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Stimulants 4-MMC - a victim of disappearing polymorphism?

Pastel

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
148
It is safe to assume that a large number of forum members are familiar with a concept of enantiomers, substances that have the same molecular formula and connectivity but differ in their three-dimensional arrangement. The root of the reason why D-meth is better than L-meth or why R-modafinil is stronger than a racemic (mixed enantiomers) form of modafinil. Stereometry is a well-understood area of organic chemistry, but there is another dimension in identical materials science which is far less understood and is utterly fascinating. It falls under nucleonic crystallography. Chemical compounds that form crystals can exist in multiple forms. Cocoa butter, for example, has six polymorphic crystal forms. The shiny one that you get from the store, which makes a satisfying crunchy sound is one of them. But let it rest for a while, and it will turn into another polymorph - I am sure you've seen. And once it does, good luck trying to get it back to the original form! Just like radio isotopes of radioactive elements can be more or less stable, some crystal lattice formations of the same polymorphic molecule can be more stable than others. A truly uncanny aspect of polymorph formation is that sometimes once a more stable form of the same material occurs in nature, it can poison the global environment and forever (at least as we know today) prevent the previously dominant, but now less stable form from coming into existence ever again. Note that I said sometimes, which is why we still have six polymorphs of cocoa butter.

One of the most famous cases when this impacted humanity on a great scale is what happened with an anti-HIV drug Ritonavir. Abbott pharmaceuticals introduced the drug in 1996 and in that time it was critical to keeping millions of people alive. Then at some point in 1998 without any warning over a course of a few weeks at a US production facility Ritonavir mutated from an easily soluble pharmaceutically desirable Form I into a far less soluble Form 2, which made the drug far less effective. All process steps in the American facility have been scrutinized to no avail. Nothing has been changed in the pharmaceutical workflow, no new equipment introduced, no sabotage has been discovered, but any Form 1 Ritonavir produced at the lab would quickly undergo phase transformation into Form 2. Luckily, Abbott pharmaceuticals had another lab in Italy which continued to produce Ritonavir in its original up until that point Form 1. A team from US visited the italian facility and compared production steps. Everything proved to be identical and puzzled Abbot scientists returned to the US. But this was not the end of the story. In a few weeks that followed the visit, the italian production facility reported that their lab seemed to have been infected. They could no longer produce Form 1 of Ritonavir. Now this was no chocolate - millions of lives depended on this drug. At that time the industry has not yet developed the many alternatives which we have today to keep HIV patients alive. But all efforts to produce the original Form were fruitless. Abbot has lost $250 million as a result of the incident. It was hypothesized that the visiting US team has brought tiny particles of Form 2 imbedded in either their clothes or, think of pharmaceutical clean room standards - in their own bodies and that was enough to vanquish Form 1 for good.

And this is not the only case. The same problem plagues both chemical and pharmaceutical industry. It can come out of nowhere. We have neither knowledge to predict when this might happen, nor the technology to counter it. If you are a and aspiring chemist, it makes crystallography, the Walter White's choice a promising field. If you could only put away your other experiments... :)
There is a famous statement by the renowned crystallographer Jack Dunitz who captured the frustration and unpredictability of the field with this observation: "The most stable crystal form of a substance is the one that has yet to be discovered."
Dunitz’s point was that just because you have been using "Form A" for twenty years doesn't mean "Form B" doesn't exist. It just means the conditions (the "seed") to trigger Form B haven't happened yet.
And that brings me to my take on why post-ban mephedrone might never again "feel like the real thing".
 
very interesting read, I didn't know about Ritonavir.

I only started taking 4mmc post uk ban but have had some supposedly "pre-ban" 4mmc, to my novice eyes it seemed a bit mellowed and actually less potent than the newer stuff that's doing the round.

do you know what's change, have any insider info? or are you speculating/asking people what they think?
 
