Tryptamines Mushroom mini-sessions and microdoses

[Asante]

For me, 0.25gr Psilocybe cubensis (1.5mg psilocybin) or 0.1gr psilocybe cyanescens (same) by no means is a microdose! Its rather a mini-session that causes sensory, mental and mood effects, which in the right setting can cause rolling laughter or mental profundity, but which when ignored may cause dysphoria.

A microdose for me is 0.25-0.5mg psilocybin which is roughly 0.05-0.1gr cubensis, or conveniently 1/15 of a gram (0.4mg) which works out to approximately 2-4mcg LSD or 2.5-5mcg 1P-LSD.

I'm a strong opponent of frequent microdosing schemes, I feel the minimum time between trips of ayahuasca or mushrooms, being 2 weeks, should be respected for microdoses also. You are still taking 4-HO-DMT in your brain, even if the dose seems minute its still a dose of something stronger than we realize that does cause neuroplasticity and shifts in the mind. Its not nothing, or we wouldnt do it.

We had members at the Shroomery who microdosed every other day, open ended, or even every day. Over time, and please excuse me for saying it, some of them got a bit peculiar and drama prone - which is exactly what you'd expect to see if someone trips too often: you get an increasing backlog of psychological mobility not integrated as change that piles up in your baseline.

I would treat microdoses with the respect of a mini-session and not do it more often than twice a month. At 1/15 gram, a gram of cubies would last you 7.5 months that way, and 1/8 oz as much as 2 years.

How do you feel about these things?

 

[TheLightBringer]

I dont know if I would microdose psilocybin, unfortunately the 5HT2B agonism seems quite significant on paper and we dont have enough studies on the long term effects of psilocybin on the heart.


Now if it is proved that long term psilocybin use does not have any effect on heart valves then ill take back what ive said. But daily exposure to 5HT2B agonists is what causes the issues rather than sporadic one time exposures to high doses.


Keep in mind that psilocybin has higher affinity for the 5HT2B receptor than both LSD and MDMA, the latter being associated with valvuopathy albeit Im sure being a stimulant doesnt help, so take that info with a grain of salt. Still I would be cautious with regular microdosing

 

[iom]

We had members at the Shroomery who microdosed every other day, open ended, or even every day. Over time, and please excuse me for saying it, some of them got a bit peculiar and drama prone - which is exactly what you'd expect to see if someone trips too often: you get an increasing backlog of psychological mobility not integrated as change that piles up in your baseline.

I like this description and suspect that something analogous occurs physiologically in the rest of the body also. I think of it as scheduling renovations before the previous ones are finished. It's always important to wait for the body and mind both to integrate the trip. Alternatively, I think one can have multiple successive trips (albeit with tolerance coming into play), and these can kind of fold into one extra powerful one where the body and mind are concerned.

Rather than a two week rule, I lean toward longer periods of post-trip integration depending on the strength and possibly duration of the trip. For mini doses of short duration things, once per week might be ok, but maybe not repeated for long periods of time. For larger mini doses, waiting two weeks is best. For weaker full trips, waiting at least 3 weeks is best. For stronger trips, waiting 6-8 weeks or longer may be called for.

I dont know if I would microdose psilocybin, unfortunately the 5HT2B agonism seems quite significant on paper and we dont have enough studies on the long term effects of psilocybin on the heart.

What if one "microdoses" no more than once per week or even once per two weeks? Do you think that is a lot less likely to be harmful? I lean that direction, but of course I'm not certain. I do hope we are able to see some better studies on this, and ideally with something like 2C-B in addition to psilocybin.

Keep in mind that psilocybin has higher affinity for the 5HT2B receptor than both LSD and MDMA, the latter being associated with valvuopathy albeit Im sure being a stimulant doesnt help, so take that info with a grain of salt. Still I would be cautious with regular microdosing

The dosages of MDMA and psilocybin are quite different, so a "regular" dose of psilocybin like 15 mg may not occupy as many 5-HT2B receptors as a "regular" dose of MDMA like 125 mg would. I honestly don't know. I have also seen data suggesting that MDMA is a strong 5-HT2B agonist and that psilocybin is very weak---almost an antagonist. I say suggesting because that's about all it's good for without more in-depth study.

