Heroin Why is methadone withdrawal far worse than heroin withdrawal?

[Allylbenzene]

Agmatine really helps with the tapper, I currently dropping 10% every couple of weeks using Agmatine and a few helpers..

Looking at sr17018 for that final push , or maybe just a water drop, keep the sr just for emergency

Agmatine is an excellent option.
I wrote this practical overview to facilitate full recovery including reducing wd, repairing any accumulated damage and more importantly preventing relapse. It achieves everything that SR-17018 cannot (including very important things which prevent relapse) and uses only inexpensive OTC items. Nothing "experimental".

 

[Keif' Richards]

If you guys have questions regarding the Methadone clinic scene, I'm likely the best person to ask. Feel free to message me.

I've never experienced Methadone as actually "worse" than withdrawal from any other Opioid. Honestly, I've never withdrawn from an Opioid that made me think it was better or worse than any other. I always found these differences to be pretty subtle. The fact would always remain, if I had used Opioids heavily, chronically, then I was going to experience a painful withdrawal.

To be clear, I've only ever used:

- Heroin
- Methadone
- Morphine
- Oxycodone
- Hydromorphone (Dilaudid)

I say this as I don't have familiarity with some of the more exotic Opioids that feature peripheral action outside of Opioid agonism. I imagine for instance, Tramadol with it's SNRI activity could lead to a compounded withdrawal. Venlafaxine (Effexor) is an SNRI a\nd we all know it is brutal for some people coming off of it.

I understand Methadone also has peripheral action as an N-Methyl-D-Aspartate receptor antagonist. I admittedly am not a wealth of knowledge regarding NMDA, though I'm learning. I know Ketamine, Dextromethorphan (DXM; Robotussin) an Phencyclidine (PCP) all exert some of their effects through NMDA antagonism.

I know one result of NMDA antagonism is a reduction in pain. I've read that Methadone is a good choice for Opioid rotation for, among other reasons. it could have an additive effect to the Opioid in reliving pain. I can see how this could lead to some kind of discomfort upon withdrawal.

I have always said, I believe the majority of the difference between Methadone and the short-acting Opioids is just that, the duration of action. Methadone lasts longer, so does the withdrawal. The psychology of a long withdrawal versus a short one is m
Iore complex than one might think. 14

If you're withdrawing from Heroin, you have 3-4 days of really bad withdrawal before you start getting some relief. Methadone is at least 10-14 days. If you have a life, maybe a family, responsibilities like a job, two weeks of non-functional withdrawal is difficult to work in. The person withrawing from Heroin is likely going to be able to sleep somewhat by day 3-4 and this is a huge relief. Methadone withdrawal means going days without being able to sleep. This starts breaking you down real quick.

I learned that you can't rush it. You have to accept that it will take time and go as slowly as you need to. If it takes you a year, even two years, it's better to succeed than to rush into things and fail.

Anyway, that's my two cents regarding the thread topic.

 

[Gaz_hmmmm]

i’ve always thought of doing that. i get methadone for pain so my entire monthly supply as pain patient with zero history of addiction on my record is the daily dosage given to a homeless fentanyl and crack addict pissing dirty everyday

apparently the withdrawl pain of a convicted rapist and violent criminal on drugs that is a leech on the system while i pay the taxes to fund his methadone and ambulance rides; is more valid than my health related pain i didn’t ask for.

anyways.

not sure if you can get methadone in this way but i’ve heard of ppl scoring everything else in methadone clinic lines

It's not a case of their withdrawal pain is more valid than your pain. It's that stabilisation from methadone / opioid maintenance significantly reduces the harms and risks overdosing and the potential need for acquisitional crime to buy more opioids to feel normal, also it reduces other health costs such as needing antibiotics all the time from unclean injections leading to abscesses and that also leading to antibiotic resistance.

Using the worst of the worst example of user to get people against opioid maintenance and to be pro chronic pain sufferer is wrong.

Whether using for psychological or physical pain opioid users are probably using also to mask some pain and legal regulation (With tax and education.) would be a far better solution for is all.
It's not a one ("drug user") or other (Chronic pain sufferer) situation.
Keeping opioids illegal for personal use will only keep screwing pain sufferers.

