dl-methamphetamine - What's all the fuss?

[Leprechaun]

INTRO
I've been exploring nootropics and readily available psycho-stimulants to see if really there are differences between the effective, well known stimulants and those niche ones without clear information on whether they are effective.

So now, the big bad scary monster METHAMPHETAMINE has it's turn... It's the molecule that bad teeth, psychosis and zombies are made of... Or so we are told.

Is it really that different? I've smoked it a couple of times and found this is a terrible way to dose. Short pleasant experience (~30 minutes)... followed by 8 hours of flat effect with aimless hyper locomotion and hyper sexuality.

Only once did I find it useful, which was after working a 24 hours shift and I needed to get some work done I promised this was smoked dl-methamphetamine at 40mg. Still, the following week was a write off as I recovered. I've never understood why people would get addicted to it or bother doing it a number of days in a row. Missing sleep and becoming rather manic. Honestly, what's the fun in missing sleep and being unable to function?

I find psychedelics far more interesting as novel experiences, and exercise a far healthier alternative to improving well being than using stimulants on a chronic basis.

Is there any use for it outside of Narcolepsy and difficult to treat ADHD?

So, lets try a 10mg +- 1mg oral dose, early in the morning.

How does it compare to d-amphetamine, phenyl-piracetam, phenylpropylaminopentane, caffeine, 4-FA and n-methyl-cyclazadone?

EXPERIENCE
5:10am - Dose 10mg orally. Empty stomach.
5:30am - Standard workout stack of amino-acids, caffeine and vitamins.
5:40am - Out for 3km run, lovely weather! So nice to have warm weather in the morning again. Don't attribute this good mood to any drug affect.
6:30am - Possibly effective, good mood, increased performance and enjoyment of workout. Could I say this is a product of the drug or just me being in a good mood? Can't differentiate.
8:00am - Noticeable dry mouth, still some push. Getting lots done. Not as sharp as I have been before. Not any different from d-amphetamine tbh, maybe less anxiety.
11:00am - Chase with 200mg of phenylpiracetam. Effects seem to be waning. Still some push.
11:30am - Appetite is fine, no noticed change, two apples.
12:00pm - No change in effects with phenylpiracetam. Final, chase with 5mg dl-methamphetamine, see if there's any impact on sleep. n-methyl-cyclazadone was no problem, even though others complained of inability to sleep.
12:40pm - Minor change with 5mg. Back to a bit of what I felt at 6:30am. Enhanced with warm tea, or maybe it's just the tea. Heart BPM normal, not elevated at all. 69. Bruxism noted throughout.
1:45pm - Laughs with wife, appetite fine, maybe a little reduced? No hunger pangs. Everything feels like there's an urgency to it.
3:30pm - Feeling more exhausted than usual, somewhat nervous, still effective.
5:00pm - Mostly out. There's a sense of being pushed from the inside... not too unpleasant, but not that interesting or nice. Definitely more effective for longer than D-amphetamine at the same dose.
7:00pm - Out.

Sleep pretty normal, about 30 minutes longer to fall asleep than normal. Next day, some remaining awareness and residual effect.

SUMMARY
dl-methamphetamine feels like a long lasting phenyl-piracetam with more body/physical push. n-methyl-cyclazadone feels like a different beast altogether. Hard to pin down a clear difference. I need to try it again, because at the dose I did 10mg + 15mg later, I noticed strange effects similar to dl-meth, but still distinct. Maybe try it later in the day when tired?

Honestly, as predicted, at this dose, dl-meth isn't that different when taken orally to other stimulants. In fact, the euphoria is along the lines of caffeine at the 10mg dose. It is however an absolutely a cleaner experience. Less jitters and less icky feeling than caffeine.

Addiction potential? Well, I guess if you have nothing else to keep you motivated, and/or you use extremely high doses (50mg+), I can see how it's highly addictive. Generally, at high doses, your social interactions will suffer, you will look noticeably "drug affected", you won't sleep much, you'll have manic symptoms, and anyone who wants to live a generally normal life will avoid this. [1]

Additionally, in terms of "nice" effects. It's hard to differentiate it from something like PPAP. At 80mg, PPAP gave a very similar similar nice feeling and improved perception of exercise.

No mental changes were noted at all with dl-meth, however I did notice mental changes with n-methyl-cyclazodone.