 

[TheLightBringer]

I like this description and suspect that something analogous occurs physiologically in the rest of the body also. I think of it as scheduling renovations before the previous ones are finished. It's always important to wait for the body and mind both to integrate the trip. Alternatively, I think one can have multiple successive trips (albeit with tolerance coming into play), and these can kind of fold into one extra powerful one where the body and mind are concerned.

Rather than a two week rule, I lean toward longer periods of post-trip integration depending on the strength and possibly duration of the trip. For mini doses of short duration things, once per week might be ok, but maybe not repeated for long periods of time. For larger mini doses, waiting two weeks is best. For weaker full trips, waiting at least 3 weeks is best. For stronger trips, waiting 6-8 weeks or longer may be called for.



What if one "microdoses" no more than once per week or even once per two weeks? Do you think that is a lot less likely to be harmful? I lean that direction, but of course I'm not certain. I do hope we are able to see some better studies on this, and ideally with something like 2C-B in addition to psilocybin.



The dosages of MDMA and psilocybin are quite different, so a "regular" dose of psilocybin like 15 mg may not occupy as many 5-HT2B receptors as a "regular" dose of MDMA like 125 mg would. I honestly don't know. I have also seen data suggesting that MDMA is a strong 5-HT2B agonist and that psilocybin is very weak---almost an antagonist. I say suggesting because that's about all it's good for without more in-depth study.

Yes the dosage is quite different in psilocybin and MDMA which does give me hope, Im unsure of the safety profile of 2C-B regarding 5HT2B agonism. Other phenethylamines do posses quite the affinity for 5HT2B.


I think everyone should be aware that Alexander Shulgin who trialed many tryptamines and phenethylamines probably tripping 1x per week for many many years, eventually developed valvular heart disease and had to get heart surgery to replace his aortic valve. I dont know how much his use of psychedelics contributed to it but I doubt they helped his case. Still he made it to 88 years old


5F-MET is actually an ANTAGONIST of the 5HT2B receptor altough it has a short half life. But surely more tryptamine ligands with 2B agonism and longer half lives exist.


There are far better compounds for increased neurogenesis and cognition over psychedelics, people put them too high on a pedestal.

 

[Didgital]

For me, 0.25gr Psilocybe cubensis (1.5mg psilocybin) or 0.1gr psilocybe cyanescens (same) by no means is a microdose! Its rather a mini-session that causes sensory, mental and mood effects, which in the right setting can cause rolling laughter or mental profundity, but which when ignored may cause dysphoria.

A microdose for me is 0.25-0.5mg psilocybin which is roughly 0.05-0.1gr cubensis, or conveniently 1/15 of a gram (0.4mg) which works out to approximately 2-4mcg LSD or 2.5-5mcg 1P-LSD.

I'm a strong opponent of frequent microdosing schemes, I feel the minimum time between trips of ayahuasca or mushrooms, being 2 weeks, should be respected for microdoses also. You are still taking 4-HO-DMT in your brain, even if the dose seems minute its still a dose of something stronger than we realize that does cause neuroplasticity and shifts in the mind. Its not nothing, or we wouldnt do it.

We had members at the Shroomery who microdosed every other day, open ended, or even every day. Over time, and please excuse me for saying it, some of them got a bit peculiar and drama prone - which is exactly what you'd expect to see if someone trips too often: you get an increasing backlog of psychological mobility not integrated as change that piles up in your baseline.

I would treat microdoses with the respect of a mini-session and not do it more often than twice a month. At 1/15 gram, a gram of cubies would last you 7.5 months that way, and 1/8 oz as much as 2 years.

How do you feel about these things?

I would agree regarding dosing but it can definitely vary mushroom by mushroom and person to person. Typically .25-.3g is where it does become a mini dose and I can tell I am slightly altered. .1g or 100mg of cubensis, I can't really feel.