The condition that I described has affected many successful pharmacological and chemicals commercial products. It is a case of a nascent branch in chemistry, a situation exceptionally rare in modern science. A lot has been theorized about pre-ban 4-mmc. Most theories focused on a single manufacturer using a process which created a particular mix of related products with a commonly recognized set of desired recreational effects. Once the drug stopped being produced in China due to being banned first in UK, then in US, followed by most of the West, the production has migrated to Russia. How it developed there is a story of its own. It was a progression from point distribution to franchising of development kits. You might want to look up Hydra if you are interested in the detail. Mephedrone production and law enforcement are integrated entities in Russia due to its current political structure. The important part that led me to the theory that I proposed above is the following. In chemical stereometry (Dextro/Levo,) precursors may define the resulting enantiomers or a mix of those. The current theory of evolving nucleonic polymorphism (Particular cristal form formation) is based on the fact that each cristal lettuce type structure is associated with an energy state, kind of like an electron energy state association with its orbital subshell. The differences in energy states are extremely minute. We theorized that a tiny particle of a more stable lettice form may cause transition of a less stable form into the lettice form of the initiating particle. But what causes a new form particle immerge in the first place? We don't know that. It might be something either in the precursors or in external environment. It might be a substance of a single isomer or a presence of particular combination of unrelated polymorphs of other substances. It might be a tiny amount of some chemically active compound or a miniscule compound/particular compound combination acting as a catalyst. We cannot exclude possibilities of some unknown type of Oscillating Reaction (look up water, copper(II) sulfate (CuSO_4), and citric acid). We cannot even rule out an esoteric energy transfer co-factors such as Wheeler-Feynman Absorber Theory which involved subatomic particles travelling back in times. I know how loony it might sound to someone without a proper background, but depending on your mind set, you might want to look up these concepts - I am not making them up. Like I said, - this a nescient area of crystallography, where theories border on lunacy or science fiction. A current prevailing thought that the pre-ban Mephedrone feel of a particular cocaine-MDMA induced state was due to some adulterants in solvents or precursors is probably right. But given how frequently Disappearing Polymorphism occurs - we might have a case here. Remember - one of the evils or gifts of 4-MMC (depending on how you think about it) is that unlike with MDMA, you could redose for a very long time without the loss of desired effects. To me this signals that the perceived difference between modern and pre-ban mephedrone is not the MDMA type loss of magic caused by tolerance. Unfortunately, my collection of pre-ban samples does not include 4-mmc and even if it did, I don't have the licence which would grant me access to the equipment required to compare the crystal structures.
 
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In theory one could obtain a box-fresh Büchiglas* pilot-scale reactor and do it the Chinese way. But I contest that it's simply misrepresention (the para halogen homologues - known neurotoxins being an example) and equally, the sheer variability of purity which is not within the realms of a side-product nor does the instrumental analysis suggest it being impure but rather cut, often several times.


It's another 'guess the mystery powder' game.

*Other suppliers of pilot-scale reactors are also available. I affirm that I do not and have never worked with or for Büchiglas or any associated companies nor renumerated in any way for using this example. I declare no conflict of interest.
 
It's another 'guess the mystery powder' game.

*Other suppliers of pilot-scale reactors are also available. I affirm that I do not and have never worked with or for Büchiglas or any associated companies nor renumerated in any way for using this example. I declare no conflict of interest.


LOL!
Though bromination is not something one should aspire to do in a shared kitchen, even if equipped with ILVE Nostalgie II 30 in Range Hood, Büchiglas pilot reactors seem like a bit of an overkill to recreate any of the first generation synthetic cathinones unless one is a type of chemist that would require a Bugatti to drive to a local drugstore to pick up a bottle of distilled water. :)
If I remember correctly, when I joined this forum in 2012, mephedrone/methylone synthesis required about 24 steps from unscheduled precursors, but it has been greatly simplified since then. I don't think this forum looks kindly at such sort of discussions. There are other forums for that.

I mean no offence, but the article you quoted comes across as somewhat dated "publish or perish" example of academical self-promotion with a nod to the official drug policy. Akin to the writings of the day declaring MDMA turning one's brain into a sponge. There has been a more recent research into 4-MMC dealing with long-term effects on memory and cognition and the researchers greatly disagreed.

The post-ban 4-MMC that was available on the dark net 2012-2018 almost always turned out to be adulterated 3-MMC+. But I kept hearing from a few people with whom I indulged a few times into the real thing back in the day, that something very close, but not quite exactly the same is still being manufactured. Mind these people are not kids who spoon substances, but mature people who might sample something once a very long while for old times sake. And then there all these ongoing discussions how MDMA produced from PMK is not quite like the moly that used to be made from Sassafras.

