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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Kratom 7-OH to morphine equivalent dosage?

I think one factor that makes it hard to do a comparison is that the stated doses of 7oh in a product are so widely inaccurate. When you get a pharmaceutical pill, you know how many mgs you are getting, but a "10mg" 7oh might vary greatly, and who is to say how good the manufacturing process was?
It's strong for sure in a morphine sort of way, but it also has a wide range of different effects on non-opioid neuro transmitters. Hard to quantify that and it can be pretty negative in some ways that true opioids aren't. It hasn't been well studied. I think that makes comparing its strength to morphine not so straight-forward.
Personally, 7oh creates more craving for me but that isn't any scientific observation. YMMV
Some people say it creates tolerance faster and is worse for withdrawal.
 
It is hard to create a MME value for this. 7-OH works differently between tolerant and naive.

I believe that 1mg 7-OH equals 1mg Morphine but the 7-OH binds to the mu receptors quicker and better PO. Still that does not change the strength value.

One big issue with 7-OH is how fast the body builds a physical & mental dependence. This process takes much longer with traditional opioids. Trying to convert back to opioids is difficult b/c they will feel as if the "mental results" are less than expected.

What makes establishing a MME value for 7-OH difficult is how well it binds to the opioid receptors. The brain's expectation of "results" becomes misleading and the actual "physical" dependence results are not taken into consideration. Opioids will satisfy "physical dependence" longer than 7-OH mg vs mg.

7-OH would make a good pain management drug. It is a shame it will be banned and labeled schedule 1 making a hard reversal comeback for medical use. 7-OH could be constructed into a IR & ER tablet version where it has an outer layer that is IR and the center is ER.
 
Find an MME calculator online. I believe it's 4.7 times stronger than morphine but I'm not positive. I think it's roughly on par with buprenorphine I could be wrong there too though, so don't quote me on either of these haha. I've been trying to find out the same thing though.
 
IME for recreational effects, 7oh is about 2x as potent as morphine mg for mg.
 
rplate81 said:
Find an MME calculator online. I believe it's 4.7 times stronger than morphine but I'm not positive. I think it's roughly on par with buprenorphine I could be wrong there too though, so don't quote me on either of these haha. I've been trying to find out the same thing though.
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On par with bupe would be insane as bupe is ~80x morphine
 
I never feel like MME is the full story, though. I mean, that's just raw strength per milligram, ability to bind to opioid receptors, which is very useful to know, but more important is the quality of the high. Fentanyl must have a massive MME compared to oxycodone, but would anyone say it was a better high?
And I find the whole idea of MME a little confusing when it comes to a partial agonist like kratom. Plus kratom has effects upon other neuroreceptora than true opioids. But I'm not sure how much that applies to 7 oh which has had the other alkaloids of kratom stripped out.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue of MME.
 
I made a similar post not too long ago

TheLightBringer

Thread '7-OH potency in humans relative to morphine?'

Posting this here since I got no response in another thread

from using google it seems as if 7-OH is around 13x more potent than morphine. Seems a bit too high for what people are describing no?
I cant see how it would be 13x stronger when non tolerant users report taking 25mg their first time which would be equivalent to 325mg oral morphine and being fine

Theyre probably quoting this study which stated 7-oh is 13 fold more potent than morphine and 46 fold more potent than mitragynine

Evaluation of the rewarding effects of mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine in an intracranial self-stimulation procedure in male and female rats - PMC

Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa Korth.) has been used in Southeast Asia for hundreds of years to increase energy, for relaxation, and to diminish opioid withdrawal. Kratom use has recently spread to Western countries. Kratom could potentially be used for ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

However this was done in guinea pigs and with...
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If I interpreted the study correctly then I assume 7-OH is ~1-2x the potency of morphine
 
chippermonk said:
I never feel like MME is the full story, though. I mean, that's just raw strength per milligram, ability to bind to opioid receptors, which is very useful to know, but more important is the quality of the high. Fentanyl must have a massive MME compared to oxycodone, but would anyone say it was a better high?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here.
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Isnt MME primarily used as a way to compare the relative analgesia between Opioids? It makes sense from a clinical standpoint

But I agree on the part that an equivalent dosage of fentanyl vs morphine will not feel as good. I also think the pursuit of a Opioid that is as non-euphoric and non-addictive as possible is dumb since a great part of analgesia that is often not spoken about is the euphoric aspect making you not ”care” as much that youre in pain or whatever shitty situation youre in.

On paper a 100ug IV fentanyl dosage should give you as much analgesia as 10mg morphine ignoring the differences in half life. Yet I would bet that the morphine would show greater relief from the cognitive consequences of physical pain over fentanyl
 
With that said fentanyl is absolutely a good drug from a clinical standpoint with significantly lower incidence of side effects compared to morphine.

Less respiratory depression (at equivalent dosages), less histamine release, less allergic reactions, short acting and great for surgeries
 
TheLightBringer said:
Isnt MME primarily used as a way to compare the relative analgesia between Opioids? It makes sense from a clinical standpoint

But I agree on the part that an equivalent dosage of fentanyl vs morphine will not feel as good. I also think the pursuit of a Opioid that is as non-euphoric and non-addictive as possible is dumb since a great part of analgesia that is often not spoken about is the euphoric aspect making you not ”care” as much that youre in pain or whatever shitty situation youre in.