END NOTES
I had some issue with using dexedrine (d=amphetamine). In that I would want to keep some for a rainy day, but due to it giving a nice boost with physical activity, the "wanting" sensation generally just had me dose up. Wasn't liking my relationship with it. I didn't really enjoy its effects directly. When running, the post run high was dulled and I was generally a little tense, without the relaxing effects of a long run or gym session.

The same effect is felt on dl-meth, but to a lesser extent.

So what next... it doesn't stand up to LSD, 2C-B, Mescaline or any other of the psychedelics classic or new. But, if you need that extra push, for whatever reason, dl-meth is still the best stimulant out there. But be mindful, tolerance to its effects appears quickly, same as Caffeine.

The reason for the taboo and hype around dl-meth? Unlike amphetamine, it's easy to make, it can be smoked and injected readily, it's reinforcing when smoked or injected. In the poorly educated and low social economic circles, people are pre-disposed to use for many reasons (trauma, debt, lack of drug education, few social or economic options), and thus poor relationships with drugs develop.[1][2]

In terms of drug effect, if given to me blind, I am not sure I could distinguish it from 10mg n-methyl-cycladone, d-amphetamine or amphetamine salts.

And, in fact, low dose meth-amphetamine has been studied to be a nootropic in and of itself[3]

FURTHER READING :
[1] https://www.opensocietyfoundations....ction-and-lessons-crack-hysteria-20140220.pdf
[2] https://archive.org/details/fromchocolateto000weil
[3] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4939399/

NOTE: phenyl-piracetam, phenylpropylaminopentane and n-methyl-cyclazadone are all legally available for personal use as medicines with no legal controls. They could possibly fall under an analogue or NPS act if someone would seek to sell these for significant financial gain.

VS AMPHETAMINE
dl-methamphetamine is such a long thing... Almost identical to Amphetamine, yet still distinct. I can see why Amphetamine is preferred in many ways, with oral doses of 10-15mg you get a similar experience that is over in 5-6 hours. Methamphetamine just lasts so long, even 12 hours later it's still noticeable.

I have far less interest in taking methamphetamine again than amphetamine.

And thus the book closes on this topic.

 

[KurtAurelius]

Merely a opinion from skimming “facts” but I’ve always thought Methamphetamine has been overhyped or fearmongered into oblivion.

A crass comparison but like morphine to Diamorphine, just a little structural change for more absorption in the brain.

^ yes really lacking nuance as there is more established changes, but the utility of both Amphetamine and Methampheatamine are very similar, merely a half life difference and a current ongoing neurotoxicity debate.

But at established medical doses, it will not present as some crazy drug. It’s a very subtle and smooth stimulant.

If you IV many times beyond medical doses, redose, don’t sleep, eat, stay in a dark room etc you are facilitating the common “meth” head. The fallacy here is blaming the drug when similar would be achieved from other stimulants. The only point I see worthy of contention is the duration can be a issue.

The dopamine system does seem overhyped for pleasure imo, I should know far more as someone with a disregulated system but alas it’s clear that pleasure isn’t really a summary for it.

And the behaviour that presents from artificially modulating it is odd at best.

Of course individualism will present the opinions of what is a pleasurable substance.

I love stimulants because they make my mind quiet and be able to hone in. But I’d pick MDMA or Opioids for Euphoria any day.

I feel like with Cocaine, Methylphenidate, and Amphetamine and Meth that the doses you need to use to achieve pleasure JUST from the drug itself..

Far exceeds safety, and utility and makes the substances become risky and not worth the consequences.

But merely an opinion of mine.

 

[Leprechaun]

Merely a opinion from skimming “facts” but I’ve always thought Methamphetamine has been overhyped or fearmongered into oblivion.

A crass comparison but like morphine to Diamorphine, just a little structural change for more absorption in the brain.

^ yes really lacking nuance as there is more established changes, but the utility of both Amphetamine and Methampheatamine are very similar, merely a half life difference and a current ongoing neurotoxicity debate.

But at established medical doses, it will not present as some crazy drug. It’s a very subtle and smooth stimulant.

If you IV many times beyond medical doses, redose, don’t sleep, eat, stay in a dark room etc you are facilitating the common “meth” head. The fallacy here is blaming the drug when similar would be achieved from other stimulants. The only point I see worthy of contention is the duration can be a issue.

The dopamine system does seem overhyped for pleasure imo, I should know far more as someone with a disregulated system but alas it’s clear that pleasure isn’t really a summary for it.

