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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Heroin Naloxone in Heroin withdrawl?

Allylbenzene said:
There's plenty of otc options not including naloxone or experimental things like SR-17018.
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Yeah there’s definitely things that will help but not anything close to a cure. 7oh is what I use and yes I know it’s horrible but I’m already addicted to strong opioids so it’s the least of my problems
 
Zopiclone bandit said:
I'm not so sure, I.V. use of buprenorphine subutex was a big thing in Finland, who would have known shooting that stuff had the same kind of effect as Heroin.
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Bupre is a very strong partial agonist, which means that it activates the MOR partially. Therefore, it can have indeed a decent effect. Especially since it has a huge potency of 50x morphine.

Naloxone on the other hand is a total Antagonist on all opioid receptors. Meaning it would make you feel horrible when taking; even in wd).
 
andrey said:
Bupre is a very strong partial agonist, which means that it activates the MOR partially. Therefore, it can have indeed a decent effect. Especially since it has a huge potency of 50x morphine.

Naloxone on the other hand is a total Antagonist on all opioid receptors. Meaning it would make you feel horrible when taking; even in wd).
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I think the potency is more around 30x
 
PenguinWithNapalm said:
Yeah there’s definitely things that will help but not anything close to a cure. 7oh is what I use and yes I know it’s horrible but I’m already addicted to strong opioids so it’s the least of my problems
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Honestly in terms of dependency and withdrawal 7-oh is probably worse. It has a ridiculously high binding affinity (higher than buprenorphine) and seems to quickly increase tolerance well beyond what would be possible with full agonist opioids. The withdrawal seems to be far worse than say heroin or oxycodone, despite being a “weaker” drug.
 
chemconnoisseur said:
Honestly in terms of dependency and withdrawal 7-oh is probably worse. It has a ridiculously high binding affinity (higher than buprenorphine) and seems to quickly increase tolerance well beyond what would be possible with full agonist opioids. The withdrawal seems to be far worse than say heroin or oxycodone, despite being a “weaker” drug.
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Have you ever been through heroin withdrawal?
 
andrey said:
Still, it’s a damn beast honestly. I read that some people who have no tolerance at all can use it for a high. And it’s supposed to be great and lasts like 12 hours I think.
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Yeah I’ve heard that also. I was prescribed suboxone on and off for years so obviously I’ve never experienced any shred of euphoria or a high. It is actually the opioid of choice in some parts of the world. I have an ex that was clean from opioids for a long time and took some bupe and she said that she was definitely high but it wasn’t very enjoyable like she just felt fucked up for hours in a kind of opioid limbo of being half asleep and nodding with a tiny bit of if any euphoria. It’s absolutely a beast to get off of though
 
PenguinWithNapalm said:
Yeah I’ve heard that also. I was prescribed suboxone on and off for years so obviously I’ve never experienced any shred of euphoria or a high. It is actually the opioid of choice in some parts of the world. I have an ex that was clean from opioids for a long time and took some bupe and she said that she was definitely high but it wasn’t very enjoyable like she just felt fucked up for hours in a kind of opioid limbo of being half asleep and nodding with a tiny bit of if any euphoria. It’s absolutely a beast to get off of though
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Is it really? Im in OST and on morphine(thank god) and they treat it here like the ultimate treatment option for opioid addiction. It definitely works with some people, but I know that the up to most of the patients who use it, still have tremendous amount of consumption of illegal drugs.
I thought it would be easier to come off it because it doesnt affect the addiction centres that much and due to its partial agonist nature
 
Skorpio said:
Possibly, but it would certainly not be worth all the other effect of corticosteroids. Corticosteroids both activate and inhibit a whole host of processes that tend to tamp down inflammation.

Inflammation is a super shitty term because it encompasses a whole host of similar processes which have different outcomes and are generally not synonymous to one another.