Why the ever loving fuck would they do that to you? Forcing someone to suddenly cold turkey from strong opioids like that is tantamount to torture IMO.
How are you doing now?

In the late 90's a lot of user's who were sent to prison and forcibly detoxed off opioids with no med's took the UK government to the European Court of Human Rights and won, they declared it a form of torture.

People now get bup' and meth' maintenance in prison now, thankfully cause of our European Human Rights, which the Conservatives/Tories, Reform and even Labour are all saying we should give up.

You know its bad when a 0,8 of tt raw wont even make you feel 100 percent well unless you have taken atleast 20-25 percent of your daily methadone dose, thats what it was like for me, having 2 addictions.

I'm guessing you're a Brit'/English, cause I've only heard people here saying "tt raw".
The idea we in the UK get 10 out of 10 raw stuff is laughable.

It gets cut in Afghanistan and then all along the chain.

Also it's only one addiction not two.
You only have a high tolerance opioid mu agonist addiction/dependence, not two addictions/dependencies.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

It's not a case of their withdrawal pain is more valid than your pain. It's that stabilisation from methadone / opioid maintenance significantly reduces the harms and risks overdosing and the potential need for acquisitional crime to buy more opioids to feel normal, also it reduces other health costs such as needing antibiotics all the time from unclean injections leading to abscesses and that also leading to antibiotic resistance.

Using the worst of the worst example of user to get people against opioid maintenance and to be pro chronic pain sufferer is wrong.

Whether using for psychological or physical pain opioid users are probably using also to mask some pain and legal regulation (With tax and education.) would be a far better solution for is all.
It's not a one ("drug user") or other (Chronic pain sufferer) situation.
Keeping opioids illegal for personal use will only keep screwing pain sufferers.




In the late 90's a lot of user's who were sent to prison and forcibly detoxed off opioids with no med's took the UK government to the European Court of Human Rights and won, they declared it a form of torture.

People now get bup' and meth' maintenance in prison now, thankfully cause of our European Human Rights, which the Conservatives/Tories, Reform and even Labour are all saying we should give up.




I'm guessing you're a Brit'/English, cause I've only heard people here saying "tt raw".
The idea we in the UK get 10 out of 10 raw stuff is laughable.

It gets cut in Afghanistan and then all along the chain.

Also it's only one addiction not two.
You only have a high tolerance opioid mu agonist addiction/dependence, not two addictions/dependencies.

I definitely agree about forced opioid cold turkey being classed as form of torture.

And, yeah, on average heroin has been cut between 8 and 16 times before it reaches the actual user.

 

[Ddeeee]

It's not a case of their withdrawal pain is more valid than your pain. It's that stabilisation from methadone / opioid maintenance significantly reduces the harms and risks overdosing and the potential need for acquisitional crime to buy more opioids to feel normal, also it reduces other health costs such as needing antibiotics all the time from unclean injections leading to abscesses and that also leading to antibiotic resistance.

Using the worst of the worst example of user to get people against opioid maintenance and to be pro chronic pain sufferer is wrong.

Whether using for psychological or physical pain opioid users are probably using also to mask some pain and legal regulation (With tax and education.) would be a far better solution for is all.
It's not a one ("drug user") or other (Chronic pain sufferer) situation.
Keeping opioids illegal for personal use will only keep screwing pain sufferers.




In the late 90's a lot of user's who were sent to prison and forcibly detoxed off opioids with no med's took the UK government to the European Court of Human Rights and won, they declared it a form of torture.

People now get bup' and meth' maintenance in prison now, thankfully cause of our European Human Rights, which the Conservatives/Tories, Reform and even Labour are all saying we should give up.




I'm guessing you're a Brit'/English, cause I've only heard people here saying "tt raw".
The idea we in the UK get 10 out of 10 raw stuff is laughable.

It gets cut in Afghanistan and then all along the chain.

Also it's only one addiction not two.
You only have a high tolerance opioid mu agonist addiction/dependence, not two addictions/dependencies.

right tt chocolate chip or the speckly rock and the weaker but still good 1 to 1 although it depends on whats about and who you know i mean the whole point of tt raw is that it is more expensives because its more pure although you may be right it obv aint 100 perceent pure, if it was you would be dead. maybe not raw but its defo tt.