So bidding my respect to academic discussions that frequented this forum in at the dawn of its alchemist past and considering that Walter White's thesis was in crystallography, I felt like spinning something plausible enough to make an entertaining read! :)
 
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Well, it's more a case that AFAIK Büchiglas allows the application of the double-blind/double-block safety interlock. Safety is a culture as well as a process and if people insist on doing damned stupid things, at least I tell them not to do it in a damned stupid way. Physically padlocking an easily inserted blind flange AND have an easily visible way to check (as those engaged in oversight should always do), is safer IF implemented is about as far as one can practically go with batch processes. Just look at the Phillips 66 Company explosion back in 1989. They HAD a protocol, even bragged about it... then didn't follow it and *BOOM*.

Always plan for the worst case scenario.

Oviously batch reactions are inherently more dangerous than continuous flow reactions. If you look back, I posited that the Chinese manufacturers of 'moonrock' MDMA may use a continuous flow reaction. IF they are indeed forming a denser crystaline fomation (anhydrous?) then given the visible voids, may suggest supercritical CO2 is the solvent - but not my field, not even on my farm really. More your thing, I expect. It would be nice if someone more able could either agree or equally disagree. I am entirely data-driven and whenever possible provide hyperlinks to the papers I base my position on. But it's healthy to be wrong at least some of the time. I don't even want a person to think it true just because I said it - I show my workings and ask people to check; I am probably more fallible than most people so by dint of datamining, I try to remediate that deficit.

But rules are written in blood.

Don't forget, I'm based in the UK so the Trevor Kletz book 'What Went Wrong? Case Histories of Process Plant Disasters' (first published 1985, based on 1970s work) was required reading by those studying chemical engineering which I have mentioned is a seperate specialism, so one I only have a farily basic understanding of. I evoked the T2 disaster of a CLASSIC example of two geniuses thinking it it's fine at bench-scale, it's fine in multi-tonnne batches. Also Serveso happened in my lifetime and shaped my understanding of how failure to analyse the entire system coupled with an unknown (thermal runaway) lead to a terrible disaster.

Again, I've made no secret of my triad of rules surrounding the design of novel ligands but the UKs frankly crazy 'Novel Psychoactive Substances Act' is so, so very vague that I can't even tinker.

Rule 1 - MUST be inherently non-toxic
Rule 2 - MUST abide by all local laws
Rule 3 - MUST be pleasurable but not produce physical dependence

The 'Chinese way' was just my little joke. Using semi-skilled workers when multiple hazards are present is totally insane. But it does seem that the Chinese government doesn't look too hard at businesses within any of it's freeports on the basis that technically it does not enter China itself. I'm told Shanghai was the capital for such enterprises but in recent years, another five freeport zones have also become hubs.

I try to drill into people to read, understand and follow the MSDS as those things get updated, generally after something bad. So check every time. Safety culture, if you will.

I don't play the 'mystery powder' game but GIGO so using Occam's razor, I suggested that adulterants were at least partly to blame. Certainly with that 'purple moonrock' ring halogenation is why it was purple. But as I mentioned at the time, people do seem to ascribe all manner of crazy things when there are perfecly logical and easily demonstrable explainations.

We can all say 'well, in 1988 the ORIGINAL Doves (also known as 'sitting ducks') were AWESOME' and many people imbued them with all manner of magical powers when in truth they were white as it should be and the makers had at least some QC so that it was 125mg per pill ± 1mg. That's within pharmacutical limits in many nations. HOWEVER, at £20, I suspect people just believed them better as like a first love, we tend look back through rose-tinted glasses.

You cannot evoke a time and a place with just a ligand. Did we dance like idiots? Yes we did. Did we swear everlasting love to total strangers? Yes we did. Can we recreate that one loci? No, no we cannot.
 
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Again, I've made no secret of my triad of rules surrounding the design of novel ligands but the UKs frankly crazy 'Novel Psychoactive Substances Act' is so, so very vague that I can't even tinker.

Rule 1 - MUST be inherently non-toxic
Rule 2 - MUST abide by all local laws
Rule 3 - MUST be pleasurable but not produce physical dependence



You can still tinker - as long as you don't do it as your main line of work, don't do it for profit and are very discreet. It's just that some of the desirable lab equipment might be out of reach or very hard to justify for what amounts to a hobbie. But (noting the risks you've mentioned) assembling your own process systems and even designing your own PIDs for self-tuned gear, that are more accurate than what on can buy from the market, can be a lot of fun, if you are into all of those things.
 
very interesting read, I didn't know about Ritonavir.