Here is a review (open access) if you are interested in the fine details of opioid/inflammatory crosstalk.
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That microglial activation idea is exactly why very tiny doses of Naltrexone are sometimes explored. At ultra-low levels, it can dampen that TLR4 signalling and calm microglial activation without blocking the opioid receptors that provide pain relief.
 
andrey said:
Is it really? Im in OST and on morphine(thank god) and they treat it here like the ultimate treatment option for opioid addiction. It definitely works with some people, but I know that the up to most of the patients who use it, still have tremendous amount of consumption of illegal drugs.
I thought it would be easier to come off it because it doesnt affect the addiction centres that much and due to its partial agonist nature
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Yeah Finland is one where it’s incredibly popular (people IV it I guess) and there are a handful of other places. I think that it is dogshit for opioid treatment just in my personal experience and opinion but it definitely works wonders and is lifesaving for many people. It makes me feel empty and dead inside. No positive emotions at all. The withdrawal is just so loooong but I think you’re right that it isn’t as bad as a full agonist like methadone
 
PenguinWithNapalm said:
Yeah Finland is one where it’s incredibly popular (people IV it I guess) and there are a handful of other places. I think that it is dogshit for opioid treatment just in my personal experience and opinion but it definitely works wonders and is lifesaving for many people. It makes me feel empty and dead inside. No positive emotions at all. The withdrawal is just so loooong but I think you’re right that it isn’t as bad as a full agonist like methadone
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Honestly, I dont think full agonist are generally worse. As I mentioned in a comment before, I get morphine(ER) and Im so glad about it. There are studies which showed that patients on morphine are generally more happy, have less additional consumption of drugs; and in one study they found out that when 20 methadone patient who were drinking alcohol chronically changed to morphine, 8 of them significantly reduced or even stopped their alcohol intake.

While I dont have the normal opioid effects anymore, I feel very satisfied and pleasant. Allegedly, morphine has a mild antidepressant and antipsychotisch effect. I never had this feeling with any other opioid surprisingly. And it doesnt seem to diminish. Even other docs tell that their patients on morphine are generally more happy. It still has some serious side effects(constipation, low oral bioavailability, easy to inject…).

I even managed to reduce to a quite low dose, which makes participation in daily life easier. If you look at out methadone patients in comparison, most of them look like total wrecks.
I think the best way for OST is, to provide several options which the patient can choose from.
 
The one time that I used narcan after I overdosed I took one nasal thing and went downstairs and called for an ambulance and by the time I got to the hospital 20 minutes later when they transferred me from the ambulance stretcher to the hospital stretcher I crapped my pants and continued to crap the bed in the hospital for the next 1 1/2-2 hrs,uncontrollably,,,,so if you do decide to do this the better be seated on a toilet,I was able to walk out of the hostility about 3-4 hrs after I arrived,,,I sipped methadone for a few days afterwards and I was actually feeling better after about a week… I was doing about 8 bags a day of nyc dope
 
PenguinWithNapalm said:
Have you ever been through heroin withdrawal?
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No not really. Only been dependent on opioids twice. Once with leaf kratom after 2-3 months of 24/7 use (wasn’t bad at all) and once with 7-oh after 2-3 weeks of 24/7 use which was hell and ended with me on suboxone. I’ve only done heroin once, the true lab tested #4 not the fent/zene/tanq junk that’s on the street. I went through a gram mostly boofed and IV’d over around 3-4 days iirc. Had some brief rebound, but not quite as bad as experiences I’ve had with using 7-OH over a similar time period.
 
Just a little pinprick said:
The one time that I used narcan after I overdosed I took one nasal thing and went downstairs and called for an ambulance and by the time I got to the hospital 20 minutes later when they transferred me from the ambulance stretcher to the hospital stretcher I crapped my pants and continued to crap the bed in the hospital for the next 1 1/2-2 hrs,uncontrollably,,,,so if you do decide to do this the better be seated on a toilet,I was able to walk out of the hostility about 3-4 hrs after I arrived,,,I sipped methadone for a few days afterwards and I was actually feeling better after about a week… I was doing about 8 bags a day of nyc dope
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Naloxone should really only be taken as ultima ratio. Sometimes if you have only mild symptoms, you can try to breathe consciously or have someone with you who commands you to breathe.
A opioid addict with a tolerance needs huge amounts to actually reach respiratory depression. I read once in a study that for a person in MMT 5 times their regular dose would be fatal.
 
