Health Making Ayahausca

[scabbard]

I'm interested in making ayahausa. I was planning on using DMT and Syrian Rue. I have a few questions:

1. I have regular NN-DMT in powdered form. I've never actually tried DMT before, so I don't know much about it. With 5MeO-DMT, I know that it can be bound with different acids, e.g. 5MeO-DMT fumarate being bound with fumaric acid or 5MeO-DMT HCl are both less potent per unit mass compared with freebase 5MeO-DMT. Is standard powdered NN-DMT typically bound with an acid, and if so are there different acids that it could be bound with, thus changing the potency and the therefore the amount I would need to for making ayahuasca? I got this from a friend a while back, and all I know is that it's regular NN-DMT that most people would smoke from a pipe.

2. I am looking for recommendations on dosage. How much Syrian Rue and how much powdered DMT should I use for a "standard" dose?

3. Should I expect vomiting, or does that only come with the typical sludgy ayahuasca brews that you drink?

4. Do I need to take the MAOI prior to taking the DMT so that it's onboard in my system to prevent the breakdown of the DMT in my gut when I take it, or should I take them simultaneously?

5. I know there are many contraindicated foods associated with MAOI's. How long before and after the trip will I need to adhere to those dietary guidelines to prevent medical risks?

6. Are there different types of Syrian Rue with different potencies/purities/amounts of harmala alkaloids/MAOI's or is it all the same, and is there a good place that anyone here can recommend for purchasing it in the U.S.?

7. After taking the concoction, how long will the MAOI effects persist in my body? E.g., if I do mushrooms a week later, will the trip be affected by the presence of the MAOI taken the week prior? Is there anything I should be careful of ingesting after the journey, or before, and if so, what substances, and for how long before/after the experience should I use caution?

8. I know that the use of 5MeO-DMT is a no go with MAOI's. Is that true if I use it after taking an MAOI, before, or both, and if so, what period of time do I need to place in between the two events?

That's about all the questions I can think of. Any other recommendations for making this myself would be greatly appreciated. I've been using mushrooms routinely for somatic/energetic therapy, and I figured I'd try Aya as well. Is it at all comparable to mushrooms or is it a fairly different experience? I'm interested in the purge, particularly because I find that I hold a lot of tension in my gut, and conversely, when I'm able to feel there, my experience is much more balanced and I have a greater connection to the blocked emotions that are stored there.

 

[scabbard]

No takers?

 

[MedicinalUser247]

Hope you got a good Air-Freshener. Boiling that stuff makes the whole house smell like shit.

 

[Didgital]

I got you.

1) standard DMT is usually encountered as a water insoluble freebase. Freebases are not bound by an acid, and therefore have relatively low boiling point (ideal for smoking/vaping). Very easy way to test this is to sprinkle a tiny amount on a drop of water. If it floats, its the freebase. Freebases can range in color from white to red. It also melts at low temps 47-64c, while salts (almost always white ime) will not change at that temp, eventually they burn.

My personal recommendation is to dissolve the freebase dmt in minimal amount of vinegar which is essentially dilute acetic acid. The DMT reacts with the acetic acid to make DMT-Acetate which IS water soluble and therefore much more bioavailable. In theory, freebase DMT would form a salt with gasreic acids, but there are plenty of reports of people not having effects trying to eat the freebase. It tastes terrible, but take a quick shot, swallow, and wash down w water.

2) the syrian rue dosage never really changes. You want the optimal dose to fully inhibit MAO, without going overboard (side effects). Erowid lists MAOI dosage of the seeds as 3-6g. Ive never taken more than 3.5g and have had great success everytime. (i am 65kg
/male). What is really going to affect the experience is DMT dosage.
I generally take 100mg, but a lot of people think i am crazy for doing so. I would say a lighter dose is 30mg. Average is prolly 50mg. Anything over 75mg is considered strong.

3) while the nausea/puking is probably a lot less than taking traditional ayahuasca, i still always expect some form of "purging" especially with my first round in a series of sessions. If i take my rue/dmt everyday, the first day i am def noticing physical effects. the 2nd day is less, 3rd day less, 4th day i get very little at all. The same goes for ayahuasca.

4) i always take my rue tea about 20 minutes before ingesting the DMT, but im not sure it really matters. With ayauhuasca, the DMT and MAOi are taken simultaneously.

