Opioids Help with Buprenorphine and Tolerance to Full Agonists

[chemconnoisseur]

Hey! I dabbled in 7-oh enough to need some suboxone unfortunately. I’m taking 8mg right now. I have a very large amount of dilaudid that I want to enjoy before switching just to subs, or off all together. My plan is to be a full week off of 7-oh and 72 hours off of bupe before taking the dilly’s. Will this be enough for my tolerance to be low enough to feel them at all? I could dose quite high intranasaly or intravenously, obviously starting slow and working my way up. My concern is that it would just be a waste with my current tolerance level. Any thoughts?

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

72hrs should be fine.

Honestly, 8mg is huge, even for a 7-oh habit. You could be taking so much less. If you were taking less a day, you could just easily use full agonists on top of it.

But with 72hrs down time, you should definitely feel it. You probably wouldn't even need to wait that long, as hydromorphone is a decently potent opioid. It may be a tad blunted even with waiting 72hrs, cause that's just the nature of bupe. Bupe's metabolites can take an incredibly long time to leave the body too. So you may feel like you're not getting much from the dillies at firs,t but go slow & be careful, cause you might not feel much from them one day & then the next day they could hit you like a train.

 

[chemconnoisseur]

72hrs should be fine.

Honestly, 8mg is huge, even for a 7-oh habit. You could be taking so much less. If you were taking less a day, you could just easily use full agonists on top of it.

But with 72hrs down time, you should definitely feel it. You probably wouldn't even need to wait that long, as hydromorphone is a decently potent opioid. It may be a tad blunted even with waiting 72hrs, cause that's just the nature of bupe. Bupe's metabolites can take an incredibly long time to leave the body too. So you may feel like you're not getting much from the dillies at firs,t but go slow & be careful, cause you might not feel much from them one day & then the next day they could hit you like a train.

Thanks for all of the advice. I was actually kinda doing this so I could drop the bupe dose easily (and mainly because I’m a degenerate that wants to get high and already bought dilly’s in bulk). What would be a good bupe dose that would allow for full agonists to be used on say a weekly basis? 2mg or lower? I saw an online doc that was kinda pushing me to go for 16mg+, but I decided to stop at 8. I’m very new to this as I typically have good control over opioids, usually using kratom once or twice a week and binging on full agonists for 2-3 days every other month or so. I just randomly broke and had a 2-3 week stint with 7-oh that led to a week of hellish withdrawal and needed to get on subs to stabilize.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

The doctors have horrible advice with bupe. They put everyone on 16+mg.

I had a very heavy habit to various opioids in the past and 1mg of bupe daily was always enough to hold withdrawal at bay and I could feel some other things like kratom on top. But with any amount of bupe in your system your other opioids will always be a bit of a waste.

 

[chemconnoisseur]

The doctors have horrible advice with bupe. They put everyone on 16+mg.

I had a very heavy habit to various opioids in the past and 1mg of bupe daily was always enough to hold withdrawal at bay and I could feel some other things like kratom on top. But with any amount of bupe in your system your other opioids will always be a bit of a waste.

From what I understand mitragynine and 7-oh actually has a higher binding affinity than bupe, so in theory you should be able to feel it on any dose. Kratom also has some alkaloids that affect neurotransmitters other than the opioid system. I can definitely attest that 7-oh is enough to “break through” subs, thankfully I was able to avoid being dependent on both which would’ve been a disaster.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

From what I understand mitragynine and 7-oh actually has a higher binding affinity than bupe, so in theory you should be able to feel it on any dose. Kratom also has some alkaloids that affect neurotransmitters other than the opioid system. I can definitely attest that 7-oh is enough to “break through” subs, thankfully I was able to avoid being dependent on both which would’ve been a disaster.

Yes it's true kratom can "break through" easier than a lot of classical opioids. I was taking bupe in combination with kratom for a long time because I'm a junkie always seeking out a high. But in the end it was a waste. I'd been better off saving the bupe for when I didn't have kratom or not consuming kratom on top of the bupe.

