arrall
Bluelight Crew
I wonder what he’s up to nowadays….
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Help! Need help remembering THE MOST OBSCURE DRUG YOU NEVER HEARD OF
- Thread starter 777iLLucidDreamer777
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Didgital
Bluelight Crew
I'm not sure? It seems his account has long been disabled? At least I can't tag his account... Maybe cuz it was old system. Says he hasn't been around since 2020.
I did notice something a bit odd about the DOTFM-NDEPA wiki page, the only reference is the same paper that Hans alluded to. Which is from 1999 actually. So there was evidence wayyyy before his 2014 post that NDEPAS were at least QSAR calculated and thought of. There doesn't seem to be any later publications until Hans published his reports, and there hasn't been anything since either. I wonder, if Hans was a later student of the same research group or maybe the same university... (Institute of Pharmacy, University of Tu»bingen, Auf der Morgenstelle 8, 72076 Tu»bingen, Germany)
We've made all sorts of things since then, so I do find it curious, that since then, no one has published anything regarding the synthesis of such things. It's possible there has, but possibly I'm not searching effectively, but maybe thats because my search terms are all in english and not german.
My chemistry skills have uhhhhh certainly increased since I read his original post, it should not be a difficult synthesis at all.. About as easy as making an Nbome...
Just curious and wondering a lot of things.
Nice to see ya @arrall
MedicinalUser247
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Hmm... Well, if you wanted to look for a drug that was rare what would you be looking for ? What do you think you would want to try so bad ?
Bagseed
Bluelighter
Yup its a thing.
Trifluoromethyl at 4 position of DOx with the strange side chain that would make half of the LSD molecule. Not commercially available, and doubtfully ever taken by humans. The NDEPA stands for N-(N,N-diethylpropylamide)
DOTFM-NDEPA - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
yeah I knew it would be something like that, still your post was pretty funny in general :D
that sounds actually interesting! paper cited on wiki is from 2025 so very recent, and not a project that has been stalled since 2013 or something!
JRT (drug) - Wikipedia
Didgital
Bluelight Crew
Yeah JRT and IsoDMT and all the isotryptamines/lysergamides are all relatively new. They're a hot topic currently in pharmacological circles because they promote neuroplasticity and "healing" to the brain without producing any sort of psychedelic or psychoactive effects. I'm not really on that wagon personally. But they may have their uses. I'm hopeful.
Bagseed
Bluelighter
I think it makes total sense to develop something like that for people who need healing but do not want to trip out or who really shouldn't like those with schizophrenia. "Real psychedelics" will be still around to use I'm sure. Might be a long while before any medical trials though.
Didgital
Bluelight Crew
Very true. I totally encourage their creation and subsequent research on them because we are always going to need more effective medicines. I also mentioned earlier, about another entirely new class of compounds where the indole ring has been replaced with an indolizine ring. In this case the Nitrogen has been moved to the 7a-1a connecting spot. In tryptamines and isotryptamines there is a carbon at that spot. They're also suspected to be non hallucinogenic psychoplastogens. An example being: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TACT908
I'm in contact with it's patent holder, Matthew Baggot though it's been a couple years since our last communication.. I'm going to send him an email and maybe get his thoughts on the potential utility of these really novel structures coming out.
Then there's a separate class of indolizine deriviatives where the nitrogen is not at 7a-1a spot but the 3a-4a spot. for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1Z2MAP1O
It really is quite an interesting time for psychedelic research and especially for people studying non psychedelic psychoplastogens. I just wonder... what is the benefit of enhanced neuroplasticity, if it's not really being applied to anything. I'm not a neuroscientist or a pharmacologist, but it's been described to me that you need something with neuroplasticity to actually induce long term stable changes in the brain. IE; that taking a psychoplastogen alone increases new dendritic pathways, but they're temporary if not used frequently. Again, I'm a total newb when it comes to such stuff. Just fascinated by how altering the structures alters interactions with receptors and subsequent biophysical cascades, tho I have to admit, I do like to experience them first hand, and psychoactive ones are pretty easy to compare from a personal view point.
Ive talked to Paul Daley a few times about things that are sort of in the middle. Things that are mildly psychoactive. that promote neuroplasticity. IPALT is one the ASRI is pretty excited about.
iPALT - Wikipedia
TheLightBringer
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What was the street name if you can remember?
Assuming these serotonin-active "psychoplastogens" which are not psychedelic actually exist, I wonder what subjective effects they produce? Or are they even psychoactive at all?
I also wonder if not-very psychedelic things like ARIADNE are really just psychedelics with a low ceiling of effects, a kind of thing that never gets stronger than a "mini dose". In which case, perhaps these things a bit overrated in so far as one can get similar effects from a long list of psychedelics by simply choosing a low dose. Of course a hard ceiling "eliminates abuse potential" I guess.
I also wonder if not-very psychedelic things like ARIADNE are really just psychedelics with a low ceiling of effects, a kind of thing that never gets stronger than a "mini dose". In which case, perhaps these things a bit overrated in so far as one can get similar effects from a long list of psychedelics by simply choosing a low dose. Of course a hard ceiling "eliminates abuse potential" I guess.
@Didgital Honestly the discourse you, Arrall and a few others had makes me want to keep this thread up, while the original post was a bit whacked out trying to find something that I also do not believe exists, there are two things I imagine folks could learn from this thread:
- Memory is a far more fragile thing than any of us would like to admit, as OP has likely demonstrated here.