5) i do not follow any strict diet but i generally eat healthy and natural foods leading up to the experience. I avoid pharmaceuticals, heavily processed foods, and iodozed salt for at least 4 days ahead of the experience. Most importantly is avoiding drugs that stay in your system for a long time. MAO is basically a defense mechamism, so if you lose MAO when you are on other drugs, those drugs can immediately become stronger and more dangerous. You do need to be aware of whats in your body ahead of time. A lot of wooks/neo-spiritualists argue strict diet is essential but ive personnally eaten pizza and beer a half an hour before before drinking rue with zero problems. The tribe i learned from would actually say what you eat AFTER taking ayahuasca is equally if not more important. The yachaks (one who knows) frequently reccomend avoiding; pork, hot pepper, alcohol, and sex after a ceremony. This is more to seal the experience inside you, than it is to be safe*

6) While there probably is genetic variation/strains, very very little studies have been done on this. Rue is seen as pretty consistent across the board.

7) generally speaking, the MAOI is active for 8 hrs. Meaning as soon as the MAOi wears off, youre technically safe to consume other drugs/foods which youve been avoiding. Id play it safe and wait a few days, especially if youve been taking the MAOi over several days.

8) see number #7. Youre really only in danger when you actively have the MAOI in your system. The main reason to not jump into another heavy experience is to give yourself time to process what happened....


..is it comparable to mushrooms? Yes and no. You'll just have to find out for yourself. If youve never taken DMT orally... i would start slow.

My credentials: im a scientist/chemist who lived with Kichwa tribe in amazonian ecuador for 6 months. For 2 weeks i lived on a midwife center in the jungle where i traditionally prepared enough ayahuasca for 200 ppl. They asked me to stay.

I took the knowledge back to my country and have since incorporated syrian rue as a more sustainable option to Bannisterious cappi.

Ive also taken most psychedelics under the sun.

 

[scabbard]

Thank you @Didgital for the thorough response, I really appreciate it. Great information.

Is the purpose of dissolving the freebase DMT in vinegar to increase bioavailability, over simply putting 30mg in a pill capsule and popping it, or is the lack of water solubility of freebase DMT a potential issue for allowing it to be digested at all (i.e. you mentioned some people don't experience effects from taking it orally, even with an MAOI I'm assuming)? My concern is that a typical "light" dose of DMT (~30mg) could be heavy if the bioavailability is increased in comparison to how most people ingest it (i.e. I'm assuming without vinegar).

Is there anything I need to do to the Rue seeds (grind them, etc.) or can I eat them as is?

Given that it'll be my first time trying this, and trying DMT in general, after taking the Rue, could I take a small dose (~20mg) of DMT, and then if I don't feel anything, redose maybe 10mg at a time every 45 minutes until I reach a desired effect?

 

[iom]

This is a bit pedantic, but in my opinion Rue + DMT is not ayahuasca. The caapi has a very different alkaloid profile with qualitatively different (and IMO superior) effects. This doesn't mean that Rue + DMT is not worth trying on its own, just that it's not ayahusaca, which is the name of the vine after all.

Another thing is that harmaline, which is dominant in Rue, is a pretty heavy sedative which doesn't contribute much of anything desirable for most people to the experience, except for the MAOI properties of course, which are there even in "lighter" doses. In contrast, the ayahuasca vine can produce compelling dream-sequence-like trips on its own without DMT, and there is a wider range of effects possible by varying either the amount of vine or amount of DMT in the preparation. This of course merely scratches the surface of the wide range of possible admixtures that can be combine with the vine in traditional settings.

Having said that, I don't want to minimize the issue of sustainability mentioned by ddigital. When I first tried ayahuasca back in 2000, I don't believe it was anywhere near as popular in the USA and Europe as it is today, nor was there nearly as much ayahuasca tourism in South America. Much like peyote, good quality ayahuasca vine requires decades to grow. I have some pieces in my collection that are extremely large, probably from plants around 50 years old. I haven't tried them, but my preparations using somewhat smaller but still thick vines have proved to be surprisingly potent.