Rule of thumb with bupe is less is always more. Once you get over 1mg you'll get declining returns as far as a high/euphoria goes. 1mg is already too much in a lot of cases sub-miligram doses like 0.5mg is already the peak of the euphoria bupe can provide. But bupe itself isn't anywhere near as euphoric as other opioids and never will be. So it's best used as little and in the least amount possible.

Clinics give horrible advice about dosing bupe which I guess is for two reasons. The first being that it can provide more of a "block" in higher doses. But the primary reason is probably because someone on 8-16mg a day will have a much harder time coming off bupe once they're on it for longer than a few days. Since it will blow your tolerance out of the water and lead to a very painful and long process of coming off of it.

Bupe in the strip formulations are also terrible for your dental health and will eat through your teeth. It's best to avoid using it sublingual as much as possible. It is more effective nasally than sublingual but it also causes problems if you snort it regularly (as most substances do but bupe seems even more damaging than normal). You can stretch your supply out longer by using the nasal route though. My personal rule of thumb was always to cut the dose at least by half. In other words, if 2mg can hold you and keep withdrawal at bay then 1mg nasally will do about the same thing.

No matter how you use it you'll get diminishing returns beyond about 1mg and the longer you stay on it the harder it will be to quit and/or feel the effects of more other opioids. Save a few odd-balls like kratom and 7-oh.

Concerning 7-oh and the other things being made from kratom: They are typically very short acting and will never provide the same level of euphoria as something like morphine. However, they can provide a decent nod (kratom alone can as well) if the stars align and you do not consume them in high doses everyday. Furthermore, you can extend the effects of 7-oh and other kratom derived substances if you consume kratom before and during. By that I mean if you prep your body with a dose or two of kratom before consuming 7-oh say two hours later you will extend the effects of the 7-oh by at least 1-2 hours (sometimes even longer). This is probably because your liver can not break down the 7-oh as quickly while it's occupied processing the kratom you've already taken. If I take 7-oh and pseudo I never take them by themselves and always consume them with kratom.

Consuming them with kratom seems like an effective way to avoid withdrawal. As long as you consume kratom regularly/daily. Withdrawal from 7-oh/psudeo will feel very mild and will be easily covered by a dose of kratom the next morning. You may have to up your dose a little. But if you avoid consuming 7-oh/psudeo/extracts daily it's an effective way to avoid the worse of it. Provided you're okay with being hooked on kratom itself.

Bupe I've never found to be too effective for covering the worse parts of kratom withdrawal. Since bupe can only cover the opioid receptors and not the other things kratom dose in the brain. Bupe will stop the sniffles in other words and calm your bowels down but it won't do anything for the wanting to crawl out of your skin feeling which is typical of anti-depressant withdrawal. Thankfully, kratom withdrawal isn't as harsh as withdrawal from other opioids. It's much milder and shorter than withdrawal from bupe and drugs like methadone. So I always advise just dealing with it cold turkey (or tapering) instead of trying to avoid it by using bupe and/or methadone. If you jump to bupe and/or methadone you're just setting yourself up for an even more horrible time.

I've gone cold turkey off most opioids and kratom is by far the easiest of the bunch. Not that it's a cake walk. The main issue with quitting kratom is the fact that it's so cheap and widely available. You can't delete your dealer's phone number and forget about it in other words. Instead it's there in every gas station and smoke shop luring you back.

 

[chemconnoisseur]

Yes it's true kratom can "break through" easier than a lot of classical opioids. I was taking bupe in combination with kratom for a long time because I'm a junkie always seeking out a high. But in the end it was a waste. I'd been better off saving the bupe for when I didn't have kratom or not consuming kratom on top of the bupe.

Rule of thumb with bupe is less is always more. Once you get over 1mg you'll get declining returns as far as a high/euphoria goes. 1mg is already too much in a lot of cases sub-miligram doses like 0.5mg is already the peak of the euphoria bupe can provide. But bupe itself isn't anywhere near as euphoric as other opioids and never will be. So it's best used as little and in the least amount possible.

Clinics give horrible advice about dosing bupe which I guess is for two reasons. The first being that it can provide more of a "block" in higher doses. But the primary reason is probably because someone on 8-16mg a day will have a much harder time coming off bupe once they're on it for longer than a few days. Since it will blow your tolerance out of the water and lead to a very painful and long process of coming off of it.