And the behaviour that presents from artificially modulating it is odd at best.

Of course individualism will present the opinions of what is a pleasurable substance.

I love stimulants because they make my mind quiet and be able to hone in. But I’d pick MDMA or Opioids for Euphoria any day.

I feel like with Cocaine, Methylphenidate, and Amphetamine and Meth that the doses you need to use to achieve pleasure JUST from the drug itself..

Far exceeds safety, and utility and makes the substances become risky and not worth the consequences.

But merely an opinion of mine.

Indeed, we both agree that the entire "meth" narrative is more a product of
1. Duration
2. Lack of education around use
3. Very easy manufacturing process
4. You can't tax black market meth-amphetamine (This is the biggest one)

Additionally, you make a point of stimulants triggering a reward centre or pleasure centre.

While on true stimulants, have you had a "pleasurable" experience. In a sense, yes. But nothing like the pleasure of say 2C-B and MDMA, which don't work on the same reward/pleasure systems.

The biggest problem with the "pleasure" theory of dopamine is, when someone punches you in the face, the same dopamine, epinephrine (adrenaline) surge occurs. Yet we don't all go out repeatedly wanting to smash our heads against the wall.

So thus, some new ideas around stimulant habituation and addiction has appeared, and it revolves around the sense of insight and reinforcement around "education"

Here's an excellent video detailing this theory :

 

[KurtAurelius]

Indeed, we both agree that the entire "meth" narrative is more a product of
1. Duration
2. Lack of education around use
3. Very easy manufacturing process
4. You can't tax black market meth-amphetamine (This is the biggest one)

Additionally, you make a point of stimulants triggering a reward centre or pleasure centre.

While on true stimulants, have you had a "pleasurable" experience. In a sense, yes. But nothing like the pleasure of say 2C-B and MDMA, which don't work on the same reward/pleasure systems.

The biggest problem with the "pleasure" theory of dopamine is, when someone punches you in the face, the same dopamine, epinephrine (adrenaline) surge occurs. Yet we don't all go out repeatedly wanting to smash our heads against the wall.

So thus, some new ideas around stimulant habituation and addiction has appeared, and it revolves around the sense of insight and reinforcement around "education"

Here's an excellent video detailing this theory :

Thanks for such a detailed reply and linking the video! Very intriguing

 

[Psychonauticunt]

Interesting read! You raise many defensible points, thanks for that.

I agree with a great deal of your observations.:
My experience with stimulants covers quite a bit of all of d-amp, dl-amp, meth, and methylphenidate at both therapeutic doses of pharmaceuticals to massively supratherapeutic, accumulating doses. Then there's a whole heap of other stimulating drugs which typically present with more intoxicating cognitive effects, including euphoria. The ones I mentioned are distinctly clear-headed and, as a result, more functional stimulants, and less recreational.

For me, large doses of these stimulants are not rewarding in and of themselves. They may indirectly be recreational, if elevated performance or energy are central to whatever you're doing. Video game speed run, dancing at a rave, sex marathon, antiques roadshow, what have you. But mostly there are better drugs for having a good time.

The problem with meth - apart from its duration, obviously - is that the onset of effects is just pleasurable enough that some people might be into it - and using it recreationally negates most of its functional benefits and then some.

Also, injecting it or smoking it packs way more of a drug punch than shooting amphetamine or methylphenidate.
To that point, smoking is infinitely more accessible as an ROA than injection - very simple and a familiar way to consume drugs for most people. Unfortunately, smoking it lends itself particularly well to compulsive abuse and not much else.

When used in moderate dosages and via the oral route, I too find it essentially interchangeable to amphetamine; it's just got way more legs.

 

[Leprechaun]

UPDATE - CHRONIC ADMINISTRATION
I wanted to do an experiment on a 4 day chronic administration of dl-methamphetamine orally to see if there's any reduction of the euphoric effects and it's effectiveness for focus.

Day 1: 5mg + 5mg + 5mg - Elevated mood, anxiety, general wakefulness, difficulty falling asleep. 3hrs sleep.
Day 2: 5mg + 5mg + 5mg - Elevated mood, anxiety bordering on panic..., general wakefulness, difficulty falling asleep 2hrs sleep additionally, nausea and headache.

I didn't even get to day 3. Anxiety made me basically dysfunctional by end of day 2.

How the hell do people stand this for anymore than a day?

Yet it's prescribed as a second line treatement for ADHD... In Children 6 years+ no less.

