Does anyone have experience with P2P meth?

[awitha_teetha]

I didn't know what it was called until earlier today when I read an article about the subject. A few months back my sister told me she had taken some unknown pills that she described as being "super highly potent meth pills," which now in hindsight I'm wondering if they were P2P meth. Has anyone had any experience with this? Is it at all common in New England?

 

[KattyKorner]

P2P, or phenyl 2 propanone, is a precursor to methamphetamine and amphetamine.

They react methylamine with p2p, and reduce what is called the imine, the new chemical formed by "combining" p2p and methylamine, with things like mercury amalgam, sodium borohydride, or platinum/palladium on carbon. Can also use n methyl formamide.

This produces dextro and levo meth together, which is called a racemic mixture. Think of it like your hands. There is a left and right. They both are very similar, but the thumbs face different directions. Same thing, just put your hands on top of each other for the general idea, thumbs in different directions.

The levo meth is practically worthless, as it doesnt affect your brain the same as dextro meth. Dextro is the good stuff.

The cartels produce the vast majority of US meth. They separate the enantiomers, the dextro and levo, using tartaric acid. Basically the dextro and levo tartrates, salts of tartaric acid, have different solubilities, which allows them to be separated relatively easily.

So meth is meth. If made from pseudoephedrine, it will be pure dextro meth because commercial pseudoedphedrine is already separated by enantiomer. If made from p2p, it is at least mostly dextro meth, depending on how well they separate the enantiomers. But it will still have the effects of meth, maybe with more side effects due to the levo that may remain in varying amounts

 

[SealSlapper]

P2P, or phenyl 2 propanone, is a precursor to methamphetamine and amphetamine.

They react methylamine with p2p, and reduce what is called the imine, the new chemical formed by "combining" p2p and methylamine, with things like mercury amalgam, sodium borohydride, or platinum/palladium on carbon. Can also use n methyl formamide.

This produces dextro and levo meth together, which is called a racemic mixture. Think of it like your hands. There is a left and right. They both are very similar, but the thumbs face different directions. Same thing, just put your hands on top of each other for the general idea, thumbs in different directions.

The levo meth is practically worthless, as it doesnt affect your brain the same as dextro meth. Dextro is the good stuff.

The cartels produce the vast majority of US meth. They separate the enantiomers, the dextro and levo, using tartaric acid. Basically the dextro and levo tartrates, salts of tartaric acid, have different solubilities, which allows them to be separated relatively easily.

So meth is meth. If made from pseudoephedrine, it will be pure dextro meth because commercial pseudoedphedrine is already separated by enantiomer. If made from p2p, it is at least mostly dextro meth, depending on how well they separate the enantiomers. But it will still have the effects of meth, maybe with more side effects due to the levo that may remain in varying amounts

So the cartels are responsible for making the good quality shit? Good to know.

 

[KattyKorner]

So the cartels are responsible for making the good quality shit? Good to know.

It depends.

People cut meth all day long.Cartels might cut it at the source.

They just produce it, and separate the enantiomers, to some degree at least, and sell it.

Could be cut along the way, could be poor quality synthesis.

Drug reports from the police and what not seem to say it's pretty decent though, iirc.

 

[opiatekrzy]

In my opinion, regardless of which precursor you use; the end result is methamphetamine.

 

[4DQSAR]

I keep an eye on this and it seems that (pseudo)ephedrine while still used to produce methamphetamine, is harder to obtain (it being controlled as a precursor). In Russia and Mexico there are large facilities producing P2P BUT it does seem that when the cost of that precursor becomes too high, 'cooks' choose to resolve the active isomer and recycle the unwanted isomer using a chemical that produces free-radicals (such as AIBN) which raecemises that 'waste' and goes back into the the resolution step.

I suspect that bulk is also a consideration - it smuggling becomes problematic, it's obviously easier if only half the bulk needs to be moved.

It really has turned into a massive industrial-scale business with P2P being made in multi-tonne reactors.

But which is worse I couldn't tell you, only that whichever one currently predominates is always 'worse' than the other.

I think @opiatekrzy is about right - most users don't really seem to notice. I suspect the only POSSIBLE advantage of the optically pure product is that it will more readily form large crystals which I've read some users will pay more for.

I suspect anyone who use methamphetamine will have encountered both forms and it seems older users are more familiar with the racemate who have a preference for it which may or may not be rational.