I think ddigital's dose recommendations are pretty solid. If you want to start with a light experience (recommended), then 30 mg is a good target. When I made my first brew (which was also my first serotonergic psychedelic experience), I added the "10g Mimosa Hostilis" which was included as a free sample in my order to my 30g Psychotria Viridis (a pretty standard dose on its own). I seriously underestimated how strong the Mimosa was and probably took ~120 mg of DMT. I got utterly smashed and experienced hyperspatial reveries, total ego death, and time dilation by what felt like a factor of 1000. This occurred in a outdoor, public environment not conducive to this kind of heavy tripping. It was one hell of an initiation.

 

[scabbard]

This is a bit pedantic, but in my opinion Rue + DMT is not ayahuasca. The caapi has a very different alkaloid profile with qualitatively different (and IMO superior) effects. This doesn't mean that Rue + DMT is not worth trying on its own, just that it's not ayahusaca, which is the name of the vine after all.

Another thing is that harmaline, which is dominant in Rue, is a pretty heavy sedative which doesn't contribute much of anything desirable for most people to the experience, except for the MAOI properties of course, which are there even in "lighter" doses. In contrast, the ayahuasca vine can produce compelling dream-sequence-like trips on its own without DMT, and there is a wider range of effects possible by varying either the amount of vine or amount of DMT in the preparation. This of course merely scratches the surface of the wide range of possible admixtures that can be combine with the vine in traditional settings.

Having said that, I don't want to minimize the issue of sustainability mentioned by ddigital. When I first tried ayahuasca back in 2000, I don't believe it was anywhere near as popular in the USA and Europe as it is today, nor was there nearly as much ayahuasca tourism in South America. Much like peyote, good quality ayahuasca vine requires decades to grow. I have some pieces in my collection that are extremely large, probably from plants around 50 years old. I haven't tried them, but my preparations using somewhat smaller but still thick vines have proved to be surprisingly potent.

I think ddigital's dose recommendations are pretty solid. If you want to start with a light experience (recommended), then 30 mg is a good target. When I made my first brew (which was also my first serotonergic psychedelic experience), I added the "10g Mimosa Hostilis" which was included as a free sample in my order to my 30g Psychotria Viridis (a pretty standard dose on its own). I seriously underestimated how strong the Mimosa was and probably took ~120 mg of DMT. I got utterly smashed and experienced hyperspatial reveries, total ego death, and time dilation by what felt like a factor of 1000. This occurred in a outdoor, public environment not conducive to this kind of heavy tripping. It was one hell of an initiation.

I'm not sure how I ended up determining that Syrian Rue was an optimal source for the MAOI, but after doing some more reading I now realize that the Caapi vine is the traditional component that provides the MAOI in the Ayahuasca brew.

The nice thing about the Syrian Rue is that it's so simple, no cooking or preparation necessary. However, you mentioned that harmaline is a sedative, which I would prefer not to have. Is there something similar to the Caapi vine in terms of the effects profile that doesn't require extensive preparation? Does Caapi have a lower concentration of harmaline in comparison to that of Syrian Rue, with higher concentrations of other B-carbolines like harmine and THH?

 

[iom]

The nice thing about the Syrian Rue is that it's so simple, no cooking or preparation necessary. However, you mentioned that harmaline is a sedative, which I would prefer not to have. Is there something similar to the Caapi vine in terms of the effects profile that doesn't require extensive preparation? Does Caapi have a lower concentration of harmaline in comparison to that of Syrian Rue, with higher concentrations of other B-carbolines like harmine and THH?

As far as known plants, Syrian Rue is the most potent MAOI. If you want to avoid sedation with Syrian Rue, just keep the dose on the low side. Its MAOI effect is very strong. If what you are looking for is an oral DMT experience, then the 3.5g suggested by ddigital above is probably a good dose with minimal sedation.

Yes, caapi has proportionately more harmine. Caapi also has more THH, but the amount varies a lot between specimens. If you are looking for a more authentic "ayahuasca" experience, especially in so far as many traditional brews use more caapi than necessary for purely MAOI effect, then caapi is much better. That said, if you can somehow obtain harmine (and maybe THH) in pure chemical form, you can get a closer approximation using Syrian Rue while keeping the preparation simple and not contributing to over-harvesting of caapi vine.