chemconnoisseur said:
No not really. Only been dependent on opioids twice. Once with leaf kratom after 2-3 months of 24/7 use (wasn’t bad at all) and once with 7-oh after 2-3 weeks of 24/7 use which was hell and ended with me on suboxone. I’ve only done heroin once, the true lab tested #4 not the fent/zene/tanq junk that’s on the street. I went through a gram mostly boofed and IV’d over around 3-4 days iirc. Had some brief rebound, but not quite as bad as experiences I’ve had with using 7-OH over a similar time period.
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Well in all fairness I have never been through 7-OH withdrawal and you never been through heroin withdrawal (I have) and I guess it’s subjective anyway. How long was the 7oh withdrawal? I’ve heard that it’s a longer kind of withdrawal. What was it like?
 
Zopiclone bandit said:
I'm not so sure, I.V. use of buprenorphine subutex was a big thing in Finland, who would have known shooting that stuff had the same kind of effect as Heroin.
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Subutex and suboxone are two different medications, subutex does not contain naloxone.
However I have actually watched people shoot suboxone and if they are not super opioid tolerant they get pretty smashed, so the naloxone clearly doesn't do what it is supposed to as far as it being an abuse deterrent.
I agree with what someone said earlier, the addition of naloxone to bup to come up with suboxone was nothing more than a marketing ploy...extending the patent so no other companies could come up with a generic version.

It is hard to believe that the chemists who were involved in coming up with suboxone didn't know that the binding affinity of bup for the mor is greater than naloxone, therefor making it useless as an abuse deterrent.
 
andrey said:
Still, its a damn beast honestly. I read that some people who have no tolerance at all can use it for a high. And its supposed to be great and lasts like 12 hours I think.
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This is true.
I've been on buprenorphine for almost 10 years now. And every once in awhile, I STILL will catch a mild, enjoyable buzz out of the blue from them.

I actually originally got into buprenorphine for using it to "get high" (I hate that phrase, because it makes it sound like I was doing something wrong, when in reality I was taking a medicine that was helping me, and just because western medicine wants to demonize "euphoria" and "feelings of well-being" as unwanted side effects, it muddies the complex reality of why people use drugs & shortens it down to "they just wanted to get high").

With no tolerance, bupe can absolutely get some one high as a kite. I've seen people puke & nod off the smallest doses of buprenorphine too.

The "high" isn't all that great though. I'd say it's like "diet heroin". Where it feels like you're about to come up on a good full agonist opioid, but it never quite reaches that plateau. And taking more won't do anything.


andrey said:
Honestly, I dont think full agonist are generally worse. As I mentioned in a comment before, I get morphine(ER) and Im so glad about it. There are studies which showed that patients on morphine are generally more happy, have less additional consumption of drugs; and in one study they found out that when 20 methadone patient who were drinking alcohol chronically changed to morphine, 8 of them significantly reduced or even stopped their alcohol intake.
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This has been my experience. I can thank opioids (tramadol, buprenorphine & diacetylmorphine) for getting me off alcohol.
As long as I have opioids, I have absolutely zero desire to drink or partake in many other drugs, except cannabis or the occasional psychedelic or stimulant. But even then, if I could just take diacetylmorphine every day, I probably wouldn't need to be on benzos, antidepressants & gabapentin either. But alas, the Western world does NOT want to acknowledge the numerous benefits of opioids. They've been pumping out fentanyl & kratom propaganda non-stop the past few years. It's like they want opioids to only be a luxury for the rich & powerful (who obviously don't have to follow the rules like the rest of us have to).

If I was still a drunk like I was back in the day though, I'd probably be dead by now. Insane that our society allows a toxic bullshit drug like alcohol to be freely available & advertised everywhere, all while demonizing & criminalizing the very medicines that have helped me through so much.
 
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