I’m a trans woman - AMA

[Allylbenzene]

Proper context is important I think.

<incomplete quote>
I should've known by your incoherent nonsensical "scientific" ramblings that you're also a TERF, confident ignorance in one topic seems to go hand-in-hand with confident ignorance in another topic.

You quoted my message which was in response to (emphasis added):

But I've never met a single actual woman who thinks it's an important issue (that trans women be kept out of women's sports), or is particularly bothered by the idea of "(biological) women's spaces being invaded" and all that. Granted, I don't actually know any elite female athletes personally, and probably I'm self-selecting for a somewhat "woke" crowd.

The incomplete quote you used was simply pointing out what this user themselves admitted (in bold).

My reference to Allylbenzene as a TERF...

I will admit not knowing the meaning of TERF. I've seen it used but never looked it up out of uninterest. It sounds like it could be a sensible term but I'll remain cautiously skeptical.

...is as a result of his attempt to posture his transphobia as just being a "pro-women" stance, when in reality it's transphobia with a mask on, trying to appear virtuous.

Changing the definition of women and girls to include men and boys sounds unrealistic yet some people choose to accept this.

I really suspect that the personal freedom for an informed adult to exert control over their body's chemistry is what matters here.

Sure, but the influence on the education system is very real. We're talking about uninformed young impressionable minds who are particularly vulnerable to adopting beliefs which influence how they view themselves and their mental health. Parents have a right to protect their children from this imo, like this guy who campaigns world-wide for this.

 

[mal3volent]

These are referring not to biological sex, but to sexuality as in attraction, not chromosomes.

How did I argue that the social construct of gender takes precedence over the concept of biological sex? Both are relevant characteristics of somebody, and I'd suspect them to be meaningfully incomparable to one another. My reference to Allylbenzene as a TERF is as a result of his attempt to posture his transphobia as just being a "pro-women" stance, when in reality it's transphobia with a mask on, trying to appear virtuous.

Well, subscribing to the use of the term TERF as a slur does pretty much imply that.

 

[Vastness]

Can someone catch me up on the conversation because with the last message I'm absolutely lost.

Wait, but...

Well, subscribing to the use of the term TERF as a slur does pretty much imply that.

I don't think that's true in any way that I could relate to the statement it refers to. TERF just means something, and the keyword in it is "Reactionary", IMHO. I thought the context it was used in was accurate, as described - the "Exclusionary Feminism" a reaction to an innate transphobia. Is it a slur? For it to be a slur kinda implies it's an unfair, wrongly discriminative word, no? Is there a form of "Reactionary" Feminism - ie, a feminism that exists for a reason other the inherent value of feminism - that isn't, like, kinda bad, though?

 

[mal3volent]

Can someone catch me up on the conversation because with the last message I'm absolutely lost.

Wait, but...

I don't think that's true in any way that I could relate to the statement it refers to. TERF just means something, and the keyword in it is "Reactionary", IMHO. I thought the context it was used in was accurate, as described - the "Exclusionary Feminism" a reaction to an innate transphobia. Is it a slur? For it to be a slur kinda implies it's an unfair, wrongly discriminative word, no? Is there a form of "Reactionary" Feminism - ie, a feminism that exists for a reason other the inherent value of feminism - that isn't, like, kinda bad, though?

I think you're over complicating it. The term terf is only ever used in a derogatory way. As you can clearly see from the post in question, it is usually spat out with venom in the same way other slurs are. Now I couldn't really give a shit about slurs (sticks and stones etc) so have at it for all I care. It is used not to accurately describe a person but to demean and demonize them before the conversation ever starts.

To say a female is "exclusionary" or "radical" because she doesn't think biological males can be women is a bit silly. Female and woman were used interchangeably until very recently. Feminism historically was about the equality of SEXES. Nothing to do with social constructs or self perceptions.

 

[Allylbenzene]

To say a female is "exclusionary" or "radical" because she doesn't think biological males can be women is a bit silly. ... Feminism historically was about the equality of SEXES. Nothing to do with social constructs or self perceptions.