 

[KattyKorner]

I keep an eye on this and it seems that (pseudo)ephedrine while still used to produce methamphetamine, is harder to obtain (it being controlled as a precursor). In Russia and Mexico there are large facilities producing P2P BUT it does seem that when the cost of that precursor becomes too high, 'cooks' choose to resolve the active isomer and recycle the unwanted isomer using a chemical that produces free-radicals (such as AIBN) which raecemises that 'waste' and goes back into the the resolution step.

I suspect that bulk is also a consideration - it smuggling becomes problematic, it's obviously easier if only half the bulk needs to be moved.

It really has turned into a massive industrial-scale business with P2P being made in multi-tonne reactors.

But which is worse I couldn't tell you, only that whichever one currently predominates is always 'worse' than the other.

I think @opiatekrzy is about right - most users don't really seem to notice. I suspect the only POSSIBLE advantage of the optically pure product is that it will more readily form large crystals which I've read some users will pay more for.

I suspect anyone who use methamphetamine will have encountered both forms and it seems older users are more familiar with the racemate who have a preference for it which may or may not be rational.

Imo the Mexican cartels are going through phenylacetic acid, because to get to p2p it's very simple, and no real chemistry equipment is needed, mostly just big stills essentially like alcohol.

Ive read blurbs here or there that some groups may, key word, not bother with recycling the L enantiomer as that's added work, and the reagents are watched now, probably depends on the particular needs of the group.

I'm also thinking they tend to use the lecukart to aminate it, as I read a bust a while back with 15k pounds of n methyl formamide, no real reason to have that without the leuckart.

Old heads did likely have mixed enantiomer, and the newer groups had at least somewhat isolated to more pure enantiomers. Not a stimulant fan, but everything I've read said pure D is just a much better experience.

 

[4DQSAR]

@KattyKorner - I'm with you on this. Tried it once, worst experience of my life. I'm in the UK so I read about what goes on both in Mexico and Europe and although those radical initiators ARE in theory 'suspicious', they are widely used in some fields. In fact, the very ones that are used (azo compounds) are now being partly replaced by other agents that avoid nitriles in the product so in truth, it may be another case of as one precursor is controlled, another is found.

I'm sure makers balance all of the competing costs and IF enantiopure methamphetamine was so vastly better, resolution and oxidation of the unwanted isomer back to PMK would likely turn up or at the very least producers would take that hit and resolve.

In fact, it has been suggested that for a while the Mexicans did just that but kept hold of the 'waste' on the basis that if all else failed - they had at LEAST another material to make PMK from. In fact they were apparently so stuck for the raecemate at one point that they swapped to using radical initiators for quite a while i.e. 100% of the (S) methamphetamine was being made from (R) methamphetamine.

BUT if consumers accept the raecemic product - thats 'good enough', very much a lesson Chinese producers first took to heart.

 

[fuckabout89]

So the cartels are responsible for making the good quality shit? Good to know.

Good Quality shit was the old peanut butter crank cooked in a bathtub by biker gang dudes with beer belly guts and shit made from ephedrine.

 

[opiatekrzy]

I think good quality shit was when an Individual didn't have a tolerance and honestly it's 80% of the problem and 20% is in my opinion the purity/quality

 

[fuckabout89]

I think good quality shit was when an Individual didn't have a tolerance and honestly it's 80% of the problem and 20% is in my opinion the purity/quality

Yeah if that was case then when I used Pseudo stuff and been using mostly the supposedly pure stuff on the street it would feel the same which it didn't. Felt like a completely different drug.

 

[4DQSAR]

Yeah if that was case then when I used Pseudo stuff and been using mostly the supposedly pure stuff on the street it would feel the same which it didn't. Felt like a completely different drug.

This is even better than the 'mystery powder game' since one could even perform the usual instrumental analysis and STILL not know the absolute configuration.

I'm almost certain that some years ago someone posted how to DIY a simple polarimeter. It won't provide the stated rotation values but the author makes the resonable point that if rotation is present, you at least have a significant enantioexcess and it's unlikely that someone would intentionally go for some odd mix of enationers - if it's optically active, it's very likely to be chiral.

But never lose sight of that fact - you cannot look at a powder and know what it is and vendors a usually quite uniform in claiming whatever THEY are selling is indeed the best.

As a rule-of-thumb, if someone can increase their profits at the expense of safety/quality/honesty, they will. Grisham's Law means that if one person adopts this then all must follow just to stay in business. If methamphetamine has a 'light dusting' of one of the potent cathinones, would the end user know? That IS where instrumental analysis is your friend.

