7OH tolerance

[Them Witches]

@Them Witches - I would certainly like to see a proper instrumental analysis of products being sold AS -OHM because from what I hear, preparative chromatorgrpahy is the only way to obtain a pure product but if a side-product is active and can be isolated, would you throw it away or added to the wholesale material? I've heard someone HAS found a much safer route than the two offered by the original Japanese (?) researchers which makes use of KH2SO5 (Oxone)... but even with that, yield is around 65% at best.

What do we know about mitragynine pseudoindoxyl other than it having an extremely high (low) affinity for the MOR? Is there research that may be able to spot it in product?

My concurred proxy my friend... What is the reason why "international big pharma" has dropped the ball on Kratom, 7-OH, and hybrid 7-OH+PI...? That's what I would like to know upfront. There should be a long list of medical interventions with 7-OH with too many to choose from patient studies, the "pros & cons" of 7-OH, we know everything about everything else to the fullest extent. My other upfront question is how come Germany was not adding 7-OH+PI to it's home run hits in the early 1900's? Germany made Methadone because they didn't want to have to struggle to obtain raw opium during a war. Germany made about everything know to man and no Kratom or 7-OH.

Is 7-OH something that was supposed to be not mentioned on the world's fronts for all to hear..? We do not have to grow a ton of poppy only. We can grow a ton of Kratom too.

As far as purity I am all game here. I like Pseudoindoxyl mixed with 7-OH. It is the whole package as far as the subject goes.

I am offended that the 3rd opium war is happening in the United States. These wonderful people are "drawing the short straw using nasty RC hybrid fentanyl with Xylazine, and unknown Benzo/barb everywhere so...
why not prescribe 7-OH in a variety of ways -- 7-OH IR, 7-OH ER, 7-OH hybrid IR outer shell & ER inner core, 7-OH+PI all versions again, sublingual, buccal, etc.

If I was MAT, I would change up the Methadone and Suboxone ritual. Offer 7-OH at the beginning because they typically start at 30mg of Methadone. Stop 7-OH and get a reasonable Methadone MME daily dose. After that is done, offer 7-OH for urges to use relating to the case per patient.

Same with pain management. Offer 7-OH for bad breakthru days to help the patient get through without having to increase the narcotic MME. A perfect register for tapering and opioid rotation. It would add another opioid (opioid type) to the narcotics list. There are not a lot of options in the pain medicine stock for out-patient long-term treatment use.

I would like to see a "proper and accurate" medical trials performed with 7-OH for opioid prescribed patients :
>> opioid naive, honeymoon opioid tolerance, long-term opioid tolerant, pain management, and pain management rotation. Adding in the medical trials, acute post-op pain.

 

[4DQSAR]

@Them Witches - It's important to know that many opioids that were introduced into clinical use ended up being taken off the market not because they didn't work but because they didn't offer any obvious clinical advantage. Obviously, I could reel off a long list of opioids that appeared and disappeared for that reason if you want them. I would bet £1 that oliceridine (Olinvyk) will be next. Yes it's a biased agonist but since it isn't orally active, it's only being used to treat ACUTE pain on an in-patient basis. Clinicians are unlikely to be concerned about tolerance and dependence IF it's only for acute pain.

I'm sure in certain cases they would have offered certain advantages but clinicians are far more likely to prescribe a medication they have experience of. BUT YMMV.

It seems studies of kratom alkaloids are ongoing but it appears to affect various liver enzymes which then means if a patient is prescribed medication for comorbidities, it would be one more thing to consider.

So it's not that human trials haven't taken place BUT as I always remind people, at the moment it is not a legal requirement for pharmacutical companies to publish ALL human trils be they positive or negative. That's why I support www.alltrials.net

 

[Them Witches]

For my own self, I wonder if it means even just low level occasional use can lead to more pain sensitivity and depression.

OIH is a real thing. IMO it is hard to reach this extent unless the patient has kept a MME over 200-270mme. The extent of "kept" I am talking for over 5-7 years at least. I know people on the street illicitly will say I use way more than that...lol, I am not comparing anything just saying that taking 100% of the daily dose for 5-7 years is different as for physical dependency goes and as far as pain relief goes. Using dope is not the same to me. The withdrawals from a patient that has had 100% daily dosage of 435-615mme like myself over the past 15 years is bad news. It was much lower when I was a child starting at age 7 but overall it has been 40 years of pain management. I am sure AWS would be a bitch for me.