Feminism refers to the belief that women and men should have equal opportunities in economic, political, and social life. source

So TERF essentially means women people who believe female means women/girls (not men/boys). That sounds very plain, not "radical" or "exclusionary".

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

There is a ton of misinformation on here regarding trans people and historically trans people have been a big point of contention on the forums.

I’d like to try to combat that by allowing people to ask me whatever they want, provided the questions are in good faith and not wildly inappropriate/invasive.

I am an early 20s trans woman (MtF) who has been living socially as female (at school, 1/2 of my jobs, with all of my friends, at the bar/club, walking down the street, with some of my family, etc.) for several months and transitioning medically (estrogen, no T blockers) for just under 3 months.
I first realized that I was trans many years ago at age 19 and initially identified as non-binary, then partially socially detransitioned about a year ago, and then started identifying as female-leaning (and then fully a woman) over the past several months.
I live in a fairly progressive major city outside of the USA so have been fortunate enough to avoid the repression that others face.
I identify as lesbian and have found the lesbian community here to be incredibly accepting and supportive.

I'm never sure if I have this right...for now, I'm not gonna edit the word like "w**d" ["word"] but will do so, or remove it if it's a slur.
To my understanding, "transgender" is the umbrella term for anybody who does not identify as the gender the were assigned at birth...and "transexual" is when someone had had bottom surgery...or, that WAS it? Or is "transexual" considered offensive now?

 

[Vastness]

To say a female is "exclusionary" or "radical" because she doesn't think biological males can be women is a bit silly. Female and woman were used interchangeably until very recently. Feminism historically was about the equality of SEXES. Nothing to do with social constructs or self perceptions.

I'd say it's possible to be "exclusionary" to trans women without being a TERF, though. I don't disagree with you otherwise. But that's the point - feminism interacts with and influences social constructs and self-perception (as it relates both to one's biological sex and to the gender one perceives themselves to be) but it doesn't contain within it any well defined or even general consensus opinions on either of those things except that "women" should not be subjugated by "men" or even by themselves, collectively or individually,

If a feminist simply doesn't believe trans women, or more likely a specific subset of trans women, are not technically women enough to be allowed into certain biological-woman-oriented groups, for reasons are purely biological... commiseration or celebration at the menopause, to pick a random thing off the top of my head, but actually obviously just anything related necessarily to the experience of being born with a vagina and decided to keep it, so far... then they're not a "reactionary" feminist, are they? The become reactionary when they try to make feminism about trans issues, don't they? And as a consequence, usually radicalize themselves if they hadn't already, because trans issues for the most part are extremely low on the list of priorities that any feminist concerned, primarily, with correcting the ancient, ongoing system oppression of women in human societies should be thinking about correcting.

Feminism isn't an ideology about definitions or the importance of them, by your own admission, and the definition of the word woman is not something that's going to meaningfully impact the limitations in opportunities and other challenges faced by women, solely because they are women. When you try to argue that definitions do meaningfully affect the plight of humans who live as women (a definition that does include trans women - but, it doesn't have to!), in this world, should be one of the foundational tenets of feminism, that a woman is a biological woman, born a woman, and trans women must categorically not be included (in fact - excluded) from consideration in the context of feminist issues when there is no legitimate biological reason that they should be excluded (chronic lack of pockets on women's clothes? ....if you're a trans woman also bothered by that, "get fucked, you don't know what it's like, you can just go back to being a man..." ...?) then it becomes TERFy, IMO... and somewhat worthy of condemnation, and throwing the odd slur about...

Having said that this is all starting to feel very semanticsy and definitions-of-words-centric and I'll concede it's possible some of those lines of reasoning are themselves of debatable relevance to... whatever it is we're actually discussing here. Oh, one final point. Trans women obviously currently are an oppressed group with many people trying to infringe on their right just to exist or make their own decisions about how to dress, how to refer to themselves, or remain in control of their own lives (this is just not up for debate, is it?), so TERF'ing, broad, unnuanced exclusion of trans women from inclusion in discussions about the rights of another still oppressed group seems somewhat innately hypocritical since we have one oppressed group arguing for continued oppression of an even more oppressed group alongside pushing for less oppression directed at themselves, even when the issues at hand do have relevant overlap that's not just biological. And this is true, by the way, whether or not we define "women" to include trans woman, if we're going by average levels of group oppression experienced. Just if trans women are excluded from "women", generally then the magnitude of how much more oppressed trans women are than women (biological women OR a hazier definition of woman, again) becomes significantly greater.