 

[Dr. John Thackery]

It's not a case of their withdrawal pain is more valid than your pain. It's that stabilisation from methadone / opioid maintenance significantly reduces the harms and risks overdosing and the potential need for acquisitional crime to buy more opioids to feel normal, also it reduces other health costs such as needing antibiotics all the time from unclean injections leading to abscesses and that also leading to antibiotic resistance.

you could say the same thing for catastrophic chronic pain re all the collateral damage of not “treating”
it.

the fact remains that one group is given releif and the other isn’t. that’s the bottom line

lots of costs associated with losing jobs, missing work, turning your the illicit market because doctors won’t treat the pain,

the tons of mew medical complications that come with unmedicated pain like psychiatric problems, lack of movement (bed rotting), suicide (although that’s a cost saver not a cost); the list goes on.

the fact is that people on narcotics for pain are very bit as reviled as drug addicts and are nowhere near the drain on society. the way it is now there there really is no distinction. tons of ppl
at methadone clinics have never even smoked weed and are working professionals- they just lost their script because opioids were de facto banned for pain management

methadone clinics still won’t treat pain though you have to lie to them. so pain patients don’t get the dignity of an honest medical record even like addicts do

 

[Dr. John Thackery]

In the late 90's a lot of user's who were sent to prison and forcibly detoxed off opioids with no med's took the UK government to the European Court of Human Rights and won, they declared it a form of torture.

wow that’s amazing

someUS states off bupe to patients.



it’s funny how it’s torture when you do it to a criminal in prison but when doctors do it to a civilian patient and cut them off of 90 mg oxy per day with zero warning it’s totally legal and nobody gives a fuck (in the US)

another example of criminals having more rights than pain patients

 

[helpingout]

50 mg is absolutely insane to withdrawl from and should be illegal and constitute human torture in any decent civilized society (humans are far from decent or civilized though and most take joy in seeing ppl suffer from opioid withdrawal) - so fuck society and everything that’s coming to those animals


i’ve tapered down to 1 mg per day and kicked it 3 times like that and it’s not anything horrible doing it like that. awful no doubt but not catastrophic

even coming off 10 mgs per day is way worse than i could ever manage hence tapering down to 1 mg per day

i’m currently on 2 mg per day right now hoping to get off but i don’t think i ever will to be honest. i can’t afford to be that sick at work.

capitalism *complains that everyone is on drugs and can’t work as hard but you aren’t allowed to be sick either*

also capitalism *creates such misery that the only way ppl won’t jump in front of the train is to take drugs that they can’t get off of*

when is RFK opening those government funded camps you can go to to get off all this shit? still waiting for that. or did the fucking moron finally realize that if they pull ppl off drugs the workforce would collapse?

hopefully i can just keep tapering down into the sub milligram dose range and see what happens

Hey I think you can get off. Look up “vitamin list for opiate wirhdrawal” with the search function and ask your methadone prescriber to prescribe you a short two weeks of 1800mg Gabapentin per day. You’ll be able to get off I swear to god. While working you’ll be able to do it. I believe in you. If you really want to get off opiates I’ll be available by direct message always. I’m saying this as 8months clean off opiate narcotics of all kinds including maintenance medicine. If it interests you it’s been three years since I got off heroin. You can do this. We do recover. It’s totally possible.

You’re going to need additional support tho. I think getting off opiates is holistic.

Use 24hourrecovery.org to find smart meetings either online or in person in your area. Start reading the smart book. Buy one on Amazon and read on your phone. Get a recovery journal and start doing the tools as you go through them. Even if it’s a digital recovery journal this will be tremendously helpful.

Get a therapist if you don’t have one already. Get one versed in addiction. Look for resource centers in your area that offer therapy services for people in recovery.

If there’s a local recovery cafe near you I’d go become a member there and do your weekly meeting.

