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EADD Heroin thread v.XXV -- a quarter centuary of threads if not yet a full decade since the 'drought'...

"Prescribe heroin in a medical setting to people suffering from addiction who have not responded to other forms of treatment. This will take the market away from organised criminals and reduce crime to fund addiction. This recommendation recognises that we must disrupt demand, as well as supply to have a real impact. The most chaotic, problematic individuals are also the most lucrative to organised crime groups. A conservative estimate indicated that around 10% of heroin users may account for around 50% of the total illicit market, HAT would therefore have a significant impact on the illicit market. In the West Midlands, we will pilot a Heroin Assisted Treatment service by 2020 which will be supported by a clinical evaluation."

Now THAT is talk.
 
Bleaney said:
think those days have well and truly been and gone - unless by some miracle The Green Party manage to get themselves elected.

Obviously they are by far the most progressive party when it comes to drugs, but I'm not sure if even they would go as far as bringing back scripts for diamorphine for heroin addicts.

Despite how much sense it makes.
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I bet you any money & I am willing to bet you a finger too, if I am wrong I give you permission to cut off my thumb on this one & I am being 100% LEGIT here.

If I went with a few of my mates to a Green Party meeting & we raised the issues we face & pushed The Greens on their Policy of Drug Reform they would turn to the door & run.
I wish I could believe those Hippie lot will actually do something but they are all talk, I would be seen as a Junkie by them & someone who's sick & needs State backed / big pharma "medicine" aka Bupe or Meth.
 
My health is a billion times more at risk from Muslim Gangs who have HUGE Ego's & get upset over "disrespect" & are willing to pull guns on you than I am from Heroin.


When a Green party member, Tory, Reform or Labour member has had a shotgun pushed 3 cm from their face we can talk, till then they can STFU.
 
Perkins : Reborn said:
"Prescribe heroin in a medical setting to people suffering from addiction who have not responded to other forms of treatment. This will take the market away from organised criminals and reduce crime to fund addiction. This recommendation recognises that we must disrupt demand, as well as supply to have a real impact. The most chaotic, problematic individuals are also the most lucrative to organised crime groups. A conservative estimate indicated that around 10% of heroin users may account for around 50% of the total illicit market, HAT would therefore have a significant impact on the illicit market. In the West Midlands, we will pilot a Heroin Assisted Treatment service by 2020 which will be supported by a clinical evaluation."

Now THAT is talk.
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it never happened sadly.

EADD & most of BL think I talk shit, that blue image grab says it all about where I live.
 
Fascinating video.

Mamba and Spice ae both synthetic non-selective CB1/CB2 ligands are they not? But there are THOUSANDS of such non-selective ligands in patents so I'm unsure what is meant by the two brand-names. Because as I have posted a few times, I've seen the instrumental analysis of many hundreds if not thousands of samples and rarely were any two 'batches' the same. It might be one ligand for a few weeks then another one, then another one and so on. These were mostly seized from the streets of Greater Manchester (but not all).

But the NAMES have been around since the 1990s. For a few years a group in Germany had found a potent CB1 selective ligand (in a patent) that didn't show up on drug tests so both Spice and Mamba were originally sold as 'herbal highs' but cleverly, the German group only put in a tiny amount so for a few year there was a lively on-line discussion as to if they were actually active.

The commonality of all of the novel ligands is their extreme potency and lack of any toxicity data. In nations without some form of CSA laws, I can only assume that the producst being made constantly change to stay ahead of the legal control. But that's a guess based on the simple logic that making the same thing again and again for years is going to be cheaper as the chemists optimize the synteses and can order the precursors in larger amounts.

At least around here £5 gets enough material to remain wasted for twelve hours or so. Certainly I've overheard users comparing batches and sharing who had the best stuff on a given day. More than once a crack user has told me in all seriousness that if they had a reliable supply of Spice, they wouln't bother wirh crack. Now I thought that maybe this was an isolated case but since then, several other have told me the same thing. I did mention this elsewhere but nobody commented on it. Is this normal or merely a function of the users who mentioned it all having come from using crack and not using opioids.