 

[Esperighanto]

1. I have regular NN-DMT in powdered form. I've never actually tried DMT before, so I don't know much about it. With 5MeO-DMT, I know that it can be bound with different acids, e.g. 5MeO-DMT fumarate being bound with fumaric acid or 5MeO-DMT HCl are both less potent per unit mass compared with freebase 5MeO-DMT. Is standard powdered NN-DMT typically bound with an acid, and if so are there different acids that it could be bound with, thus changing the potency and the therefore the amount I would need to for making ayahuasca? I got this from a friend a while back, and all I know is that it's regular NN-DMT that most people would smoke from a pipe.

You're referring to a molecule existing as a free base vs a salt form here, and your N,N-DMT being in its freebase form is just fine. The moment it touches your stomach acid, it will begin a cycle of protanation that it would also have began if it was a salt form, it's irrelevant. What is relevant is calibrating your mg scale.

2. I am looking for recommendations on dosage. How much Syrian Rue and how much powdered DMT should I use for a "standard" dose?

Damn this is super subjective and I'm a notorious creature in this regard. I would say to increment in 750mg intervals of syrian rue until you feel something, should be between 1.5-3g that you notice something above baseline, then start eating DMT in either 10, 15, or 20 milligram intervals. I could easily eat in excess of a gram of N,N-DMT in a day while on a constant baseline of a third gram of harmaline, but I also know very experienced psychonauts who would struggle to put down 100mg of N,N-DMT in a day on a quarter as much harmaline, like I said it's exceptionally subjectively variant.

You should also play with harmaline vs harmine, people often prefer one over the other. I find harmine more tactile and prone to body load, harmaline is desireable even alongside LSD and psilocybin. Cutting some percentage of your final harmine-or-harmaline with tetrahydroharmine is also worthwhile and quite interesting.

3. Should I expect vomiting, or does that only come with the typical sludgy ayahuasca brews that you drink?

It's profoundly challenging. Thankfully, it sets the bar so high I've done shit now like lick crystal 2C-B off a table and just passed out directly into the trip.

I'm not sure how I ended up determining that Syrian Rue was an optimal source for the MAOI, but after doing some more reading I now realize that the Caapi vine is the traditional component that provides the MAOI in the Ayahuasca brew.

Caapi is definitely the top tier source for plant based harmalas in my opinion, syrian rue is pretty brutal.

4. Do I need to take the MAOI prior to taking the DMT so that it's onboard in my system to prevent the breakdown of the DMT in my gut when I take it, or should I take them simultaneously?

This is also a good thing to give subjective experimentation to. Take notes and systematize it, ayahuasca forms no tolerance so feel free to bomb this shit whenever you can fit it in to your life. I was a full time salaried software engineer figuring this out for myself about half a decade ago. The difference in waiting 20, 45, 60 or 80 minutes between administration of harmalas and serotonergic are all super profoundly meaningful, and they vary from substance to substance. Mushrooms care a lot less it seems, they just go into high gear, DMT and LSD really pay attention to the clock though.

5. I know there are many contraindicated foods associated with MAOI's. How long before and after the trip will I need to adhere to those dietary guidelines to prevent medical risks?

If you're just using harmala containing plants, you should be fine here. It's non-reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase that create "cheese poisoning" and the sort.

6. Are there different types of Syrian Rue with different potencies/purities/amounts of harmala alkaloids/MAOI's or is it all the same, and is there a good place that anyone here can recommend for purchasing it in the U.S.?

I've walked into middle eastern marketplaces up and down the east coast of the USA asking for esfand and they all kind of conceal a chuckle and sell me the rue. Reminds me of ordering coca tea or ephedra in spanish or chinese haha, except I have yet to even so much as attempt to speak any semitic language in my life. They're super neat though, hebrew/maltese/arabic in all of its forms are really beautiful and maybe if I spoke a language closer to the source, I could learn more about this, but I only learned about variances in coca plants by asking in Spanish, when you ask in English somehow all of a sudden they're all the same. Also don't look for one good source, look to refine your capacities to find sources from the inifitely sprawling macroorganismic complexes that are human cities and markets.

7. After taking the concoction, how long will the MAOI effects persist in my body? E.g., if I do mushrooms a week later, will the trip be affected by the presence of the MAOI taken the week prior? Is there anything I should be careful of ingesting after the journey, or before, and if so, what substances, and for how long before/after the experience should I use caution?