Bupe in the strip formulations are also terrible for your dental health and will eat through your teeth. It's best to avoid using it sublingual as much as possible. It is more effective nasally than sublingual but it also causes problems if you snort it regularly (as most substances do but bupe seems even more damaging than normal). You can stretch your supply out longer by using the nasal route though. My personal rule of thumb was always to cut the dose at least by half. In other words, if 2mg can hold you and keep withdrawal at bay then 1mg nasally will do about the same thing.

No matter how you use it you'll get diminishing returns beyond about 1mg and the longer you stay on it the harder it will be to quit and/or feel the effects of more other opioids. Save a few odd-balls like kratom and 7-oh.

Concerning 7-oh and the other things being made from kratom: They are typically very short acting and will never provide the same level of euphoria as something like morphine. However, they can provide a decent nod (kratom alone can as well) if the stars align and you do not consume them in high doses everyday. Furthermore, you can extend the effects of 7-oh and other kratom derived substances if you consume kratom before and during. By that I mean if you prep your body with a dose or two of kratom before consuming 7-oh say two hours later you will extend the effects of the 7-oh by at least 1-2 hours (sometimes even longer). This is probably because your liver can not break down the 7-oh as quickly while it's occupied processing the kratom you've already taken. If I take 7-oh and pseudo I never take them by themselves and always consume them with kratom.

Consuming them with kratom seems like an effective way to avoid withdrawal. As long as you consume kratom regularly/daily. Withdrawal from 7-oh/psudeo will feel very mild and will be easily covered by a dose of kratom the next morning. You may have to up your dose a little. But if you avoid consuming 7-oh/psudeo/extracts daily it's an effective way to avoid the worse of it. Provided you're okay with being hooked on kratom itself.

Bupe I've never found to be too effective for covering the worse parts of kratom withdrawal. Since bupe can only cover the opioid receptors and not the other things kratom dose in the brain. Bupe will stop the sniffles in other words and calm your bowels down but it won't do anything for the wanting to crawl out of your skin feeling which is typical of anti-depressant withdrawal. Thankfully, kratom withdrawal isn't as harsh as withdrawal from other opioids. It's much milder and shorter than withdrawal from bupe and drugs like methadone. So I always advise just dealing with it cold turkey (or tapering) instead of trying to avoid it by using bupe and/or methadone. If you jump to bupe and/or methadone you're just setting yourself up for an even more horrible time.

I've gone cold turkey off most opioids and kratom is by far the easiest of the bunch. Not that it's a cake walk. The main issue with quitting kratom is the fact that it's so cheap and widely available. You can't delete your dealer's phone number and forget about it in other words. Instead it's there in every gas station and smoke shop luring you back.

Thanks for the well thought out and insightful reply. I’ve been dependent on kratom once for 2-3 months and getting off was a walk in the park, just did ketamine for a few days and noticed basically 0 withdrawal. 7-OH alone after 2-3 weeks in comparison was hell. Spent a week being able to do literally nothing but eat and sleep in constant pain/discomfort. SR-17018 did nothing, gabapentin provided some relief, but not much. 7 days into withdrawal I was still miserable and hopped on subs, getting up to 8mg. Then I kinda bounced around alternating subs and 7-oh. My plan right now is to go 7 days no 7-oh and 3 days no subs (with pregabalin and maybe a benzo and dissociative for comfort) before taking dilaudid for a few days (bought a large supply I haven’t used) before hopping back on subs at 1-2mg. Or I could try SR-17”18 again and get off entirely. Hopefully that’ll be an easy enough way to rapidly lower my dose.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Thanks for all of the advice. I was actually kinda doing this so I could drop the bupe dose easily (and mainly because I’m a degenerate that wants to get high and already bought dilly’s in bulk). What would be a good bupe dose that would allow for full agonists to be used on say a weekly basis? 2mg or lower? I saw an online doc that was kinda pushing me to go for 16mg+, but I decided to stop at 8. I’m very new to this as I typically have good control over opioids, usually using kratom once or twice a week and binging on full agonists for 2-3 days every other month or so. I just randomly broke and had a 2-3 week stint with 7-oh that led to a week of hellish withdrawal and needed to get on subs to stabilize.