I guess if £5 keeps a person wasted for twelve hours, it's cheap. Now I would argue that the subjective effects are unpleasent, but then I find cannabis too much so I'm not really in a position to compare.

Obviously it's impossible to tell what drug(s) a person may have consumed but it seems more or less exactly what I saw in Piccadilly Gardens years ago and it was almost always those synthetic CB ligands. Which given how novel they are and how badly syntheized they are along with no objective way to test toxicity will wind up in deaths.

I suggest that the low cost might mean users don't end up in the low-level crime associated with opiate and cocaine usage. That public order offences are likely to be the most common crime. But that is just my hypothesis.
 
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These bizarre postures people become frozen in must presumably be some kind of extreme version of nodding?

I mean, even on opiates, I fortunately always consumed in private, in the comfort and safety of my own home, I'd always be at least sitting down, but I'd still nod out in some strange unnatural postures.

Nothing like the natural postures the body would fall into with natural sleep.

And with all these spice heads in Manchester or Birmingham, it never seems to occur to them to sit or lie down somewhere out of the way first, so they end up nodding out still semi standing, making a hideous spectacle of themselves, in the most bizarre postures imaginable?

I presume that is what is happening with all of these Zombified postures seen many times in clips of Kensignton Philadelphia, and now apparently in Birmingham UK city centre. Following on from the 'epidemic' in Manchester city centre a few years ago.
 
Nodding doesn't tend to leave people contorted in the same way as the spice variants. One problem is falling asleep on a limb for too long; I lost the use of my right hand for weeks to a combination of opium and brandy. But this isn't quite the same. These people were folded backward in the middle of the street.
 
Perkins : Reborn said:
But this isn't quite the same.
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No - it's far more extreme. But would you say it's the same sort of 'mechanisms' or 'reactions' going on, not sure how to word things tbh, but obviously to a far more extreme extent than 'just' opiates?

I have no idea how to explain or account for what is going on otherwise.
 
I have no experience of these chemicals, and I'm glad I never have.

I've woken up in an ambulance and on a drip from heroin, but the state that spice addicts get to appears to be total oblivion, and I'd be too tempted to sample that.
 
It never did that for me, although I only used tiny amounts and even that would be enough to set my mind racing uncontrollably.

Maybe if you just keep consuming more and more you get past that, and end up like these bizarre statues of people.

Like you, I have no experience of taking things to that level. Unlike you, I'd have to temptation to either though.
 
I got a free sample of one of the alphabet synth 'noids. It was like a shitty dissociative, although my girlfriend loved it. Never bought any.

But the complete oblivion of spice was something I felt overwhelmed by. Imagine something that'll just obliterate your conscious life. Worse than phenazepam and all the other mutant benzos.
 
@Bleaney - Yep, that whole 'zombie walk' behavior seems specific to intoxication produced by those non-selective CB1/CB2 ligands, AFAIK. It's been noted by the media of every major city in which such products are freely available It's not unique to the UK or indeed Europe.

I suggest what we observe is akinesia. Certainly it's been noted in studies of various different classes of unselective CB1/CB2 ligands.

Or, put another way, the only other group I've seen who demonstrated that symptom were people who had been prescribed antipsychoic medications for years, Nowhere nearly as pronounced but I admit it was my first throught. Now given we don't have enough data to understand how these synthetics impact humans it's unclear if the ultimate cause is the blockade of dopamine receptors in this case.
 
Sorry to EADD for my temper and ranting, the rattle off that medication is horrendous and you feel so sick, the physical part of the heroin withdrawal is like nothing I've known before, only 2-3 hours of withdrawal felt to the body easily equal to a heroin rattle 60 hours in. I am 2/3rd's into 0.3g of usual quality UK smack and the second my dealer saw me he said "You look sick" and he could tell in 2 seconds how ill I was.