I've only gone on a microdose regimen once and it wasn't long. For almost 2 weeks I would take about .2 every 3rd day. I don't regret doing it, but I also didn't continue it.

I dont know if I would microdose psilocybin, unfortunately the 5HT2B agonism seems quite significant on paper and we dont have enough studies on the long term effects of psilocybin on the heart.

Ok I've read every paper I could find on psychedelics and cardiovascular health, and you're right, it doesn't look good on paper especially with psilocin. There are several ergoline 5ht2b agonist medications that have caused VHD, but discontinuation lead to VHD receding. So it really seems like taking a break is wise.

After 26 years of taking psychedelics, I have known several dozen people who have microdosed mushrooms weekly for years. I also had a friend who took macro doses of all sorts of psychedelics (LSD, Mushrooms, DOM, DOB, 2C-E, etc) multiple times a week, I'm not kidding for probably 15-20 years. You'd think if anyone would develop heart complications it would be him, but ultimately, he passed away from esophageal cancer (I assume from smoking approx 1lb of cannabis a month for that same time frame.) I'm not saying that it's safe but, I think if it were really dangerous I would have met people who've had problems by now.

Interesting but not terribly surprising to hear that shulgin ultimately did have heart issues. Just the massive range of compounds and his methodology of establishing dose. But yeah 88 is pretty good especially for someone who was literally taking novel and unknown substances.

It's true there haven't been many studies/papers on the subject, and most of them are just literature reviews that all sort of suggest the same thing and conclude by saying we need more data. This one actually did generate experimental data but I don't think it looked at psilocybin. It's results did not support the idea that chronic low dose lsd caused any heart problems though.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsptsci.5c00202

Is there anyway I can acquire them?

Sourcing any subtances on BL is strictly prohibited. Try growing again or go to a hippy concert and ask around. There are literally grow bags you can find in headshops and online that you pull a string and spores drop onto presterilized media.

 

[TheLightBringer]

I would agree regarding dosing but it can definitely vary mushroom by mushroom and person to person. Typically .25-.3g is where it does become a mini dose and I can tell I am slightly altered. .1g or 100mg of cubensis, I can't really feel.

I've only gone on a microdose regimen once and it wasn't long. For almost 2 weeks I would take about .2 every 3rd day. I don't regret doing it, but I also didn't continue it.



Ok I've read every paper I could find on psychedelics and cardiovascular health, and you're right, it doesn't look good on paper especially with psilocin. There are several ergoline 5ht2b agonist medications that have caused VHD, but discontinuation lead to VHD receding. So it really seems like taking a break is wise.

After 26 years of taking psychedelics, I have known several dozen people who have microdosed mushrooms weekly for years. I also had a friend who took macro doses of all sorts of psychedelics (LSD, Mushrooms, DOM, DOB, 2C-E, etc) multiple times a week, I'm not kidding for probably 15-20 years. You'd think if anyone would develop heart complications it would be him, but ultimately, he passed away from esophageal cancer (I assume from smoking approx 1lb of cannabis a month for that same time frame.) I'm not saying that it's safe but, I think if it were really dangerous I would have met people who've had problems by now.

Interesting but not terribly surprising to hear that shulgin ultimately did have heart issues. Just the massive range of compounds and his methodology of establishing dose. But yeah 88 is pretty good especially for someone who was literally taking novel and unknown substances.

It's true there haven't been many studies/papers on the subject, and most of them are just literature reviews that all sort of suggest the same thing and conclude by saying we need more data. This one actually did generate experimental data but I don't think it looked at psilocybin. It's results did not support the idea that chronic low dose lsd caused any heart problems though.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsptsci.5c00202

Sourcing any subtances on BL is strictly prohibited. Try growing again or go to a hippy concert and ask around. There are literally grow bags you can find in headshops and online that you pull a string and spores drop onto presterilized media.

Tbh I have to agree, I also think its unlikely that significant issues will arise. I guess Ive just become overly cautious since getting sober.