If you believe in god na and as can be helpful for the spiritual side of getting clean. If you don’t still feel free to attend meetings because aa and na people are just about some of the nicest people on earth to be friends with. There’s definitely a cult vibe but there’s also a vibe of friendliness that is definitely real and authentic. Go to lunch with people. Meet them. Recovery rates for oud go up to 40% with two programs from 2% with just one.

Expect to lapse and relapse, frequently at times, and don’t just give up because you did. Clean time isn’t some kind of game died streak like Duolingo. It’s a way of thinking and being that gets reinforced over time. Lapse and relapse are part of the give and take of building that new thinking.

I am available to you at all times. Let me know what I can do to help

 

[Dr. John Thackery]

Hey I think you can get off. Look up “vitamin list for opiate wirhdrawal” with the search function and ask your methadone prescriber to prescribe you a short two weeks of 1800mg Gabapentin per day. You’ll be able to get off I swear to god. While working you’ll be able to do it. I believe in you. If you really want to get off opiates I’ll be available by direct message always. I’m saying this as 8months clean off opiate narcotics of all kinds including maintenance medicine. If it interests you it’s been three years since I got off heroin. You can do this. We do recover. It’s totally possible.

You’re going to need additional support tho. I think getting off opiates is holistic.

Use 24hourrecovery.org to find smart meetings either online or in person in your area. Start reading the smart book. Buy one on Amazon and read on your phone. Get a recovery journal and start doing the tools as you go through them. Even if it’s a digital recovery journal this will be tremendously helpful.

Get a therapist if you don’t have one already. Get one versed in addiction. Look for resource centers in your area that offer therapy services for people in recovery.

If there’s a local recovery cafe near you I’d go become a member there and do your weekly meeting.

If you believe in god na and as can be helpful for the spiritual side of getting clean. If you don’t still feel free to attend meetings because aa and na people are just about some of the nicest people on earth to be friends with. There’s definitely a cult vibe but there’s also a vibe of friendliness that is definitely real and authentic. Go to lunch with people. Meet them. Recovery rates for oud go up to 40% with two programs from 2% with just one.

Expect to lapse and relapse, frequently at times, and don’t just give up because you did. Clean time isn’t some kind of game died streak like Duolingo. It’s a way of thinking and being that gets reinforced over time. Lapse and relapse are part of the give and take of building that new thinking.

I am available to you at all times. Let me know what I can do to help

i really don’t know if i want off to be honest and that already tells me my chances are slim.

i’m just minimizing my dose as much as i can.

then one random day ill take 60 mg to get fucked up.

 

[helpingout]

I’ve thought the same but there’s no way to even know how to get that conversation going, or for it to end up leading to a mugging.

Hey I think you can get off. Look up “vitamin list for opiate wirhdrawal” with the search function and ask your methadone prescriber to prescribe you a short two weeks of 1800mg Gabapentin per day. You’ll be able to get off I swear to god. While working you’ll be able to do it. I believe in you. If you really want to get off opiates I’ll be available by direct message always. I’m saying this as 8months clean off opiate narcotics of all kinds including maintenance medicine. If it interests you it’s been three years since I got off heroin. You can do this. We do recover. It’s totally possible.

You’re going to need additional support tho. I think getting off opiates is holistic.

Use 24hourrecovery.org to find smart meetings either online or in person in your area. Start reading the smart book. Buy one on Amazon and read on your phone. Get a recovery journal and start doing the tools as you go through them. Even if it’s a digital recovery journal this will be tremendously helpful.

Get a therapist if you don’t have one already. Get one versed in addiction. Look for resource centers in your area that offer therapy services for people in recovery.

If there’s a local recovery cafe near you I’d go become a member there and do your weekly meeting.

If you believe in god na and as can be helpful for the spiritual side of getting clean. If you don’t still feel free to attend meetings because aa and na people are just about some of the nicest people on earth to be friends with. There’s definitely a cult vibe but there’s also a vibe of friendliness that is definitely real and authentic. Go to lunch with people. Meet them. Recovery rates for oud go up to 40% with two programs from 2% with just one.

Expect to lapse and relapse, frequently at times, and don’t just give up because you did. Clean time isn’t some kind of game died streak like Duolingo. It’s a way of thinking and being that gets reinforced over time. Lapse and relapse are part of the give and take of building that new thinking.