8. I know that the use of 5MeO-DMT is a no go with MAOI's. Is that true if I use it after taking an MAOI, before, or both, and if so, what period of time do I need to place in between the two events?

People will have a ton to say on this, and there's a lot of argument to be had but I always gave it about 4-5 days before using monoamine releasers or anything. There is a diet supplement out right now though, tesofensine, which lasts something like 17 days? That would obviously fuck up ayahuasca schedule real bad. All in all, just come as metabolically clean as you can and at the slightest sign of upset, hit the abort switch. I coadministered half a tenstrip, 300mg of instant release bupropion, 300mg of harmaline, some amount of tetrahydroharmine, and just barely made it. Don't fuck up like that, trust me.

I hope your pharmahuasca & ayahuasca experiences go well dude! Take it slow, take notes, drink water, don't be afraid to take breaks, and always come correct, psychedelics are one thing, MAOIs are another. They are a tier above as far as intensity goes.

..is it comparable to mushrooms? Yes and no. You'll just have to find out for yourself. If youve never taken DMT orally... i would start slow.

Yeah if mushrooms and acid are all somebody can compare it to, I always just advise they move slow too. Has there been any meaningfully well done articulation of the pharmahuasca experience in literature in your opinion? I've never read a report that even so much as resembles what I experience in very high dose pharmahuasca experiences.

My credentials: im a scientist/chemist who lived with Kichwa tribe in amazonian ecuador for 6 months. For 2 weeks i lived on a midwife center in the jungle where i traditionally prepared enough ayahuasca for 200 ppl. They asked me to stay.

I took the knowledge back to my country and have since incorporated syrian rue as a more sustainable option to Bannisterious cappi.

Ive also taken most psychedelics under the sun.

Damn Didg I was unaware of this background you have. Insanely impressive dude, I'm trying to catch up in some half-assed manner I suppose. I actually tried to count it out earlier, could only list 28 psychedelics I've used so far, I'm still catching up for sure. Do you build anywhere as meaningful of a relationship with say, 4-HO-MiPT (miprocin) as you do LSD? I've used LSD many hundreds of times, miprocin maybe 50-100, and miprocin is much harder to come by. What are some psychedelics you wish you had more time/access to, to build a closer working relationship with? A couple things (notably 3C-P) I've only bumped into once or twice and I think about them often hahaha.

My apologies if this post is a bit cryptic, fell asleep after taking some acid and soma to test if it potentiates, and while they modulate one another for sure I can't tell what the fuck they do to one another, this would need an excessive amount of further research to say anything meaningful imo. Reminds me of mixing etizolam and 2C-B experientially.

 

[scabbard]

As far as known plants, Syrian Rue is the most potent MAOI. If you want to avoid sedation with Syrian Rue, just keep the dose on the low side. Its MAOI effect is very strong. If what you are looking for is an oral DMT experience, then the 3.5g suggested by ddigital above is probably a good dose with minimal sedation.

Yes, caapi has proportionately more harmine. Caapi also has more THH, but the amount varies a lot between specimens. If you are looking for a more authentic "ayahuasca" experience, especially in so far as many traditional brews use more caapi than necessary for purely MAOI effect, then caapi is much better. That said, if you can somehow obtain harmine (and maybe THH) in pure chemical form, you can get a closer approximation using Syrian Rue while keeping the preparation simple and not contributing to over-harvesting of caapi vine.

This ayahuasca is pretty interesting stuff. Cool how there's the DMT, which is obviously psychedelic/psychoactive, but then there's the harmine, harmaline and the THH which also, I guess to a lesser extent, have psychedelic/hallucinogenic properties. I ordered my Rue. I'm gonna start with 3.5g and then add the DMT and see how it goes from there.

 

[scabbard]

You should also play with harmaline vs harmine, people often prefer one over the other. I find harmine more tactile and prone to body load, harmaline is desireable even alongside LSD and psilocybin. Cutting some percentage of your final harmine-or-harmaline with tetrahydroharmine is also worthwhile and quite interesting.

Would I have to buy pure harmine and pure harmaline to do this, or are there other plants that contain only one or the other?