I do believe it could exacerbate existing issues, but like you mentioned I think a lot of us have dabbled heavily or know someone whos dabbled heavily in psychedelics without issues. Again, might be survivorship bias from our part but the fact that there doesnt seem to be any prominent literature of people dying from cardiovascular issues after long term psychedelic use is a good sign at least.

It would be interesting to see an ultrasound and EKG on someone who has done repeated higher doses of psychedelics daily. I used to know this guy who would post himself eating close to 10 tabs + multiple grams of shrooms daily despite not getting much effect from it anymore. Wonder if his heart had any structural changes from that…

 

[Esperighanto]

We had members at the Shroomery who microdosed every other day, open ended, or even every day. Over time, and please excuse me for saying it, some of them got a bit peculiar and drama prone - which is exactly what you'd expect to see if someone trips too often: you get an increasing backlog of psychological mobility not integrated as change that piles up in your baseline.

Frequent administration of psychedelics requires a fittingly frequent pattern of integration, people who ignore that can end up with what I used to call "psychoplastogenic mania", the same thing happened from people bombing monstrous doses of non-hallucinogenic psychoplastogens back when I was in college. They usually got better within 2-3 months of abstaining from the agents that caused the issue to begin with.

How do you feel about these things?

I'm a firm advocate of "mesodosing", I am thoroughly convinced at this point from both peer reviewed literature as well as subjective experiences and blinded studies my homies and I ran on one another, microdosing doesn't do anything if you don't get the dosage (and possible need for dose escalation) right as well as the time intervals, and this all depends heavily on subjective response to the drug as well as batch variance from batch-to-batch of the drug. We found that taking a LOT of 5-HTP daily made us need less, it's consistently brought a low but noticeable decline into the threshold doses of serotonergics for us which was weird, I'd like to see if others can replicate that to see if the hunch holds water.

When I say "mesodosing" I mean taking a threshold dose, juuuust enough to feel it but not much more. For mushrooms, I could do this every 3 days for about 21 days total before noticing a slight decrease in potency, though other people we tested would only have 15 days, and one person never reported a lessening of effects (nor did their pupilary dilation go down which was interesting). For me this is about a fifth to a third of a standard tab of LSD (aiming at 20-35ug), for a standard batch of Psilocybe cubensis it's maybe 0.75-1 gram at the most but I could get away with 500mg of some batches. With Panaeolus cyanescns mushrooms it's more like 200-400mg. For DOM I found the range to be something like 800-1,400mcg, DOB was best done in the ~250mcg range though. DiPT is best mesodosed for me ~12mg, maybe the 10-15mg range in general but this one is tough to feel at a threshold dose, it's exceptionally subtle compared to most other psychedelics. Harmaline, allylescaline, 2C-B, psilacetin and miprocin were all also quite worthwhile as "mesodosing" drugs.

I'm a strong opponent of frequent microdosing schemes, I feel the minimum time between trips of ayahuasca or mushrooms, being 2 weeks, should be respected for microdoses also. You are still taking 4-HO-DMT in your brain, even if the dose seems minute its still a dose of something stronger than we realize that does cause neuroplasticity and shifts in the mind. Its not nothing, or we wouldnt do it.

I personally found mushrooms to only create a 3-4 week tolerance even when I ran blinded tests on people, we couldn't find any noticeable difference waiting at least ~85 hours after the original dose, and could do this for weeks straight. I also found ayahuasca daily to be the most productive for me but I'm kind of a weirdo with all of this, too.

 

[Opana313]

I think mini sessions is where it's at...especially for that type of newbie person that may totally be against drugs, but micro-dosing just isn't working for them - then small mini sessions of 1-2grams maybe twice a month or even once a month, whether or not if they decide to keep on micro dosing.

I strongly feel that better set & setting & complete preparedness for a full blown excursion and recognizing ego game play on 1-3g once or twice a month is a VERY beneficial tool for things like living a mentally healthy and physically healthy life AND anxiety, depression, and addiction...and higher the dose with respect and reverence I think is key for mushrooms or LSD.

Of course you have to just be sober too or steer away from hallucinogens as well, at least for a good while, eventually in order for anything to work.