I only started taking 4mmc post uk ban but have had some supposedly "pre-ban" 4mmc, to my novice eyes it seemed a bit mellowed and actually less potent than the newer stuff that's doing the round.

do you know what's change, have any insider info? or are you speculating/asking people what they think?
I was speculating. I think I might have acquired ~6 samples between 2012-2018. I personally analyzed them and none of them were pure 4-mmc. I still have real 3-mmc, which I might use once or twice a year when I go to a live concert which truly benefits from it and to savor the nuances in difference between what it does for music appreciation vs. being sober vs. BDO vs. alcohol.

I took 4-mmc less than 10 times both pre-ban and post-ban(which it was not!). Unlike with methylone, I never found it fiendish - none of the times when I took it, I felt the slightest urge to redose. Back in 2010, when the glow subsided, I would be content and ready to fall asleep without benzos.

I recognize that mephedrone was a social problem in UK when it got banned and has been an ongoing national disaster in Russia for the last 12 years. But thinking back to how I felt 4 times when I took the pre-ban stuff in 2010 (when I didn't appreciate it, because I screwed up my serotonin balance overindulging in methylone, which at that time I naively considered safe), I came to think of it as a kind of unnecessary luxury that would be nice to have around to celebrate very special occasions, like major personal accomplishments.
 
How much does a GC-MS/NMR pair cost these days?
You nailed my problem. Given that common supplements such as pramiracetam are now sold with an explicit disclosure of no accountability, I would like to be able to run NMR on every order of supplements that I buy.
 
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The condition that I described has affected many successful pharmacological and chemicals commercial products. It is a case of a nascent branch in chemistry, a situation exceptionally rare in modern science. A lot has been theorized about pre-ban 4-mmc. Most theories focused on a single manufacturer using a process which created a particular mix of related products with a commonly recognized set of desired recreational effects. Once the drug stopped being produced in China due to being banned first in UK, then in US, followed by most of the West, the production has migrated to Russia. How it developed there is a story of its own. It was a progression from point distribution to franchising of development kits. You might want to look up Hydra if you are interested in the detail. Mephedrone production and law enforcement are integrated entities in Russia due to its current political structure. The important part that led me to the theory that I proposed above is the following. In chemical stereometry (Dextro/Levo,) precursors may define the resulting enantiomers or a mix of those. The current theory of evolving nucleonic polymorphism (Particular cristal form formation) is based on the fact that each cristal lettuce type structure is associated with an energy state, kind of like an electron energy state association with its orbital subshell. The differences in energy states are extremely minute. We theorized that a tiny particle of a more stable lettice form may cause transition of a less stable form into the lettice form of the initiating particle. But what causes a new form particle immerge in the first place? We don't know that. It might be something either in the precursors or in external environment. It might be a substance of a single isomer or a presence of particular combination of unrelated polymorphs of other substances. It might be a tiny amount of some chemically active compound or a miniscule compound/particular compound combination acting as a catalyst. We cannot exclude possibilities of some unknown type of Oscillating Reaction (look up water, copper(II) sulfate (CuSO_4), and citric acid). We cannot even rule out an esoteric energy transfer co-factors such as Wheeler-Feynman Absorber Theory which involved subatomic particles travelling back in times. I know how loony it might sound to someone without a proper background, but depending on your mind set, you might want to look up these concepts - I am not making them up. Like I said, - this a nescient area of crystallography, where theories border on lunacy or science fiction. A current prevailing thought that the pre-ban Mephedrone feel of a particular cocaine-MDMA induced state was due to some adulterants in solvents or precursors is probably right. But given how frequently Disappearing Polymorphism occurs - we might have a case here. Remember - one of the evils or gifts of 4-MMC (depending on how you think about it) is that unlike with MDMA, you could redose for a very long time without the loss of desired effects. To me this signals that the perceived difference between modern and pre-ban mephedrone is not the MDMA type loss of magic caused by tolerance. Unfortunately, my collection of pre-ban samples does not include 4-mmc and even if it did, I don't have the licence which would grant me access to the equipment required to compare the crystal structures.
You're my type of guy..You think outside of the box.
 
You nailed my problem. Given that common supplements such as pramiracetam are now sold with an explicit disclosure of no accountability, I would like to be able to run NMR on every order of supplements that I buy.