You're referring to a molecule existing as a free base vs a salt form here, and your N,N-DMT being in its freebase form is just fine. The moment it touches your stomach acid, it will begin a cycle of protanation that it would also have began if it was a salt form, it's irrelevant. What is relevant is calibrating your mg scale.

I still have to check if it is indeed in FB form. However, even if my stomach will digest the salt vs FB form in the same way, the salt form of a substance would be less potent by weight so I'd need more of it to achieve the desired effect, isn't that correct?

Caapi is definitely the top tier source for plant based harmalas in my opinion, syrian rue is pretty brutal.

Brutal in what way?

People will have a ton to say on this, and there's a lot of argument to be had but I always gave it about 4-5 days before using monoamine releasers or anything. There is a diet supplement out right now though, tesofensine, which lasts something like 17 days? That would obviously fuck up ayahuasca schedule real bad. All in all, just come as metabolically clean as you can and at the slightest sign of upset, hit the abort switch. I coadministered half a tenstrip, 300mg of instant release bupropion, 300mg of harmaline, some amount of tetrahydroharmine, and just barely made it. Don't fuck up like that, trust me.

Would psychedelics fall into the category of monoamine releasers? Are you saying to avoid 5MeO-DMT for 5 days after taking an MAOI?

 

[Didgital]

purpose of dissolving the freebase DMT in vinegar to increase bioavailability

In general with oral formulations (as well as IV, IM etc), increasing water solubility directly increases bioavailability. Our bodies tend to not process globs of oils as well.

My concern is that a typical "light" dose of DMT (~30mg) could be heavy if the bioavailability is increased in comparison to how most people ingest it

30mg is considered light. You should know that DMT when it is in plants, exists as an acid salt, so it's already water water soluble. When we extract it as a pure form, its a freebase. Turning it back into a salt for oral consumption is highly recommended. Also oral, you're not getting that 30mg all in one second like when you smoke it. That 30mg is spread over a few hours.
Read this for more info on dosage using FB DMT. https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1366

Is there anything I need to do to the Rue seeds (grind them, etc.) or can I eat them as is?

I grind mine, steep in hot (not boiling water) filter out and drink the tea. It might actually be worse than the vinegar part lol. Very very bitter.

if I don't feel anything, redose

Totally acceptable. Remember the MAOi is going to be active for about 8 hrs, so that is your window. When the MAOi wears off, the DMT will as well very rapidly. Traditionally, it is not uncommon for one to drink, and then drink a few hours later.


Random thoughts I had when writing

---One interesting fact but not relevant to the convo is the Kichwa pride themselves on being able to take small amounts and still have a strong experience. This is in contrast to the Cofan, who take so much that they don't know which way is up or down. They also taught me that the purpose of Ayahuasca (the vine itself) is not to induce a trip, but rather to get rid of bad energy (purge) as well as enhance your relationship with other plants. It's not for the visions. Say you take ayahuasca and then you take a small amount of some unknown plant. You have a terrible experience (maybe there's poisonous compounds in that plant). Ayahuasca is telling you not to eat that plant. In this way, the tribal people were able to fine tune their diet.


---When we make it in the amazon, we were not measuring grams, and we didn't know the potency of the DMT plant. We kinda just do it on feel. A handful of chaliponga leaves a piece of vine smashed by rocks, we basically made a cage with the strips of cappi and placed the leaves in the center (so the leaves don't get burned on the edge of hot pot), simmered for several hours, removed the biomass and concentrated to a thick and viscous liquid.

---DMT plants I've taken with Ayahuasca
Dyploterus carybrena - Chaliponga (Def the strongest and weirdest, my preference) Very 3d, hard to tell what's real
Psychotria viridis - Chacruna - Super colorful. I was throwing up rainbows while 2D jaguars were jumping into my heart
Psychotria carthagensis - Amyruca - was the weakest of the 3 I took in south america. Maybe it was the high concentration of NMT, but made me physically sensitive without many visuals
Acacia confusa - 300mg - extremely warm feeling, visions became all encompassing but never dark or scary. Blacked out and shit the bed.

 

[Didgital]

my opinion Rue + DMT is not ayahuasca.