 

[Leprechaun]

Interesting read! You raise many defensible points, thanks for that.

I agree with a great deal of your observations.:
My experience with stimulants covers quite a bit of all of d-amp, dl-amp, meth, and methylphenidate at both therapeutic doses of pharmaceuticals to massively supratherapeutic, accumulating doses. Then there's a whole heap of other stimulating drugs which typically present with more intoxicating cognitive effects, including euphoria. The ones I mentioned are distinctly clear-headed and, as a result, more functional stimulants, and less recreational.

For me, large doses of these stimulants are not rewarding in and of themselves. They may indirectly be recreational, if elevated performance or energy are central to whatever you're doing. Video game speed run, dancing at a rave, sex marathon, antiques roadshow, what have you. But mostly there are better drugs for having a good time.

The problem with meth - apart from its duration, obviously - is that the onset of effects is just pleasurable enough that some people might be into it - and using it recreationally negates most of its functional benefits and then some.

Also, injecting it or smoking it packs way more of a drug punch than shooting amphetamine or methylphenidate.
To that point, smoking is infinitely more accessible as an ROA than injection - very simple and a familiar way to consume drugs for most people. Unfortunately, smoking it lends itself particularly well to compulsive abuse and not much else.

When used in moderate dosages and via the oral route, I too find it essentially interchangeable to amphetamine; it's just got way more legs.

I think it makes recreational sense when combined with benzodiazepines and/or alcohol. But with alcohol that will just wreck your body and likely lead downhill with impulse control, leading to aggression or unsafe acts.

But yes, generally, there are few "recreational" medicines out there, even then, what does it mean to do something "recreationally", going to the park on 2C-B could be meditative, but is it recreational? Would love to put down a real meaning behind "recreational" drug use.

It's the same as the phrase "drug abuse", what does that mean? Any use outside of medical use? Well what about coffee and wine? Do we automatically say that's "abuse"...

 

[KurtAurelius]

Interesting read! You raise many defensible points, thanks for that.

I agree with a great deal of your observations.:
My experience with stimulants covers quite a bit of all of d-amp, dl-amp, meth, and methylphenidate at both therapeutic doses of pharmaceuticals to massively supratherapeutic, accumulating doses. Then there's a whole heap of other stimulating drugs which typically present with more intoxicating cognitive effects, including euphoria. The ones I mentioned are distinctly clear-headed and, as a result, more functional stimulants, and less recreational.

For me, large doses of these stimulants are not rewarding in and of themselves. They may indirectly be recreational, if elevated performance or energy are central to whatever you're doing. Video game speed run, dancing at a rave, sex marathon, antiques roadshow, what have you. But mostly there are better drugs for having a good time.

The problem with meth - apart from its duration, obviously - is that the onset of effects is just pleasurable enough that some people might be into it - and using it recreationally negates most of its functional benefits and then some.

Also, injecting it or smoking it packs way more of a drug punch than shooting amphetamine or methylphenidate.
To that point, smoking is infinitely more accessible as an ROA than injection - very simple and a familiar way to consume drugs for most people. Unfortunately, smoking it lends itself particularly well to compulsive abuse and not much else.

When used in moderate dosages and via the oral route, I too find it essentially interchangeable to amphetamine; it's just got way more legs.

Completly agree, I may myself have less ability to obtain recreational effects from stimulants (the old ADHD hypothesis), but they only facilitate further action.

^to add I’ve experienced Euphoria from methylphenidate but only at low tolerances, and not enough to just sit in the experience itself unlike MDMA, Psychs, Dissociatives, Cannabinoids or Opioids

I’ve noticed all stimulants place me in seeking mode, seeking a task or activity.

When I’m stoned, I can either do nothing, or engage in an activity: but even engaging the activity still is more than the activity.

On 72-100mg Methylphenidate (not at once over 16hrs for ADHD) I become the activity solely.

I know I’m comparing apples to oranges, but the point being, enhancing the levels of dopamine and norepinephrine very much make me in a state only to be task oriented. I can be much more mindful of the task, and get tunnel vision

But it’s not the same as other substances.

Again I can take opioids and do nothing.

Doing nothing on stimulants is worse then doing nothing sober.

There is a lift in mood and wakefulness but this effect is not satisfactory enough to qualify as a recreational activity.

 

[Leprechaun]

Completly agree, I may myself have less ability to obtain recreational effects from stimulants (the old ADHD hypothesis), but they only facilitate further action.