If it's just a food supplment, a quite legal (?) mixture, pay a lab. They need not read that whole secret/proprietary shite. Ask how much you value your own life. I note competition is now fierce and it's price per hour. So I would start with a GC and work backwards based on what you know and the MW of the 'likely suspects'. Be that Sherlock Holmes. I got some god awful sets from China where I had to X compress or expand the set and slide them over the predicted values. I think I got quite good at it but it's not a trick I've ever heard of or seen written down. I got a set, was simply asked 'what is this' and as always, I did my best, explained how I did it and UNDERLINED the fact that physically manipulating a set to make if fit is not a recognized methodology.

But madness that the Chinese either have awul kit and/or awful instrumentalists and/or save money by not calibrating.

I THINK the latter if only because they seemed PROUD to have such technology. They still use X-ray crystalography which is at once amazing (you get abosolute configuration in one go) and scary, given how they don't seem to look after their kit or indeed their staff. I mean, Rosalind Franklin didn't get the Nobel Prize for nailing what DNA was because she died -not even mentioned because James Watson was an awful person as so many of the Nobel Laureates were and are. Just WHO 'discovered' pennicilin? Clearly a huge team effort and not a word in the speeches.

I used the solvent peak as that was on the paper and had a sort of ratio between what it IS and what the junk in China spat out. If they remove the solvent peak, good luck! Tentitive is still better than unknown, I suppose.
 
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You may be right. If true getting the original form back may be a simple matter of using a similar compound at a certain point in the synth to help the crystallization process along.

This is probably just a not well understood area of science at this time. Most of the stuff in nature most likely went through a similar process until the forms we see in nature today became stable. Most likely the labs churning out stuff in China released so much stuff into the atmosphere that by the time another lab attempted it the entire planet was already contaminated by the new man-made substance. Which makes me wonder just how much we're screwing up the natural environment with all the crap we've been polluting the planet with for the last 100-200 years at mass scale.

For example, we know the common types of birth control on the market are having far reaching effects because the stuff has ended up in the water supply. But good luck trying to convince half of the population that we need to pull it off the market and that they should change their lifestyles for the greater good at this point. Removing it from the market would provoke the same reaction you get out of gun folks if you tried to yank firearms and ammo out of the market. They would see it as a personal attack on their freedom. So we all just have to live with the fact that all the water is now contaminated and will continue to get more contaminated as more and more of that stuff is pissed out into the world (it isn't just birth control of course, I'm just using it as an example of a hot-button substance).

There is also the issue that this has been used to game patent law for many decades already. That was already being done in the 80s-90s. Where published processes would result in a different form with multiple forms patented. That way a company could have exclusive rights to sell form 1 and then when the patent expired and others tried to bring form 1 to market they could not produce anything but form 2. Which the original company also held a patent on but they hadn't sold form 2 themselves. This has gone to court multiple times in the past and the patent holder always won. This effectively gives you 10-30 year extension on the patent. Since by the time anyone can legally sell form 1 it has become impossible to produce it (at least with known routes).

I'm sure a lot of others have figured this out but it's worth saying again: If anything interesting comes on to the market that you really like it's a good idea to buy and store 1-2 lifetime supplies of the chemical and keep it in stable conditions. Since you may never ever get a chance to purchase it again. 4-mmc is just one of many substances that have either vanished from the market all together or the "post-ban" version was very different from the original batches going around. Never mind the price hike that comes once a chemical gains legal attention (e.g. $15 a gram substance suddenly sold for $50+ a gram then once fully illegal $100+ a gram for very inferior product).

This thread makes me wonder if stuffmonger's yellow PV might have simply been a different form of that chemical. I don't think we ever got to the bottom of that "super sexy fun time" process he'd come up with in his mad scientist amateur lab in the jungle. I also wonder if this is related to fungi interacting with the new man-made chemicals. Perhaps a fungus we haven't detected yet is in a symbiotic relationship with these new man-made chemicals. Once a new chemical is in the environment a fungus may mutate to co-exist with it. For whatever reason the fungus prefers and/or causes the chemical to change forms. Fungi makes up the bulk of the mass on our planet and is by far the largest organism living on the planet. So it wouldn't surprise me if it had something to do with it. This could explain why there is a delay and then once the initial time passes it becomes harder and harder to produce the original form.
 