True, but as far as plant based MAOis, bannisterious and penganum are the most widely used. I actually MUCH prefer syrian rue as it doesn't contain the level of saponins that cappi has. Saponins tend to create a lot of foam in acidic environments (ie your stomach) and you are wayyyyyyyy more likely to be puking. The rue I don't get that, tho I almost always purge (i count dry heaving, crying, and even sweating profusely as a form of purge) I also do not find it sedating. Again I try to aim my dose for just MAO inhibition. Anything more may lead to the less desireable effects.
I don't really consider one plant superior to the other. I do know the ayahuasca vine i used in ecuador had been in use for at least generations. It hadn't been used in over 30 years as the shaman had long passed. It took some convincing the family, but they gave it to me and my teacher, two white dudes. They didn't want it to go to waste. It was half submerged in a bog and a shit ton of bugs living in it lol.

In contrast, the ayahuasca vine can produce compelling dream-sequence-like trips on its own without DMT

I dunno. I've taken bannisterious cappi by itself with no DMT plants, and got minimal effects that I could just as easily call placebo. I would only get minimal visuals if I was puffing strongly on mupacho (nicotania rustica) and it would wear off within 1 minute.

This occurred in a outdoor, public environment not conducive to this kind of heavy tripping. It was one hell of an initiation.

Another thing they taught me, is to absolutely NOT advertise that you're taking ayahuasca or do it in public. It is kind of a secret ceremony. Their reasoning would be that while you are tripping you are less able to defend yourself, not only physically, but spiritually. Possibly a jealous/rival shaman will attack you with energetic darts etc.. The amazon basin is not historically known for it's friendliness.

 

[Didgital]

I'm trying to catch up in some half-assed manner I suppose. I actually tried to count it out earlier, could only list 28 psychedelics I've used so far, I'm still catching up for sure. Do you build anywhere as meaningful of a relationship with say, 4-HO-MiPT (miprocin) as you do LSD? I've used LSD many hundreds of times, miprocin maybe 50-100, and miprocin is much harder to come by. What are some psychedelics you wish you had more time/access to, to build a closer working relationship with? A couple things (notably 3C-P) I've only bumped into once or twice and I think about them often hahaha.

Heh it's not a contest. I did write a list a long time ago i think it was around 70 different specific substances (i included things like ketamine, MDMA, salvia etc) If I included different plants ie san pedro and peyote, it was over a hundred. Not sure if I could even re-write the list I feel like I've probably forgotten some that I've taken.

I have several psychedelics that I have meaningful relationships with. After hundreds of LSD trips, and a few thumbprints, I'm actually pretty good on LSD. I may never take it ever again... I do have some AL-LAD that I will likely eat again.
5-meo-dmt, DMT, 2C-D/B/i are my current psychedelics of choice.

MMDA would be top of my list as far as compounds I'd like to try followed by TMA. TMA doesn't sound amazing, I just want to compare it to mescaline and TMA-2
I would love to explore TMA-2, 2C-T2, DOPr more. (grabs a flask and a condenser)

 

[Didgital]

ere's the DMT, which is obviously psychedelic/psychoactive, but then there's the harmine, harmaline and the THH which also, I guess to a lesser extent, have psychedelic/hallucinogenic propertie

Whats really interesting is if you look at the structure of the beta-carbolines, you'll see the tryptamine skeleton is embedded within it. Beta-carbolines are tryptamines that have formed a 3rd ring structure by bonding its ethylamine chain back to the indole.

Some plants have both tryptamines and beta-carbolines. Even mushrooms have beta carbolines...

Simultaneous Production of Psilocybin and a Cocktail of β-Carboline Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors in "Magic" Mushrooms - PubMed

The psychotropic effects of Psilocybe "magic" mushrooms are caused by the l-tryptophan-derived alkaloid psilocybin. Despite their significance, the secondary metabolome of these fungi is poorly understood in general. Our analysis of four Psilocybe species identified harmane, harmine, and a range...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Didgital]

Would I have to buy pure harmine and pure harmaline to do this, or are there other plants that contain only one or the other?

Yeah pretty much. There's no plants that contain only one or the other. There is passionflower! Which afaik only contains THH, which is an MAOi B btw. It's not useful for potentiating DMT, though it has been described as the cadillac of beta carbolines. Supposed to be very smooth and zen like.

You could also extract the rue and isolate/enrich the harmaline over the harmine. Not going to get into that here, but there's a good bit of info on DMT nexus.
They used to be available commercially on certain very well known legal marketplaces, I don't know if that's still the case.