Anything lower than 2mg is a good place to stay if you're gonna be dabbling with full agonists still.

Think about it this way.. In Europe, they use buprenorphine for pain. Starting in doses as low as 75 micrograms every 4-6hrs. That's how potent it is.
Once you get up to 2-4mg, your doses are gonna start stacking up every day (because it also has a super long half life), increasing the amount of buprenorphine in your blood til it either hits a blocking dose or hits the ceiling effect.

Here in the US they just use bupe for opioid maintenance. And they purposefully put people on ridiculously high doses, most likely so that their receptors will be totally blocked. Plus being on higher doses means you are less likely to feel a "high" or anything from bupe, since in low doses, your blood levels sink low enough that when you go to dose again, you can get effects from it. This doesn't happen on the high doses though because all your receptors will already be clogged up with bupe. And your blood levels will never drop enough because of the long ass half-life (if dosing every day that is).

So you will wanna use the lowest doses of bupe possible.

Let me know how it goes! I'm jealous! I've never had hydromorphone before. I've always wanted to try it before I die, since Drugstore Cowboy is one of my favorite movies & I've heard so many great things about it. But I've hit an era of my life where opioids are incredibly difficult to find. Where as for 13 years I had constant access to tramadol & heroin at times.

I wish 7-oh did anything for me. I hear a lot of people saying it's good & that it's really addictive & causes withdrawals, but the few times I've tried it, I didn't really notice much. Maybe a tiny, subtle change in my consciousness, but it didn't really feel like an opioid to me. So I'm always shocked when I heard about people who use it. lol Not to mention, with the prices they ask for kratom extracts, I dunno how anybody even affords to have a habit on that stuff. lol I personally find buprenorphine more enjoyable & "opioid-like" compared to kratom & it's extracts, but that's just me & my body chemistry I guess.

I typically have good control over opioids

Just stay aware of this & be careful my friend!
When I first got into opioids over 20 years ago, I could take them or leave them too. And then tramadol came into my life & after a couple of years of using on & off, I started to notice that no matter how long I tried to go without any opioids, I just could never feel normal anymore. Don't get me wrong, I love opioids! But the dependence & PAWS (post-acute withdrawal syndrome/symptoms) are very much real & a bitch!

Now I'm some one who has to take an opioid to even feel normal or functional in the morning. Not that I mind though either, just wish I had a variety. lol

 

[chemconnoisseur]

Anything lower than 2mg is a good place to stay if you're gonna be dabbling with full agonists still.

Think about it this way.. In Europe, they use buprenorphine for pain. Starting in doses as low as 75 micrograms every 4-6hrs. That's how potent it is.
Once you get up to 2-4mg, your doses are gonna start stacking up every day (because it also has a super long half life), increasing the amount of buprenorphine in your blood til it either hits a blocking dose or hits the ceiling effect.

Here in the US they just use bupe for opioid maintenance. And they purposefully put people on ridiculously high doses, most likely so that their receptors will be totally blocked. Plus being on higher doses means you are less likely to feel a "high" or anything from bupe, since in low doses, your blood levels sink low enough that when you go to dose again, you can get effects from it. This doesn't happen on the high doses though because all your receptors will already be clogged up with bupe. And your blood levels will never drop enough because of the long ass half-life (if dosing every day that is).

So you will wanna use the lowest doses of bupe possible.

Let me know how it goes! I'm jealous! I've never had hydromorphone before. I've always wanted to try it before I die, since Drugstore Cowboy is one of my favorite movies & I've heard so many great things about it. But I've hit an era of my life where opioids are incredibly difficult to find. Where as for 13 years I had constant access to tramadol & heroin at times.

I wish 7-oh did anything for me. I hear a lot of people saying it's good & that it's really addictive & causes withdrawals, but the few times I've tried it, I didn't really notice much. Maybe a tiny, subtle change in my consciousness, but it didn't really feel like an opioid to me. So I'm always shocked when I heard about people who use it. lol Not to mention, with the prices they ask for kratom extracts, I dunno how anybody even affords to have a habit on that stuff. lol I personally find buprenorphine more enjoyable & "opioid-like" compared to kratom & it's extracts, but that's just me & my body chemistry I guess.