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Full purity panel everages $750.

I said - just get the GC and work backwards - know the MW of the likely componants and I bet it's simple. These people riff on a few known (or derivable) things. If there IS a sneaky peak and you can't figure it, get THAT GC-MSed and that gives enough. Measure the quantitative ratios of the peaks. That's all someone carrying out qualitative analysis will be doing.

I know what junk is out there because I do a lot of HR work with several national and international HR agencies and you will be ever so surprised... I get handed sets and asked 'what this'. So I have seen some chilling sights which I have mentioned elsewhere.

There is a Chinese proverb 能骗就骗 (If you can cheat, cheat) so I HOPE it gets fed back and end users learn to distrust the altrusim of drug dealers quite as much as they should.
 
You cannot GCMS and identify presence of heavy metals. For basic disqualification I do my own melting point tests. But for more serious analysis I would have to pay up. Which with supplement vendors shifting the burden of COA to consumers I might need to start doing. But not everything is stable even in a reduced oxygen atmosphere in a freezer when bought in the amounts to last next 10 years so that a $750 per a single supplement charge is palatable . And if heavy metals are found, it means that I have to look for another vendor and repeat the test. And even if a small sample passes ICP-MS, there no guarantee that the vendor will supply the same batch of material when I place an order for the amount to last me next 10 years. And let's say today I take Bromantane, because I don't think that 9-Me-BC is safe enough, but in 3 years something that is safe enough by my standards is developed - then I am stuck with 7 years worth of unused Bromantane. And all of this is applicable to 15-20 supplements. So yah, I wish I had an access to the equipment which I cannot buy and don't have an access to, because I don't work in chemical or pharmaceutical industries, but have personal interests/curiosities/hobbies tied to them. But we have drifted from the subject.
I could technically synch mephedrone/methylone myself today. But I am not interested in doing illegal and dangerous stuff for something that I might take maybe once every two years. So yeah, I am feel sorry that it seems to be gone from the marketplace even though I am not a user. I wish though that some of the relevant testing equipment went down in price as quickly as 3D printers did so that I could test my supplements.
 
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there no guarantee that the vendor will supply the same batch of material when I place an order for the amount to last me next 10 years.
I got screwed pretty badly once by a vendor I was ordering MXE from. It was quality stuff. Until I placed that large order and he sent me a bag of inert powder.
 
You cannot GCMS and identify presence of heavy metals.

Agreed. They would likely be insoluble in the carrier solvent. But I suppose one could use that to isolate those metal ions and then use other methdologies to characterize the ions. Is that how it is done?
 
Agreed. They would likely be insoluble in the carrier solvent. But I suppose one could use that to isolate those metal ions and then use other methdologies to characterize the ions. Is that how it is done?
The gold standard is a Full Purity Panel that can cost $700–$1,200 and includes ICP-MS (Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry) for heavy metals, HPLC-UV (High-Performance Liquid Chromatography) or LC-MS for cross-contamination embedded substances (from the same Büchiglas reactor that you've suggested used to produce different products. I use different lab glassware for things that I apply to my skin vs. things that I swallow), HS-GC-MS (Headspace Gas Chromatography) for residual solvents.
But one could bring the cost down a bit by first ruling out outright scams by performing his own melting point tests and then ordering ICP-MS ($200), HPLC-UV($250) and GC-MS($200). Still - $650.
There is a way to save a bit more, depending on a lab. If you have multiple supplements from the same vendor, some labs allow "composite testing" where they mix small amounts of each to screen for metals in one go. If it comes back clean, the whole batch is likely fine. If it's dirty, you then test individually to find the culprit. But that logic would work if you know for sure that you are buying from the actual manufacturer vs reseller. And you would be assuming that if they have multiple reactors, they still batch their production in some sort of orderly logical fashion to lower cross-contamination.
But one still has bulk cold storage/ better new supplements making it to market problem. That's the real cost of bio-hacking / hobby chemistry if you don't have a direct access to analytical equipment. Respectable vendors like Ceretropics used to bear the cost for their customers, but today many supplements vendors don't do it anymore or supply fake COAs when asked.
None of this applied to Research Chemicals, but RC abusers (no offense, to each his own, I respect everybody's personal choices) don't make health their first prerogative. As a very infrequent RC user and a life-long biohacker I do.
 
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