It seems like you are saying that even though you take have been taking high doses for a long time that you still get good effects from them, that your need to increase doses has plateaued?

No not my point. I do not get the desired effects I want from opioids anymore. What they do for pain is god-send even decade after decades the shit still works. It works as long as I stay busy, productive, keep a positive routine daily, exercise where I can on my body, read books, pray, fishing, race cars, forums. Just have to stay busy, take care of head, and keep things reasonable not forgetting my past at all costs. I have found that good pain relief can come from taking smaller or reasonable doses of other medications with opioids -- Clonidine, Ativan, Gabapentin, Cyclobenzaprine, Vistaril PAM, Promethazine, Droperidol, Lunesta, Soma, Phenobarbital, Busbar, Haldol, Zoloft

My need to titrate has not plateaued. I would love to increase my dosage. I have a gentleman's agreement with my doctor that we will cap the dosage right now for as long as possible. I have no complaints with it. I think it is necessary for long-term opioid treatment. It is like tapering walking forward. I know unlike many that opioids have a finicky therapeutic baseline to where they will not work any better by taking more. Sometimes less is more. Sometimes it's not. Introducing interventional pain management is best if the patient has been on opioids long-term after 20 years.

Back to the subject, my last two surgeries the pain was not managed well. The hospital by law could not Rx anymore pain meds because of my low blood pressure and bradycardia yet I was perfectly awake uncomfortable. I made a plan to replace Diluadid with Methadone to take as a foundation for Roxicodone. The Methadone keeps the Roxicodone from dropping below a certain point that provides better sleep for a long-term opioid patients. Methadone long-term is better for pain that Diluadid.

 

[Them Witches]

@Them Witches - It's important to know that many opioids that were introduced into clinical use ended up being taken off the market not because they didn't work but because they didn't offer any obvious clinical advantage. Obviously, I could reel off a long list of opioids that appeared and disappeared for that reason if you want them. I would bet £1 that oliceridine (Olinvyk) will be next. Yes it's a biased agonist but since it isn't orally active, it's only being used to treat ACUTE pain on an in-patient basis. Clinicians are unlikely to be concerned about tolerance and dependence IF it's only for acute pain.

I'm sure in certain cases they would have offered certain advantages but clinicians are far more likely to prescribe a medication they have experience of. BUT YMMV.

It seems studies of kratom alkaloids are ongoing but it appears to affect various liver enzymes which then means if a patient is prescribed medication for comorbidities, it would be one more thing to consider.

So it's not that human trials haven't taken place BUT as I always remind people, at the moment it is not a legal requirement for pharmacutical companies to publish ALL human trils be they positive or negative. That's why I support www.alltrials.net

I would love to have a list of drugs that didn't make it to market. Opioids, benzos, alpha-2, sedative/hypnotics, muscle relaxers, tranquilizers... all of all them please.

 

[4DQSAR]

Oh, there really are hundreds. Just look at the Annual Report In Medicinal Chemistry in which new medicines that were undergoing human trials are discussed.

Out of maybe 100 candidates, I don't think more than two per year ended up making it into the PDR (US), BNF (UK) or whatever other nations use to list all prescribable medications.

Analgesics and sedative/hypnotics having their own chapters because, one assumes, in theory at least, such medicines could be 'blockbusters'.

I recall Etifoxine being in the ARiNC and while it DID get used in some nations, the US wasn't one of them.

I think the best example of an opioid I know of is phenazocine (Prinadol/Narphen). I remember it because evidently the makers spent a lot on adverts in specialist journals such as in MIMS. Full page ads for months. But it was taken off the market within 3-4 years because it didn't have any significant clinical advantages.

Janssen had an answer to that issue - they outright LIED which resulted in thousands of deaths.

 

[Them Witches]

phenazocine (Prinadol/Narphen)

1945 World War 2 ended and operation "paperclip" divided the German scientists with the US and Russia. Then in the 1950's a strong push for RC's was underway.

I would love to be test subject. I would do it for free if they kept it interesting and gave me take homes lol...

 

[4DQSAR]

1945 World War 2 ended and operation "paperclip" divided the German scientists with the US and Russia. Then in the 1950's a strong push for RC's was underway.

