals. I hope one day someone fixes it,

I haven’t been blown away by meth yet like,
I’ve tried it a hand full of times, always snorted it, if I had a meth pipe I would have smoked it for sure, but yeah it’d been good, but has never gave me Intense euphoria
 
nato23 said:
I don’t believe in the meth is meth.
Same as i don’t believe 4-mmc is 4-mmc. Or MD is MD. 4-mmc now is drastically different to when is was legal and made in industrial factories by professionals. Steroisomers and precursors play a major role in how the drug feels.
I don’t believe in the burnt out receptors theory or the nostalgia one.
Old MDMA that was synthed from sassafras was far superior than what it is now.
In the 90s one pill would last 6-7 hours and they contained 100mg - 160mg.
And there’s a lot been tested and most only contained MDMA….sorry, went a bit off topic
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Mdma produced from safrole is racemic. Mdma produced through literally any precursor that uses MDP2P is racemic. That's just how it works, MDP2P 100% of every time produces racemic. Might be some special agents that are enantiomer specific, but they arent used in the black market, ever

It just doesnt add up in terms of chemistry. The different reducing agents might affect the ratio of enantiomers, but the big labs have used the same agents for decades, generally. Typically the leuckart, amalgam, and precious metak catalysts.

Mephedrone you might have a point, but it's still 99% doubtful. The cheapest, easiest, and mose large scale method produces racemic iirc.

There might be some slight noticeable difference in the subjective effects from differing by products, but not really that noticeable imo.

Not a chemist, but the science od chemistry just doesn't support this type of thinkin
 
I've been fortunate enough to taste meth straight from the crystallization dish it was salted out to and re-x'd in, from two different synthetic methods that should on paper lead to the same isomeric output. I couldn't tell them apart, but sometimes if not fully salted you get sort of "wet" crystals and I personally feel as if those hit harder, but I can't tell why and I suspect it's just placebo on my end.
 
Esperighanto said:
I've been fortunate enough to taste meth straight from the crystallization dish it was salted out to and re-x'd in, from two different synthetic methods that should on paper lead to the same isomeric output. I couldn't tell them apart, but sometimes if not fully salted you get sort of "wet" crystals and I personally feel as if those hit harder, but I can't tell why and I suspect it's just placebo on my end.
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No, I don't think it's placebo.

I've experienced something similar. When the pH has been slightly off and those 'wet' crystals take a lot longer to dry out properly but yeah, when they do they hit better and harder, I think.
 
BadBoy377 said:
No, I don't think it's placebo.

I've experienced something similar. When the pH has been slightly off and those 'wet' crystals take a lot longer to dry out properly but yeah, when they do they hit better and harder, I think.
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I know that sublingual administration is rare, but these wet crystals seemed stronger sublingually and intranasally but orally it seemed about the same as drier crystals. Those were my subjective notes, I'm glad that somebody else has noticed a difference though with these "wet" crystals.
 
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