- SAR exploration (such as what Hans Meyer was up to) is a delicate, unpredictable thing that is fascinating but requires a lot of care. Also, who we view as the first to come upon a compound rarely is, such as you pointing out the paper from 1999.
Didgital
Bluelight Crew
Cannot speak from personal experience but FOAF did make a small amount, and while they only took 25mg, I remember them saying it wasn't psychedelic, but it was active somehow. And you absolutely right, even Sasha would say psychedelic dosage of a lot of these things are TBD. But are they worthwhile to explore? He also thought that the more potent a drug was, the less metabolite are going to be floating around, and it's likely to be safer. We've obviously determined that that is not necessarily true. Anyway it was a reason he didn't explore a lot of things. I still think lophophine probably active, just not at the doses he tried. I could very well be wrong.
I do agree, there was some good discussion, and not everyone knows that hey there actually could be a weird LSD-Nbome type thing so it could be informative to people just getting into SAR etc..
Keep it up if ya like. It's certainly deviated way off the original topic.. which... I do think was pretty nonsensical to begin with.
(I had a dream about a drug, what is it, I know it exists because I've obsessed about it) = ok dude..
Featherfall
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Just generally seems a fuck ton of basic structures have not been assayed, just with tge basic 2 psychadelic structures alone, have still so much left which is crazy to me. The tryptamines in 20 years are gonna be silly
Didgital
Bluelight Crew
So were actually wayyyy beyond the SAR of sasha's day. Now we don't always make new drugs based off existing structures. With the advent of mapping out actual receptor structures, ai, and molecular scaffolding, we predict new drugs based off receptor shape itself. We can predict new structures that we know will likely interact with the receptor how we want, and come up with structures that don't resemble typical known structures.
Tryptamines themselves yeah there's a lot, but there is a finite number. You should check out this patent by Wallach, he's at the forefront of novel tryptamines currently IMO.
Here is the link to his patent, not sure why i can't see full text, but it is EXTENSIVE, maybe more so than Tihkal..
I believe theres over 200 fluorinated tryptamines he made.
If anyone deserves IP/patent, it's wallach.
AutoTripper
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Once Elon’s first grand dream may come to pass, before relocating at least a sect of the human species to Mars, of Digitilly Integrated consciousnesses more the wiser he insists, i.e. integrated with AI and each other like online always…
I can still always have see our drugs being delivered digitally. It’s totally not slightly far fetched too just hasn’t arrived been announced been experienced, yet but maybe in 10 years seriously depending what may be in time.
I can still always have see our drugs being delivered digitally. It’s totally not slightly far fetched too just hasn’t arrived been announced been experienced, yet but maybe in 10 years seriously depending what may be in time.
TheLightBringer
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Please post link, sounds really interesting
I think he's talking about:
Featherfall
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fair, that makes sense, though shulgins way always seemed funnest to me lol, just fucking around adding some atoms here or there on a structure. But receptor mapping via specialised software is probably wayyyyy more efficent in discovering interesting synthesis targets.
I'm not convinced the new way of discovering novel compounds is really better. Once any of these things has been synthesized, it needs to be evaluated, and I don't trust in-vitro assays or animal models to provide the necessary details to inform further investigations. Not by a long-shot. I don't doubt that there is some informal human evaluation going on among the researchers and/or their grad students, but I don't see signs that anyone is really systematically collecting and using this kind of information to guide search for new structures.
Don't get me wrong. The Nichols lab for example has put out a lot of novel and highly potent stuff, but were any of his drugs actually better for humans than the drugs from the Shulgin era, or the classics? I mean I know the (D)Flys and 2C-X-NBXX have their fans, but are any of these really better drugs than what came before? Judging by the alarming number of fatalities that occurred when a few of these entered wide circulation, I have serious doubts.
Maybe I'm just pessimistic? After all, the vast majority of these things haven't been properly tasted at all, and I would say that such work needs to be done if anyone is interested in furthering actual psychedelic development as opposed to developing things which have pharmaceutical market potential or whatever but suck in practice. This is a huge amount of work which is still very difficult to do in practice given the legal and "ethical" issues involved.
BTW, I had an extremely vivid dream last night in which I acquired a substantial quantity (at least 1g) of some 2C-TFM (an obscure drug I've yet to try) and had a fantastic time after taking 4 mg. The colors were so amazing. I kept wanting to describe it as neon psychedelic candy. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll actually get to try it some day, lol.
Don't get me wrong. The Nichols lab for example has put out a lot of novel and highly potent stuff, but were any of his drugs actually better for humans than the drugs from the Shulgin era, or the classics? I mean I know the (D)Flys and 2C-X-NBXX have their fans, but are any of these really better drugs than what came before? Judging by the alarming number of fatalities that occurred when a few of these entered wide circulation, I have serious doubts.
Maybe I'm just pessimistic? After all, the vast majority of these things haven't been properly tasted at all, and I would say that such work needs to be done if anyone is interested in furthering actual psychedelic development as opposed to developing things which have pharmaceutical market potential or whatever but suck in practice. This is a huge amount of work which is still very difficult to do in practice given the legal and "ethical" issues involved.
BTW, I had an extremely vivid dream last night in which I acquired a substantial quantity (at least 1g) of some 2C-TFM (an obscure drug I've yet to try) and had a fantastic time after taking 4 mg. The colors were so amazing. I kept wanting to describe it as neon psychedelic candy. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll actually get to try it some day, lol.
Need to find a better way for purification, or get the more expensive reagent which can allegedly get the trifluoromethylation to completion.