 

[mal3volent]

In 2017 there was a massive feminist march , one of the biggest single day protests in American history. Millions of people participated. What's the symbol from that event that people remember? The pussy hats. Not even 10 years ago, the vagina was celebrated as an integral part of being a woman. And no one had an issue with it, other than conservatives. Imagine suggesting today in certain circles that vaginas and womanhood were in any way necessarily related.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

@arrall

Are your preferred pronouns still they/them?

 

[Vastness]

Imagine suggesting today in certain circles that vaginas and womanhood were in any way necessarily related.

Would that be a problem...? I mean they are related... maybe I really do live in bubble within a bubble. I'm nor even sure what's going on in this discussion I admit like are we back to "what is a woman?" shit basically... and a woman is a person who has a bona-fide, genuine vagina, thus excluding an even smaller minority of intersexed hernaphrodites who for whatever reason got their vagina removed... I dunno about that statement, at all. Like, that logic is the reason for a lot of the oppression I keep mentioning. It's not even logic, it's a simplifying habit of thought evolved into our more brutal ancestor species because I guess it just never became more evolutionarily advantageous for the primate line recently for the male brains to fully appreciate and be interested in the inner world's of the oddly shaped type of themselves that's basically a vagina that talks. [Ninja edit - which of course they are absolutely not! If we think it means anything at all to be human, really... beyond inescapable event-response loops.... man I accidentally took 2mg buprenorphine earlier instead of 1mg, and holy god did not feel so great for a while... so much nausea... amyway....] I mean you can feel it right? It perfectly explains the systemically oppressive emergences across time. It perfectly explains why the superhuman blind algorithms of today's tech-human-attention-harvester-machine lasered into the gender fault lines in the human psyche as an extremely vulnerable target for the culture war manufacture of outrage, to then sell back to us.

Like, it cannot just be about genitalia, even though it feels like it might be, it just can't. Because it seems like it always has to imply thinking such as "what is a man? A person with a penis" type lines of thought. Ergo generations of a hidden ultraminority of people society tells you you've already failed in some way, you're an undesirable for being an outlier that challenges the performance based ritual way we want to communicate and behave...

It's just words people use to describe themselves, you could say maybe yeah the fact that "biological woman" is now the term you need to say far more often than before - oh wait no you can just say ciswoman already, right? So maybe it's just language needs to evolve a bit. Heh, that's not in question, it does have to. But it's definitely not ALL that needs to happen.

I dunno anyway I'm just musing now not saying you were implying any of the absurdium-directed examples I alluded towards. But basically... IMHO society just needs mass reeducation that this stuff is just not important to focus on culturally, socially, politically, we got a whole universe just a little way up with an unquantifiable number of unstoppable natural events running on invisible timers that would obliterate our exposed rocky home... and we're that worried about shit like this, instead, apparently.

 

[arrall]

@arrall

Are your preferred pronouns still they/them?

She/her
Thank you for asking!

In 2017 there was a massive feminist march , one of the biggest single day protests in American history. Millions of people participated. What's the symbol from that event that people remember? The pussy hats. Not even 10 years ago, the vagina was celebrated as an integral part of being a woman. And no one had an issue with it, other than conservatives. Imagine suggesting today in certain circles that vaginas and womanhood were in any way necessarily related.

An association between a group and a trait does not mean that all members of a group must conform to said trait. Many people associate men with an attraction to women. Does this mean that gay men do not exist?

 

[arrall]

I think you're over complicating it. The term terf is only ever used in a derogatory way. As you can clearly see from the post in question, it is usually spat out with venom in the same way other slurs are. Now I couldn't really give a shit about slurs (sticks and stones etc) so have at it for all I care. It is used not to accurately describe a person but to demean and demonize them before the conversation ever starts.