However, even if my stomach will digest the salt vs FB form in the same way, the salt form of a substance would be less potent by weight so I'd need more of it to achieve the desired effect, isn't that correct?

Yes

Say I have 1 of DMT freebase.
Say I form a salt by hooking it to acetic acid. I'm adding the molecular weight of the acid to the freebase.

Relevant numbers.
Molar mass of FB DMT = 188.27 g/mol
Molar mass of acetic acid = 60.05 g/mol
Molar mass of DMT acetate = 248.32g/mol

1g (DMT) / 188.27 = .0053 moles of DMT. moles are just an arbitrary number of molecules, lets call it 1,000,000 molecules. You're adding the mass of 1,000,000 molecules of FB DMT to 1,000,000 molecules of acetic acid. (188.27 + 60.05 = 248.32g/mol

.0053 moles of DMT x 248.32 (g/mol/DMT acetate) = 1.3189 g of DMT acetate is equivalent to 1g DMT freebase.

You're not losing any DMT in this process. You're making more* of a weaker by weight compound that is water soluble.

Hope that makes sense.
If anyone want's to try this, just dissolve 1g of DMT into vinegar (preferably pure acetic acid diluted in h2o. Even distilled white vinegar has impurities that make themselves known as the solution becomes more concentrated). evaporate under vacuum or over weeks. you will be left with 1.3g of DMT acetate salt, which surprisingly is an oil, not a solid. I should have used it for oral, but I smeared it onto a joint and got high that way. It didn't work great. It kept running down the sides. I got the best effect by holding the joint vertically with cherry facing down. Otherwise it would run towards the mouthpiece.

and @Esperighanto is right that the FB should form a salt in stomach acids, but as most chemists know, DMT does not love to be paired with HCL. There are plenty of reports of people not having effects from eating the FB with MAOi. Could be due to what's already in the gut, or I dunno. I've always done the acetate trick and it works like a charm. Could theoretically use lemon juice for DMT citrate that's probably a bit more palatable.

I have this crazy fucked up mix of 50/50 5-meo-DMT/5-meo-mipt. I didn't have a good way of separating the two, but i figured the 5-meo-dmt will get metabolized and the 5-meo-mipt will form the salt. Totally works lol.

Sorry for multiple posts in a row, I wanted to address each individual specifically.

 

[JackARoe]

Fantastic thread, should be stickied.

 

[Didgital]

Miss that place

 

[Didgital]

Fresh chaliponga.


Also, super important is tobacco. See the rolll of brown in the middle. We would chew tobacco and spit a circle of tobacco juice around our work area. To keep away bad spirits of course. What is in tobacco? Nicotine. What is nicotine often used for? An insecticide. The kichwa traditions... maybe not super scientific in belief, were actually very practical.



I did not use tobacco at the time, i had been nictine free for 2.5 years. But then the day before the ceremonies at the midwife center, the midwives cried out "oh shame! We have forgotten our tobacco. I replied ive got some here (for the protection circle) they grabbed it, chopped it up w a machette, rolled it into a platano leaf and invited me in to the circle. Still smoking today, even this moment.

 

[scabbard]

Awesome info, thank you for so clearly addressing each question I had. Lots of good advice here. I hope others can benefit from this as well.

--When we make it in the amazon, we were not measuring grams, and we didn't know the potency of the DMT plant. We kinda just do it on feel.

For me personally I'm typically a proponent of not being super accurate about this stuff, in particular because no one know what dose is going to be most helpful/therapeutic for a given person on a given day. Trying to pinpoint it down to an exact science is not helpful. I don't want to be stupid about it, like I wouldn't just reach into a bag of mushrooms and grab a handful and hope for the best, but that's also what I like about mushrooms, the psilocybin content varies from strain to strain and varies depending on the part of the mushroom that's ingested, so I trust that I'll get whatever I get with the experience, knowing that whatever number is reading out on the scale isn't going to tell me what's going to happen.

However, given that this is my first time with DMT, and with MAOI's, I want to be cautious, so I do want to try and target a lighter dose to be safe.

Rue seeds on the way. Thanks for all the great info. I'll report back with an update on the experience and how it goes in a week or so.