• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio

Trigger Warning Canadian Journal of Anesthesia Editorial Labels Carfentanil (note spelling) as a Weapon of Mass Destruction


I don't think there have been human studies that can provide the ED50, LD50 and all that relates to it's actions in man. I suggest animal (possibly primate) models were used. Of course, even primates cannot provide much detail on the qualitative effects.

But who says carfentanil would be chosen? It's not unique and likely the only advantage is that as a side-effect of someone finding a telescoped route to remifentanil was that the same telescoping applying to carfentail (and homologues therof).

I felt it worth that R-4066 derivative just on the off-chance that someone in a position to make use of that information might read it.
 

Several Canadian labs were shut down in 2017 but I ASSUME that the key intermediate can still be smuggled into Canada. After all, no operation gets every single member of a massive drug distribution gang so at least one chemist got out.

Funny, like hand-writing I can usually work out if it's someone I know. But thankfully this once, I see nothing of ANY of their work.

But mark may words - a chemist will show up, set up, teach and cut. Cut FAST.
 

So now plain vanilla fentanyl is suddently a 'weapon of mass destruction'.

It should be - it's just too damned potent to be used anywhere outside of an operating theatre or at most, as slow release patches (which seem to have fallen from grace just because it is fentanyl). But while 12mg at once is clearly a hazard, over 72 hours, much less so.

So what about the nitazines? I'm just glad the 'cooks' are two dumb to have spotted the one analogue is some x6000 M. Yes, slightly harder to make, but sooner or later, just as someone figured out carfentanil, it's invitable that they will, eventually find it.
 
It's not that dangerous if you don't take an overdose. I think the real negative point is purely the withdrawal.
 
It's not that dangerous if you don't take an overdose. I think the real negative point is purely the withdrawal.

The Canadian gang were caught with Kgs of the stuff. Do you think they CARE who buys it? There we go - WMD.

Don't forget, two of the KEY design criteria for the Novichok class was to bypass the CWC. It only listed gases and liquids - so they designed a solid. Scaffold not covered by CWC (of the time) either.

But snow-blower on a rooftop - terrorism.

Even the Moscow Theatre seige saw Spetsnaz use some unspecified mixture of fentanyl derivatives - voila, 132 dead.

Diprenorphine itself is far from ideal as an antidote what with both DOR and KOR activity (read proconvulsant, dysphoric with hallucinations). Even the instructions state a person given diprenorphine should be considered a serious casualty and treated as an emergency and admitted to an appropriate medical facility ASAFP.
 
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It's not that dangerous if you don't take an overdose. I think the real negative point is purely the withdrawal.
Brother. The overdose is at 1.36 MICROGRAMS what do you mean "just dont take to much" show me a single junky who can properly dose this please
 
Brother. The overdose is at 1.36 MICROGRAMS what do you mean "just dont take to much" show me a single junky who can properly dose this please
the only reason people are living it and having bigger therapeutic ranges is because of wicked fucked up tolerance
 
Wer have only limited knowledge of just how potent carfentanil is in man. While a TI of 10,600 is listed, that's based on animal models. Whle μ selective, I suspect that analgesic activity might be mediated by μ1 (supraspinal receptors) rather than μ2 (brain) but even this isn't certain. But I think the fact that it's μ2 agonism is what produces respiratory collapse has been established.


The handful of 'trip reports' suggest a longer duration of action. Now it wasn't clear if they meant the 'high' lasted longer or if the interval between doses could be longer (several report it stopped AWS for 12 hours) possibly because at least some of the metabolites are actives.

It IS highly lipopholic and more protein-bound that fentanyl and one or indeed both may explain that unexpected factor. Not one mentioned the term 'euphoric' and at least a few researchers have suggested that it is uniquely β-arrestin-biased so tachyphlaxis due to endocytosis may well be considered a positive to sellers since in essence, it's a one-way street. Renarcotising was observed and that would line up with high protein bound fraction and that LogP.

LONG occupany time with the specific warning that naloxone lacks the ability to reverse OD.

It's achiral - that's incrediby important to the 'cooks' who make these things. While derivatives of OHMEfentanil are more potent, three chiral centres so potency of mixture (coupled with synthetic complexity) makes it a leaas optimal target.

Note that MOST papers talk about case studies of fatalities.

You know, long ago I went to a lecture by Hardy, one of Bentley's team. Not only did they describe the infamous 'glass rod incident' but also being first-into-man for buprenorphine. 200μg IV made him puke for 24 hours.


M-99 was imbibled but in a well resourced drug discovery laboratory, such potent things are always a hazard. That all survived a pot of tea stirred with a dry glass rod contaminated with the stuff sort of underlines how risky such compounds really are. Safety is a culture, not just a process.

I still think it ironic that Wildnil comes as a a two vial product. One a solution of carfentanil, the other a solution of diprenorphine. For one, Janssen has to pay McFarlen-Smith!
 
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