I would love to be test subject. I would do it for free if they kept it interesting and gave me take homes lol...

Guinea Pig Zero Jobzine

STATEMENT OF PURPOSE Guinea Pig Zero is an occupational jobzine for people who are used as medical or pharmaceutical research subjects. Its various sections are devoted to bioethics, historical...

guineapigzero.com

There you are - a jobzene for people who take part in clinical studies as a 'career' of sorts. You do have the right to refuse, but don't forget, you sign away any right to sue if you are harmed.

 

[TinFoilFez]

As someone suffering a rotten spine, with all the back, muscle and nerve pain, I implore you, get him to try something else. I tried 7OH and it has its place - I agree 100% with ThemWitches. But the withdrawal would take out superman. You don't want anything to do with the withdrawal. The mental shit will kill him if the physical doesn't. Please research how sick people get before he takes it, because it's really bad. I needed actual spiritual help (religious stuff) to get me through it. As a long time opiate user, this was the worst it's been. I can't knowingly see someone who's never taken it, and not warn them about the withdrawal. It's the big bad wolf man.

After finally getting the 7OH out of my system I tried "Kratom Extract" tablets. Dissolvable. They work for pain. No high though, but if he has legit pain there should be no complaints. Its expensive. Opia has "Kratom Extract" and "Mitragynine Extract" and "Mitragynine" tablets. They're all the same thing just different names. I think its Opia staying ahead of the naming game. Good luck!

 

[Them Witches]

Guinea Pig Zero Jobzine

STATEMENT OF PURPOSE Guinea Pig Zero is an occupational jobzine for people who are used as medical or pharmaceutical research subjects. Its various sections are devoted to bioethics, historical...

guineapigzero.com

There you are - a jobzene for people who take part in clinical studies as a 'career' of sorts. You do have the right to refuse, but don't forget, you sign away any right to sue if you are harmed.

Of shit. A bucket to hell might as well enjoy the ride.

 

[TinFoilFez]

Of shit. A bucket to hell might as well enjoy the ride.

Hey you - me again - I'm glad you're up. Hope you don't mind a question. If 7OH is banned and taken from the shelves, how are they still able to sell it online? It's everywhere!

 

[Them Witches]

Hey you - me again - I'm glad you're up. Hope you don't mind a question. If 7OH is banned and taken from the shelves, how are they still able to sell it online? It's everywhere!

I cannot account for every smoke shop/head shop. The ones in my area have taken off the shelves and sell it to certain previous customers. Most of these shops are own buy people not directly from the US and they do not want it to be on the shelves on day and by night the laws change. Tomorrow morning the open the shop and catch a charge closing the shop. They do not want the smoke,

This is smart because undercovers doing recon think the shop no longer carries it on the shelves.

I cannot comment on anything else except I still get 7-OH at 15-20% less than what it costs to order it online per case basis in the shop I frequent. Because not many people are going in for it because it is off the shelves they have started giving packs for free and on the front to keep my business. They still have garbage bags full of every other brand but a small batch of Opia left. I will not buy anything but Opia.

 

[TinFoilFez]

I cannot account for every smoke shop/head shop. The ones in my area have taken off the shelves and sell it to certain previous customers. Most of these shops are own buy people not directly from the US and they do not want it to be on the shelves on day and by night the laws change. Tomorrow morning the open the shop and catch a charge closing the shop. They do not want the smoke,

This is smart because undercovers doing recon think the shop no longer carries it on the shelves.

I cannot comment on anything else except I still get 7-OH at 15-20% less than what it costs to order it online per case basis in the shop I frequent. Because not many people are going in for it because it is off the shelves they have started giving packs for free and on the front to keep my business. They still have garbage bags full of every other brand but a small batch of Opia left. I will not buy anything but Opia.

Thank you! I fess up - I bought some from a smoke shop on the FL/AL border. They just wanted to get rid of it. But - the onlline sellers I'm curious about - will they sell to anyone, anywhere? I'm thinking about testing it, and buying a pack of 7OH. See if they sell/ship to Alabama (!). I only buy from Opia too. They have the best rep. I'm a little nervous, but I can always plead ignorance. Thanks again, and have a great day!