On paper a 100ug IV fentanyl dosage should give you as much analgesia as 10mg morphine ignoring the differences in half life. Yet I would bet that the morphine would show greater relief from the cognitive consequences of physical pain over fentanyl
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My brain doesn't feel like delving deeply into that study you posted ( maybe tomorrow 😉) but it seemed like they weren't talking about MME, they were talking about how "rewarding" morphine, mitragynine, and 7 oh were in comparison to each other. And their conclusion was that mitragynine and 7oh are not rewarding and don't have abuse potential. Umm, we know that isn't true. That's what they said under "Conclusions" How the hell did they come up with that conclusion?
 
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chippermonk said:
My brain doesn't feel like delving deeply into that study you posted ( maybe tomorrow 😉) but it seemed like they weren't talking about MME, they were talking about how "rewarding" morphine, mitragynine, and 7 oh were in comparison to each other. And their conclusion was that mitragynine and 7oh are not rewarding and don't have abuse potential. Umm, we know that isn't true. That's what they said under "Conclusions" How the hell did they come up with that conclusion?
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If you click my post there are 2 studies posted in there, the latter one is a study that goes over the EC50.

EC50 is the concentration of a substance needed to reach half-maximal activation of a receptor

For 7-OH the EC50 was 34nM, then we have to look at the Molar Mass of 7-HydroxyMitragynine and multiply it by 34nM to get the amount. Which ends up being 0.014093mg 7-OH to activate the μ opioid receptor

Now we check morphines EC50 and see that its stated to be between 50 - 100nm (altough conflicting because different sources state different potency) we then multiply the Molar Mass of morphine by both 50 and 100nm and get a range of around 0.014267 - 0.028534mg morphine to activate the μ opioid receptor.

So ”on paper” 7-OH is in a range of ~1-2x the potency of morphine at the receptor site, or more correctly 1 to 1/2 the amount of 7-OH is required for half-maximal activation of the μ opioid receptor compared to morphine
 
TheLightBringer said:
On par with bupe would be insane as bupe is ~80x morphine
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I could totally be incorrect, but I've always been under the impression that 1 mg of buprenorphine is equivalent to 30 mg morphine.

Ironically I was in the ER couple months ago for some severe spine pain due to herniated discs scoliosis Etc. I just Taken 2 mg of buprenorphine which is my current dose an hour before I got there.

I didn't even ask for it, as I am on buprenorphine maintenance, but they ended up giving me a 4 mg intra muscle shot of morphine and I swear I felt it somewhat.

Seemed comparable to taking like 10 mg Norco. Had I know that they would have given it to me I would not have taken my bupe.

*EDIT: as most of you might know this, but bupenorphine & kratom/7oh are partial opioid Agonists meaning that they don't fully excite the opioid receptors whereas full Agonist like morphine oxy Etc will fully excite those receptors and alsodo not have a ceilingeffect.

If a person has buprenorphine in their system it will act as a blockade if somebody was to use a full agonist opioid.

Precipitated withdrawals occur when somebody has only a full agonist in their system and takes buprenorphine too soon, but if the person already has buprenorphine in their system and takes a full agonist they will not get precipitated withdrawals, it will just take more of that full opioid agonist to get any feeling out of it. It's tricky & I still do not understand it completely.
 
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Impossible to say these kind of things lmao the highs aren’t even the same

Morphines a lot better for one thing even if 7oh is “stronger” based on some obscure in vivo rat study

These numbers don’t mean a lot in the real world for the average practical end user lol it’ll be different for everyone
 
Voxide said:
Impossible to say these kind of things lmao the highs aren’t even the same

Morphines a lot better for one thing even if 7oh is “stronger” based on some obscure in vivo rat study

These numbers don’t mean a lot in the real world for the average practical end user lol it’ll be different for everyone
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Of course, but trying to find an average potency for harm reduction is important. Opioids like buprenorphine or fentanyl feel completely different from morphine as well but knowing that theyre respectively 80x and 100x morphine means a lot in the real world
 
chippermonk said:
I never feel like MME is the full story, though. I mean, that's just raw strength per milligram, ability to bind to opioid receptors, which is very useful to know, but more important is the quality of the high. Fentanyl must have a massive MME compared to oxycodone, but would anyone say it was a better high?
And I find the whole idea of MME a little confusing when it comes to a partial agonist like kratom. Plus kratom has effects upon other neuroreceptora than true opioids. But I'm not sure how much that applies to 7 oh which has had the other alkaloids of kratom stripped out.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue of MME.
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I'm not looking to get high, I'm looking for pain management.
 
TheLightBringer said:
Of course, but trying to find an average potency for harm reduction is important. Opioids like buprenorphine or fentanyl feel completely different from morphine as well but knowing that theyre respectively 80x and 100x morphine means a lot in the real world
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Right I mean dose for dose milligram for milligram there will always be a stronger and weaker one but being able to nail down “alright 32.5mg of oxycodone is what it take for me to feel like I shot 19.625mg morphine” just isn’t gonna practically happen lol
 
Voxide said:
Right I mean dose for dose milligram for milligram there will always be a stronger and weaker one but being able to nail down “alright 32.5mg of oxycodone is what it take for me to feel like I shot 19.625mg morphine” just isn’t gonna practically happen lol
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I see an image in my mind of an IV drug user that precisely measures his doses because he wants to be safe 😂.
 
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