Just stay aware of this & be careful my friend!
When I first got into opioids over 20 years ago, I could take them or leave them too. And then tramadol came into my life & after a couple of years of using on & off, I started to notice that no matter how long I tried to go without any opioids, I just could never feel normal anymore. Don't get me wrong, I love opioids! But the dependence & PAWS (post-acute withdrawal syndrome/symptoms) are very much real & a bitch!

Now I'm some one who has to take an opioid to even feel normal or functional in the morning. Not that I mind though either, just wish I had a variety. lol

Honestly I don’t really plan on dabbling with full agonists too much after this. I’ve learned my lesson that the control is often an illusion and opioids in, thankfully I’m still very young (20) and have time to recover as I’m starting to notice PAWS developing. Doubt I’ll ever go truly sober, but will probably cut down to just gabapentinoids and maybe alcohol socially. I am excited to try hydromorphone though (the degenerate in me lives on), managed to get a pretty insane deal and had the money to buy quite a bit. Hopefully I’ll be able to use it to lower my bupe or kick it instead of just developing a new habit. Surprised you didn’t notice much from 7-oh, may have just been too low of a dose, when I first started I could pretty easily nod from it. Don’t recommend trying it though, it’s like half of an opioid high with twice the tolerance development. Mine was so high at one point that I went through maybe 4 grams of o-dsmt in a day and felt nothing but withdrawal relief.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Honestly I don’t really plan on dabbling with full agonists too much after this. I’ve learned my lesson that the control is often an illusion and opioids in, thankfully I’m still very young (20) and have time to recover as I’m starting to notice PAWS developing. Doubt I’ll ever go truly sober, but will probably cut down to just gabapentinoids and maybe alcohol socially. I am excited to try hydromorphone though (the degenerate in me lives on), managed to get a pretty insane deal and had the money to buy quite a bit. Hopefully I’ll be able to use it to lower my bupe or kick it instead of just developing a new habit. Surprised you didn’t notice much from 7-oh, may have just been too low of a dose, when I first started I could pretty easily nod from it. Don’t recommend trying it though, it’s like half of an opioid high with twice the tolerance development. Mine was so high at one point that I went through maybe 4 grams of o-dsmt in a day and felt nothing but withdrawal relief.

Damn. O-desmethyltramadol is another one I'd love to try! Cause I loved tramadol.
How did it compare to tramadol? (assuming you've had tramadol). I would think maybe O-dsmt might either be better & cleaner feeling or it might actually be less euphoric & enjoyable than regular tramadol, because regular tramadol has serotonergic properties, among a bunch of other things, that add to it's experience.

I'll have to give 7-oh another try some time. It's just really damn expensive for like 1 buzz. lol And I know it's gonna be short acting, so if it did hit me good, it'd just be a tease. lol I'm poor, so I have to choose my options wisely. That's if they don't ban it first. I see a lot of states flipping out about it & calling it an "epidemic". Yet ironically, alcohol kills more people annually in the US than all opioids combined (even fentanyl). And yet, nobody's trying to ban or make alcohol illegal. lol The US is so fuckin' hypocritical. They don't care if you wanna get shit face wasted at a bar & then crash your car on the way home. But god forbid you wanna use a drug that helps pain & makes you feel more functional & sane. Hopefully enough people will start seeing that they're constantly going after any drug that provides pain relief or euphoria, while allowing other legal things that are more dangerous or worse for your health (alcohol, tobacco, sugar, etc..), which is pretty odd. Almost like they want to eventually make pain relief a luxury for the rich only.

I also tried tianeptine back in the day & couldn't understand why anyone liked it. lol Didn't feel like an opioid to me at all. Guess I just never had much luck with the quasi legal opioids like kratom, 7-oh, tianeptine, etc..

But then again, I'm use to heroin, tramadol, methadone & buprenorphine. So maybe I just expect way too much out of these legal options.

Shit, I'd do anything to be 20 again. lol I got about an extra 20 more years on ya. lol I'm getting old. But you definitely have time to figure yourself & rejuvenate if you go down a wrong path.