The withdrawals off this new type of subby is horrendous and I will never touch it again, it's better to do the typical withdrawal than get a habit on the "Espy" as it'll literally put any addict crying on the floor.
A 48 hour withdrawal from that stuff wouldn't be a good thing, if I hadn't got heroin waiting for me I would have been out shoplifting this evening and if I needed to use violence to get it done I would have and I've never done that in 24 years.

@Perkins : Reborn
How the fuck you do a rattle on this stuff? You are 100% Stoic in your life, I have nothing but RESPECT for you and I am serious here, make no mistake about it.
 
Perkins : Reborn said:
As Long (ha-ha) as you identify with the current Anton Long, then there's no real problem, but I know and understand that you're feeling like shit.

I've spoken to non drug users about British pharmacies from the turn of the century, and explained that they might get prescribed heroin for a cold. They tend to say 'I wouldn't do it', but then I try to explain that heroin was just another medicine and wasn't considered to be a dangerous drug. Most of them can't believe it, but will enthusiastically discuss different brands of ibuprofen.
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'Enthusiastically discuss different brands of ibuprofen ' made me chuckle.

Like we do about the kinds with codeine in it and which one gives a better yield post processing? 🤔

Probably not.
 
Perkins : Reborn said:
I have no experience of these chemicals, and I'm glad I never have.

I've woken up in an ambulance and on a drip from heroin, but the state that spice addicts get to appears to be total oblivion, and I'd be too tempted to sample that.
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Seems like beyond oblivion.

Seems like they just want to be 'un-alive' for a while. It's really sad. Must be so miserable.

I like to journey deep into my head and also get far out of it too. I don't want to black out for hours and wake up in my own piss and shit with no shoes.

Years ago if you asked me if one drug is better than another, is heroin worse than weed I would have to say no. But now I would definitely say some drugs are better or worse either way.

And 100% I'll take a gram of decent #4 over a barrel of spice any day. (#3 also equally acceptable 😉)
 
4DQSAR said:
@Bleaney - Yep, that whole 'zombie walk' behavior seems specific to intoxication produced by those non-selective CB1/CB2 ligands, AFAIK. It's been noted by the media of every major city in which such products are freely available It's not unique to the UK or indeed Europe.

I suggest what we observe is akinesia. Certainly it's been noted in studies of various different classes of unselective CB1/CB2 ligands.

Or, put another way, the only other group I've seen who demonstrated that symptom were people who had been prescribed antipsychoic medications for years, Nowhere nearly as pronounced but I admit it was my first throught. Now given we don't have enough data to understand how these synthetics impact humans it's unclear if the ultimate cause is the blockade of dopamine receptors in this case.
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It's not just specific to spice variants though..

The exact same postures in homeless drug addicts have probably been most widely seen and filmed in Kensignton, Philadelphia over recent years.

The drug responsible over there has the street name of 'tranq' and that is a mixture of fent and xylazine.

The scale of things is totally unlike the UK cities where there's generally small groups or lone people affected, it's entire blocks -and masses of people, with total devastation everywhere you look!

I think things were at their worst in Kensignton, Philadelphia maybe 3 years or so ago, I think there was a 'clean up' within the last 12 months or so. Not sure what they did with all the addicts and dealers, or why they let things get to that stage in the first place.

In other US cities that have their roughest neighbourhoods devastated by homelessness like The Tenderloin in San Fransisco and Skid Row in LA, I gather that fent has become a huge problem everywhere, but 'tranq' doesn't seem to have hit other US cities as bad as it hit Kensignton, Philadelphia, AFAIK.
 
Bleaney said:
And with all these spice heads in Manchester or Birmingham, it never seems to occur to them to sit or lie down somewhere out of the way first, so they end up nodding out still semi standing, making a hideous spectacle of themselves, in the most bizarre postures imaginable?
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They make all the Hatha Yoga Moms jealous with the positions they can bend their body into.
 
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