 

[Them Witches]

Thank you! I fess up - I bought some from a smoke shop on the FL/AL border. They just wanted to get rid of it. But - the onlline sellers I'm curious about - will they sell to anyone, anywhere? I'm thinking about testing it, and buying a pack of 7OH. See if they sell/ship to Alabama (!). I only buy from Opia too. They have the best rep. I'm a little nervous, but I can always plead ignorance. Thanks again, and have a great day!

Thank you. I hope you enjoy your day as well and life brings you nice things to enjoy.

 

[oclafsto]

Y

I take 5 grams of Kratom 5-6 days a week. Rarely...maybe once every 10-12 days or so I will get high on real opioids.

I purchased some 7OH and took 40 mgs last night. One and a half Opia which were third party tested at 26 mgs per pill. I spaced half a tab every 45 minutes.

I felt good, but not really high. Is that a normal reaction or do I have a high tolerance?

Thanks!

ou have a Kratom tolerance. You need more. Throw away the smoke shop trash and order from vendors. Either way a full 60mh Opia should get you chopped

 

[4DQSAR]

You have a Kratom tolerance. You need more. Throw away the smoke shop trash and order from vendors. Either way a full 60mh Opia should get you chopped

Without instrumental analysis, how does one know if a tablet is genuinely just extract of mitragynine or if additional 7-OHM has been added?

I did look but could find no such data but that could just a failing on my part.

But tolerance can become dependence without the user knowing. I feel that infamous William S. Burroughs description to be as true today as it was when it was written.

 

[oclafsto]

Without instrumental analysis, how does one know if a tablet is genuinely just extract of mitragynine or if additional 7-OHM has been added?

I did look but could find no such data but that could just a failing on my part.

But tolerance can become dependence without the user knowing. I feel that infamous William S. Burroughs description to be as true today as it was when it was written.

Test my Kratom .org gives analysis for most brands

 

[4DQSAR]

Test my Kratom .org gives analysis for most brands

I see no instrumental data on that site. IF they actually submit samples to a specialist laboratory, I know from decades of experience that THEY don't tell you what you have, they return the instumental data and we used ChemOffice to compare the GC-MS fragments and NMR peaks with the calculted values. We posted every single one onto our site so people were free to decide themselves.

The WHOIS data associated with the site doesn't show the owner(s) nor their physical location.

But I think what MOST worries me is that their 'contact us' gives a Gmail address.

In fact I used IO Hunter and there don't appear to be ANY email addresses associated with the domain.

I'm sure I don't need to point out that this amount of obstification is at odds with a site that is supposed to be based on trust.

 

[Psynaught]

Y

ou have a Kratom tolerance. You need more. Throw away the smoke shop trash and order from vendors. Either way a full 60mh Opia should get you chopped

The last thing I need is more, LOL. I definitely have a Kratom tolerance. I have been taking the same dosage for 2 years now. Did not take any today, but I went to dancing with the wife and did some X. I still have quite a few 30 mg Opia. I also just picked up some 80 mg tabs of 7OH that were well reviewed. I might try a little tomorrow night since I tend to feel kind of crappy the day after I do X. I will probably do half of one of the 80 mg tabs.

I am basically stocking up when there is a sale especially since this stuff may well be banned in the future.

 

[Psynaught]

I see no instrumental data on that site. IF they actually submit samples to a specialist laboratory, I know from decades of experience that THEY don't tell you what you have, they return the instumental data and we used ChemOffice to compare the GC-MS fragments and NMR peaks with the calculted values. We posted every single one onto our site so people were free to decide themselves.

The WHOIS data associated with the site doesn't show the owner(s) nor their physical location.

But I think what MOST worries me is that their 'contact us' gives a Gmail address.

In fact I used IO Hunter and there don't appear to be ANY email addresses associated with the domain.

I'm sure I don't need to point out that this amount of obstification is at odds with a site that is supposed to be based on trust.

These are all good points. But they have good and bad grades for the same brand. For example the Opia 30 mg strawberry got a B plus. Other Opia products got lower grades although Opia tends to test better than many brands. I did not look up Ultra 7 on that site, but that brand (80 mg tabs specifically) got very good reviews on Reddit.

Point is I don't think they are hacks just trying to promote any brand for financial gain.

 

[4DQSAR]

Point is I don't think they are hacks just trying to promote any brand for financial gain.

Hard to know if it's unclear where funding comes from.