I am available to you at all times. Let me know what I can do to help

i really don’t know if i want off to be honest and that already tells me my chances are slim.

i’m just minimizing my dose as much as i can.

then one random day ill take 60 mg to get fucked up.

Sounds like a plan. If the goal is to get fucked up. Reducing your dose will help tremendously. Take your time. I trust you to do what’s best for you.

Getting off opiates has helped me a lot but even now, I’m currently sick, and I kind of seethe with rage that I wouldn’t be able to get a three day codeine bottle. It makes me want to go illicit and get something that will have me feeling much better.

I’m committed though. It’s just terrible feeling this bad and having just about no recourse or control over my condition whatsoever.

“Here’s an rx for honey lemon tea, some menthol vapor rub, a single cough drop, as much dextromethorphan as you can want, and a large implement so you can go fuck your self.” - doctors everywhere

It’s hard to face down that kind of internal negativity. So I don’t fault you for sticking with what you know and is familiar to you. Getting clean is waters uncharted. And it’s slow going. And it’s hard.

 

[Dr. John Thackery]

Sounds like a plan. If the goal is to get fucked up. Reducing your dose will help tremendously. Take your time. I trust you to do what’s best for you.

it’s definitely not a goal or anything i want to repeat but history has shown me that im a drug addict and will repeat experiences that make my life worse and harder in the name of temporary relief

 

[helpingout]

it’s definitely not a goal or anything i want to repeat but history has shown me that im a drug addict and will repeat experiences that make my life worse and harder in the name of temporary relief

That sounds like a pattern of behavior. A drug addict is a person whom is addicted to the use of drugs. It sounds like you have a behavior that’s problematic that you’re ascribing to being a drug addict. But you’re a human being who uses drugs to relieve certain conditions of your existence at the cost of making your existence worse and harder. That’s an okay place to be and I get the impulse to just write everything off as “I’m a drug addict it will always be this way.” But if you ever build that motivation to start changing that behavior, I know that I was helped by everything I shared earlier.

It’s perfectly okay to contemplate getting off drugs and it’s perfectly okay to decide not to. But you are a human being first and foremost and you’re behaving like many many other human beings have done. We all have ways we struggle. I think you’re going to be alright, it will just be in your own way and in your own time. You’ve got this!

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

To be clear, I've only ever used:

- Hydromorphone (Dilaudid)

What is it like?
What way did you use it? (Snort, smoke I.V. etc)

I've heard of this stuff from so many old timers, they all spoke highly of it.
How does it compare to Heroin (Afghan #3 AKA UK Brown smoking Heroin)

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

f you guys have questions regarding the Methadone clinic scene, I'm likely the best person to ask. Feel free to message me.

That include me? I could do with a word or two with you.

I've never experienced Methadone as actually "worse" than withdrawal from any other Opioid. Honestly, I've never withdrawn from an Opioid that made me think it was better or worse than any other. I always found these differences to be pretty subtle. The fact would always remain, if I had used Opioids heavily, chronically, then I was going to experience a painful withdrawal.

IMHO & taking into account YMMV I found sudden withdrawl off Methadone, going from 50mg daily for 4 months 3 weeks to nothing to be horrific. I have done many sudden Heroin withdrawls, like being arrested & not given bail so I sat in a Jail cell from late Friday evening, say around 3pm till 6am Monday when "The Paddy Waggon" comes to take you to Court then sat in a cell under the Court till 2pm that afternoon to go see The Judge & it was bad but nothing compared to Methadone withdrawl.

As to "if I had used Opioids heavily, chronically, then I was going to experience a painful withdrawal." I have used Heroin since 2001, the longest I have been off it is when I had a 9 day a-PVP session, apart from that I have used Heroin at the very least once every 2-3 days. Since I have had a habit it's been daily, for over 20 years I have used some form of strong Opiate.

 

[puke]

Do any of you guys use Kratom for Opiate wds if so how is it working out for u?

 

[rplate81]

I have withdrawn from oxycodone, hydrocodone, oxycontin, tar heroin cold turkey.

I have tapered off of buprenorphine at .25mg, and methadone I stopped a 3mg.