 

[chemconnoisseur]

Damn. O-desmethyltramadol is another one I'd love to try! Cause I loved tramadol.
How did it compare to tramadol? (assuming you've had tramadol). I would think maybe O-dsmt might either be better & cleaner feeling or it might actually be less euphoric & enjoyable than regular tramadol, because regular tramadol has serotonergic properties, among a bunch of other things, that add to it's experience.

I'll have to give 7-oh another try some time. It's just really damn expensive for like 1 buzz. lol And I know it's gonna be short acting, so if it did hit me good, it'd just be a tease. lol I'm poor, so I have to choose my options wisely. That's if they don't ban it first. I see a lot of states flipping out about it & calling it an "epidemic". Yet ironically, alcohol kills more people annually in the US than all opioids combined (even fentanyl). And yet, nobody's trying to ban or make alcohol illegal. lol The US is so fuckin' hypocritical. They don't care if you wanna get shit face wasted at a bar & then crash your car on the way home. But god forbid you wanna use a drug that helps pain & makes you feel more functional & sane. Hopefully enough people will start seeing that they're constantly going after any drug that provides pain relief or euphoria, while allowing other legal things that are more dangerous or worse for your health (alcohol, tobacco, sugar, etc..), which is pretty odd. Almost like they want to eventually make pain relief a luxury for the rich only.

I also tried tianeptine back in the day & couldn't understand why anyone liked it. lol Didn't feel like an opioid to me at all. Guess I just never had much luck with the quasi legal opioids like kratom, 7-oh, tianeptine, etc..

But then again, I'm use to heroin, tramadol, methadone & buprenorphine. So maybe I just expect way too much out of these legal options.

Shit, I'd do anything to be 20 again. lol I got about an extra 20 more years on ya. lol I'm getting old. But you definitely have time to figure yourself & rejuvenate if you go down a wrong path.

Very true about alcohol, if it didn’t have cultural and historical significance it’d be a schedule 1 drug. Zero practical uses for it. It’s literally a poison by definition and causes mass social harm. But that’s a whole different rant lol. I’ve only had tramadol once and it was IV in the hospital. I’ve been on SSRI’s (now an MAOi which works infinitely better) since 5 years old, so I avoided it based on interactions. I did prefer it to O-DSMT, the serotonergic aspect seemed to enhance the experience a good bit. O-DSMT felt a bit like a dirtier oxycodone, the stimulation was a bit more forced; it retains some of the NRI activity of tramadol.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Very true about alcohol, if it didn’t have cultural and historical significance it’d be a schedule 1 drug. Zero practical uses for it. It’s literally a poison by definition and causes mass social harm. But that’s a whole different rant lol. I’ve only had tramadol once and it was IV in the hospital. I’ve been on SSRI’s (now an MAOi which works infinitely better) since 5 years old, so I avoided it based on interactions. I did prefer it to O-DSMT, the serotonergic aspect seemed to enhance the experience a good bit. O-DSMT felt a bit like a dirtier oxycodone, the stimulation was a bit more forced; it retains some of the NRI activity of tramadol.

So true!! Alcohol is literally a liquid carcinogen that use to be used for cleaning industrial pipes & machinery. And now people drink it like it's water. lol
It would definitely be a schedule 1 drug if we lived in a sane world. Hell most of the drugs they have labeled as schedule I actually DO have medicinal value (i.e. - heroin is pain killer, a good one too, LSD can help people with all kinds of things & then of course we know marijuana has medicinal properties). So their whole "drug scheduling" thing is such a farce.

Aah, thanks for the response back! I figured tramadol itself was probably a tad bit better than O-dsmt. Tramadol is also a weak TAAR1 agonist, so not only is it a weak SNRI, but it also releases serotonin. But yeah it can cause some nasty problems when combined with antidepressants. Hell, even with Welbutrin (which is a shitty DNRI, but mostly just an NRI after it gets metabolized). Took tramadol with welbutrin in my system once & not only did it blunt all the euphoria & mood lift from the tramadol, but I also felt like I was going to have a seizure the whole time.