^to add I’ve experienced Euphoria from methylphenidate but only at low tolerances, and not enough to just sit in the experience itself unlike MDMA, Psychs, Dissociatives, Cannabinoids or Opioids

I’ve noticed all stimulants place me in seeking mode, seeking a task or activity.

When I’m stoned, I can either do nothing, or engage in an activity: but even engaging the activity still is more than the activity.

On 72-100mg Methylphenidate (not at once over 16hrs for ADHD) I become the activity solely.

I know I’m comparing apples to oranges, but the point being, enhancing the levels of dopamine and norepinephrine very much make me in a state only to be task oriented. I can be much more mindful of the task, and get tunnel vision

But it’s not the same as other substances.

Again I can take opioids and do nothing.

Doing nothing on stimulants is worse then doing nothing sober.

There is a lift in mood and wakefulness but this effect is not satisfactory enough to qualify as a recreational activity.

Still, we haven't arrived closer to a definition of what "recreational drug use" actually is. And what's the point of it?

 

[iom]

Well I think recreational drug use is drug use intended to enhance or facilitate recreation, which can include many different activities, each of which need not be exclusively recreational and may be simultaneously productive, medicinal, and/or spiritual in nature.

I guess that there is also the connotation that "recreational" drug use is non-medical and/or against medical advice and is therefore immoral and/or dangerous, but I think most of us would agree that this view is terribly short-sighted.

I've never actually had meth or D-amphetamine. I don't even really use caffeine. I did experiment with coca tea, both oral and subbuccal, and I used it daily for some months. Via the subbuccal route which gives more intense effects, I find 1g to be plenty for most purposes. I've only taken as much as 2g on a few occasions. Orally, I go for 2-5g. In terms of actual cocaine, these amounts are tiny compared to how much people use "recreationally". I have no interest in doing coke myself. Everyone I've seen on coke was a raging asshole. The effects of coca are worlds apart. I never experienced any kind of crash, withdrawal, dependence, or cravings. The subbuccal route blocked my appetite for about 2 hours and prevented sleep for around 4 hours. The oral route had little effect on appetite or sleep. It was very easy to use as a utilitarian stimulant and helped me out a lot during a period in which I was working split shifts and sometimes having to sleep a few hours in my car between shifts. It got me through some days of heavy labor and some difficult exams. I probably enjoyed it the most when I could be physically active on it, especially while in the mountains and at high altitude.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Still, we haven't arrived closer to a definition of what "recreational drug use" actually

In one sense it might be self-medication for unacknowledged health imbalances. Classic examples would be alcohol, speed, tobacco, opioids, cocaine, caffeine, ketamine, benzos, GHB, cannabis. These may or may not be habitual.
In another sense, self-medication for enrichment purposes which includes psychedelics but also disassociatives, raw cacao, cannabis & MDA/MDMA. You could argue that alcohol, tobacco (mapacho) and caffeine (guarana) would fit in this context.

On 72-100mg Methylphenidate (not at once over 16hrs for ADHD) I become the activity solely.

I know I’m comparing apples to oranges, but the point being, enhancing the levels of dopamine and norepinephrine very much make me in a state only to be task oriented. I can be much more mindful of the task, and get tunnel vision

The norepinephrine (noradrenaline) is likely what makes the experience "task-orientated" so without it the vibe becomes less "rigid" and more recreational.

Have you ever tried a dopaminergic substance without any adrenaline-type activity? Opioids technically do this.
Or perhaps a dopamine + serotonin + opioid substance? The only example I can think of is linalool which has this profile plus GABAergic and dissasociative (NMDA antagonist). ref1, ref2. There's many reports of it's psychoactivity with mentions of psychedelic qualities.

 

[MidnightDevil]

Merely a opinion from skimming “facts” but I’ve always thought Methamphetamine has been overhyped or fearmongered into oblivion.

A crass comparison but like morphine to Diamorphine, just a little structural change for more absorption in the brain.

^ yes really lacking nuance as there is more established changes, but the utility of both Amphetamine and Methampheatamine are very similar, merely a half life difference and a current ongoing neurotoxicity debate.

But at established medical doses, it will not present as some crazy drug. It’s a very subtle and smooth stimulant.

If you IV many times beyond medical doses, redose, don’t sleep, eat, stay in a dark room etc you are facilitating the common “meth” head. The fallacy here is blaming the drug when similar would be achieved from other stimulants. The only point I see worthy of contention is the duration can be a issue.