 

[fuckabout89]

This is even better than the 'mystery powder game' since one could even perform the usual instrumental analysis and STILL not know the absolute configuration.

I'm almost certain that some years ago someone posted how to DIY a simple polarimeter. It won't provide the stated rotation values but the author makes the resonable point that if rotation is present, you at least have a significant enantioexcess and it's unlikely that someone would intentionally go for some odd mix of enationers - if it's optically active, it's very likely to be chiral.

But never lose sight of that fact - you cannot look at a powder and know what it is and vendors a usually quite uniform in claiming whatever THEY are selling is indeed the best.

As a rule-of-thumb, if someone can increase their profits at the expense of safety/quality/honesty, they will. Grisham's Law means that if one person adopts this then all must follow just to stay in business. If methamphetamine has a 'light dusting' of one of the potent cathinones, would the end user know? That IS where instrumental analysis is your friend.

No really because this extends beyond isomers.

 

[4DQSAR]

No really because this extends beyond isomers.

Yes, as I pointed out...

 

[JackARoe]

Finished watching Breaking Bad, had not seen it again since it came out.

One burning technical question just for curiosity. In breaking bad Walt had high quality meth, but seemed to be made from P2P when they could not get pseudoephed. I guess a question then would is that be possible, even without the pseudoephed, to make a higher quality meth with the P2P than a batch made from using pseudoephed? Or was that all TV asking us to suspend belief?

 

[fuckabout89]

Yes, as I pointed out...

This extends beyond the left and right Autistic order right down into the molecular structure itself.

 

[KattyKorner]

@KattyKorner - I'm with you on this. Tried it once, worst experience of my life. I'm in the UK so I read about what goes on both in Mexico and Europe and although those radical initiators ARE in theory 'suspicious', they are widely used in some fields. In fact, the very ones that are used (azo compounds) are now being partly replaced by other agents that avoid nitriles in the product so in truth, it may be another case of as one precursor is controlled, another is found.

I'm sure makers balance all of the competing costs and IF enantiopure methamphetamine was so vastly better, resolution and oxidation of the unwanted isomer back to PMK would likely turn up or at the very least producers would take that hit and resolve.

In fact, it has been suggested that for a while the Mexicans did just that but kept hold of the 'waste' on the basis that if all else failed - they had at LEAST another material to make PMK from. In fact they were apparently so stuck for the raecemate at one point that they swapped to using radical initiators for quite a while i.e. 100% of the (S) methamphetamine was being made from (R) methamphetamine.

BUT if consumers accept the raecemic product - thats 'good enough', very much a lesson Chinese producers first took to heart.

I dont think they were using it to make pmk just light hearted teasing.

I think maybe, impossible to know, but maybe there was an halogenated byproduct when using red P and iodine, that may have contributed to the effects.

That's the only think I can see making a real difference, maybe some other by products too. But thats the only thing

 

[KattyKorner]

Finished watching Breaking Bad, had not seen it again since it came out.

One burning technical question just for curiosity. In breaking bad Walt had high quality meth, but seemed to be made from P2P when they could not get pseudoephed. I guess a question then would is that be possible, even without the pseudoephed, to make a higher quality meth with the P2P than a batch made from using pseudoephed? Or was that all TV asking us to suspend belief?

It's mostly TV magic.

I'm not a chemist, but I'm pretty surethere are enantiomer specific routes from p2p, I just dont know them off the top of the head. Enantiomer specific routes exist for other chemicals, it's a thing industry really likes.

 

[opiatekrzy]

It's a stretch by saying pseudo meth feels like a totally different drug then p2p meth in effects.
I know for me, when I first started doing meth and for about a duration of 5 months of doing it I got alot of effects or "magic" out of the meth. Nowadays 8years Into it I only get to a certain plateau, and I definitely don't feel the magic like I did before. I guess I can definitely say it feels like two different drugs.
My point is this: tolerance is definitely tricky.
Regardless of the deravitive or byproduct the end of result is methamphetamine. Cartels have the formula down good enough to where it isn't racemic meth and is straight d-meth.
My first year of doing meth was back in 2014 when everything was still pseudo -based and and this is just my opinion but all this talk about it I definitely have to say it's overrated and exaggerated to say it's way better then p2p. If not like it's super meth or some sort of special analog.

 

[4DQSAR]

This extends beyond the left and right Autistic order right down into the molecular structure itself.

Autistic? Is the term you are ineffectually searching for possibly enantiomeric?

I refer you back (again) to the comment in which a quite evidently (to everyone else, it seems) made that point.

'The mystery powder game'.