The buprenorphine wasn't great because of the long half life.

I can say BY FAR that methadone was the worst withdrawals in every way and they lasted forever due to the drugs long half life. Never ever ever a fucking gain!!!

 

[rplate81]

If we are on the topic, better add Cornhole Lust, Tough Fucking Shit, I Wanna Fuck the Shit Out of You, Tough Fuckin' Shit, etc.....

 

[Gaz_hmmmm]

wow that’s amazing

someUS states off bupe to patients.



it’s funny how it’s torture when you do it to a criminal in prison but when doctors do it to a civilian patient and cut them off of 90 mg oxy per day with zero warning it’s totally legal and nobody gives a fuck (in the US)

another example of criminals having more rights than pain patients

I think there's only two or three US states thar offer methadone and buprenorphine maintenance in prison, New York, California and I think Illinois.

You say it's funny that it's torture to force a prisoner off of an opioid dependence cold turkey and that when a doctor does that to a civilian in the US no one cares.

You're looking at this all wrong and through the lens of the USA.

The European Court of Human Rights may have ruled for the prisoner's that their forced detox was torture and against their Human Rights but that also made it in Europe that doctor's must not take people off of opioids cold turkey, as all forced withdrawal was torture and therefore illegal, so doctors in Europe are legally meant to wean people off of opioids and not extremely fast either.

This isn't to do with the EU, the European Human Rights Act and the European Court of Human Rights were all set up in the aftermath of WW2 to hopefully stop fascists taking over European governments again and to act as an early warning system if a government was going fascist.

 

[rplate81]

I think there's only two or three US states thar offer methadone and buprenorphine maintenance in prison, New York, California and I think Illinois.

California definitely does because someone recently died from a methadone OD in county.

 

[Featherfall]

If you guys have questions regarding the Methadone clinic scene, I'm likely the best person to ask. Feel free to message me.

I've never experienced Methadone as actually "worse" than withdrawal from any other Opioid. Honestly, I've never withdrawn from an Opioid that made me think it was better or worse than any other. I always found these differences to be pretty subtle. The fact would always remain, if I had used Opioids heavily, chronically, then I was going to experience a painful withdrawal.

To be clear, I've only ever used:

- Heroin
- Methadone
- Morphine
- Oxycodone
- Hydromorphone (Dilaudid)

I say this as I don't have familiarity with some of the more exotic Opioids that feature peripheral action outside of Opioid agonism. I imagine for instance, Tramadol with it's SNRI activity could lead to a compounded withdrawal. Venlafaxine (Effexor) is an SNRI a\nd we all know it is brutal for some people coming off of it.

I understand Methadone also has peripheral action as an N-Methyl-D-Aspartate receptor antagonist. I admittedly am not a wealth of knowledge regarding NMDA, though I'm learning. I know Ketamine, Dextromethorphan (DXM; Robotussin) an Phencyclidine (PCP) all exert some of their effects through NMDA antagonism.

I know one result of NMDA antagonism is a reduction in pain. I've read that Methadone is a good choice for Opioid rotation for, among other reasons. it could have an additive effect to the Opioid in reliving pain. I can see how this could lead to some kind of discomfort upon withdrawal.

I have always said, I believe the majority of the difference between Methadone and the short-acting Opioids is just that, the duration of action. Methadone lasts longer, so does the withdrawal. The psychology of a long withdrawal versus a short one is m
Iore complex than one might think. 14

If you're withdrawing from Heroin, you have 3-4 days of really bad withdrawal before you start getting some relief. Methadone is at least 10-14 days. If you have a life, maybe a family, responsibilities like a job, two weeks of non-functional withdrawal is difficult to work in. The person withrawing from Heroin is likely going to be able to sleep somewhat by day 3-4 and this is a huge relief. Methadone withdrawal means going days without being able to sleep. This starts breaking you down real quick.

I learned that you can't rush it. You have to accept that it will take time and go as slowly as you need to. If it takes you a year, even two years, it's better to succeed than to rush into things and fail.

Anyway, that's my two cents regarding the thread topic.

as someone on venla, i can only confirm this. Missing a single day at a medium - high dosage is immidiete nightmare dimension