To say a female is "exclusionary" or "radical" because she doesn't think biological males can be women is a bit silly. Female and woman were used interchangeably until very recently. Feminism historically was about the equality of SEXES. Nothing to do with social constructs or self perceptions.

“TERF is a slur” is fucking ridiculous.

 

[mal3volent]

She/her
Thank you for asking!


An association between a group and a trait does not mean that all members of a group must conform to said trait. Many people associate men with an attraction to women. Does this mean that gay men do not exist?

Yes but the largest women's march on record is associated with vagina hats.
My point being there was a link between womanhood and having a vagina. And the left at that time had no issue. It was celebrated.
And it was only 2017.

The default sexual orientation of a males being attracted to females does not threaten the existence of homosexuality, in fact it reinforces it.

 

[KriptonitXxx]

Cinsel organ naklinden sonraki yıllarda bunun birçok kez öfkeye yol açtığına şahit oldum.

 

[mal3volent]

“TERF is a slur” is fucking ridiculous.

Well how could I possibly argue with that well reasoned response.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Fwiw, this post has some pretty good constructive discussions about the meaning of TERF:

Why are TERFs called TERFs and what do people mean by exclusionary?

I mean, when people call others TERFs, the TERFs arent usualy even close to radical feminist. From what I see, they could be considered first wave feminist and even then that's pushing it for some.

There is some exeption to that. I have seen feminist beeing called TERFs because they wanted to exclude trans-woman from some group discution, usualy about periods and puberty. I personaly dont think it's bad for a group of people to exclude an other to be able to freely exchange between people who share the same experience. In that case, cis-woman talking about cis-woman issue. Does that make me a TERF? And if so, why would I be grouped with people who dont think trans-woman are woman?

So yea, if anybody could explain the history of the word TERF and how it evolved over the years that would be great!

 

[arrall]

The default sexual orientation of a males being attracted to females does not threaten the existence of homosexuality, in fact it reinforces it.

And how does the default genitalia of a woman being a vulva then make those with intersex genitalia or penises automatically not women?

Well how could I possibly argue with that well reasoned response.

TERFs are people who attempt to use feminism as a trojan horse for transphobia, much like people use “protecting children” as a trojan horse for homophobia (and now transphobia).

If you consider TERF a slur, I’m guessing you think cracker is worse than the n-word?

 

[Allylbenzene]

From this post on TERF meaning:

The term was originally coined by an inclusive radical feminist to distinguish herself from other radical feminists who were ‘exclusionary’, meaning that they exclude trans women from their definition of womanhood (ie they base womanhood on sex not identity).

Slur or label?

Nowadays the term has become a popular term for ‘transphobe’ and many people are given the label regardless of whether they are radfems, let alone feminists.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Well, subscribing to the use of the term TERF as a slur does pretty much imply that.

TERF is not a slur. It's an accurate description, "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist". These people are very strongly against trans people being anything but what they were asigned at birth and self-identify as the latter part of that acronym. The fact that some of them think it's a slur just goes to show even THEY know they're assholes.
I remember them trying to claim "cis" is a slur a while back lmao.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

I'm going to repeat a little personal story which I think has some bearing on this issue.
Some years ago I took my then-13 yr old niece camping. She was in a phase where she wore her hair very short and dressed androgynously and had a lot of attitude ( I love that girl!) She went to the women's bathroom and some father of a young girl came storming up to me yapping about how I was letting my son in the girls room. At that moment she walked up and gave him the stink eye so he shut up. Neither of us said anything and maybe he still thought she was a boy, dunno.
Anyhow, even when you obey the law, you can still get shit given to you. What is the answer then, to dictate that people dress in "conventional" ways so the sensitive don't get their feelings upset? Dude was just as upset as he would have been if a trans woman went in there, in fact more than he would have been if the trans woman had been passable.

The bathroom thing: the VAST MAJORITY of us, when we have to use a public bathroom, just wanna go in, do our business and get out as quickly as possible. If you're in a public bathroom and your biggest concern is what genitals the other people using the bathroom might have then YOU are the weirdo.

^by "you" I mean people who think like that, not "you" as in you who I am replying to btw