The dopamine system does seem overhyped for pleasure imo, I should know far more as someone with a disregulated system but alas it’s clear that pleasure isn’t really a summary for it.

And the behaviour that presents from artificially modulating it is odd at best.

Of course individualism will present the opinions of what is a pleasurable substance.

I love stimulants because they make my mind quiet and be able to hone in. But I’d pick MDMA or Opioids for Euphoria any day.

I feel like with Cocaine, Methylphenidate, and Amphetamine and Meth that the doses you need to use to achieve pleasure JUST from the drug itself..

Far exceeds safety, and utility and makes the substances become risky and not worth the consequences.

But merely an opinion of mine.

Out of curiosity, ADHD?

Stimulants for ADHD people tend to feel less euphoric, more 'calm and collected' grounded feeling, yeah it gets your heart rate up and some energy but not necessarily euphoria, that matches a low dopamine pattern common in ADHD.

 

[Phobos]

Out of curiosity, ADHD?

Stimulants for ADHD people tend to feel less euphoric, more 'calm and collected' grounded feeling, yeah it gets your heart rate up and some energy but not necessarily euphoria, that matches a low dopamine pattern common in ADHD.

Genuine question, is there any evidence to support ADHD being caused by low levels of dopamine, other than that giving dopaminergic drugs seems to ameliorate some of the symptoms of it, and that dopaminergic stimulants seem to be less rewarding at dosages that would be recreational for others?

 

[Allylbenzene]

Genuine question, is there any evidence to support ADHD being caused by low levels of dopamine, other than that giving dopaminergic drugs seems to ameliorate some of the symptoms of it...

IMO the fundamental dynamic that gives rise to ADHD is an overactive stress response (HPA axis, glucocorticoid system). Chronic elevated stress (cortisol) and it's partner adrenaline have several undesirable effects, especially in terms of psychoactivity.

I posted this on an ADHD thread but it's quite fitting here. This quote partly explains why pro-dopamine drugs (methylphenidate & amphetamine) and anti-adrenaline drugs (guanfacine, clonidine) are used to help with ADHD symptoms:

Systems That Counteract Adrenaline's Toxic Effects

"There are several systems that oppose the toxic effects of adrenalin. GABA, dopamine, and adenosine have multiple anti-adrenergic effects. In many situations, the parasympathetic system is protective against adrenalin. The protective steroids also act at many levels. Magnesium, retained in the cell largely under the influence of ATP and thyroid, is our basic calcium blocker, or calcium antagonist. GABA and dopamine inhibit the ACTH-glucocorticoid system, and shift the steroid balance toward the protective anti-glucocorticoids (anti-cortisol): progesterone, testosterone, pregnenolone, and DHEA."

In this context it's not that low dopamine directly causes ADHD...but that dopamine counteracts the effects of excess adrenaline (+cortisol). This implies that pro-dopamine drugs will counteract adrenalines negative effects which helps reduce symptoms of ADHD.
The anti-adrenaline drugs used for ADHD work more directly at counteracting adrenaline. They have another advantage because they also have a pro-GABA effect. GABAergic drugs have anti-adrenaline effects which is one reason why people enjoy them.

FYI in that quote the word "steroids" just means regular hormones that cells make. Some have potent anti-stress effects (progesterone, testosterone, pregnenolone, DHEA) and others tend to promote stress-related things (cortisol, estrogen). If you search the forum you'll find reports on progesterone and pregnenolone, both are available OTC but read up before dosing.

Side note:
Some people might think progesterone is just a woman's thing but it's present in men also, just not as prominently. Women make testosterone too, just not as prominently as men.

 

[MidnightDevil]

There's also the theory that in several parts the dopamine baseline is lower (percentage varies, lots of variables, but generally 10-30% in pre frontal cortex), however on dopamine surges (ADHD hyperfocus) there's a much higher release of dopamine, but also cleared quicker, it seems quicker clearance is another pattern, which would theoretically explain impulsivity and risk taking. The studies about dopamine itself being the culprit find a pattern of lower baseline and higher bursts in rewards, but also quicker clearance.

 

[4DQSAR]

I can only comment on the difference between raecemic amphetamine sulfate and medical Dexedrine i.e. (S)-amphetamine sulfate.

The difference is vast. just two SKF5s was perfect for a night in the clubs and it wore of quite quickly and reliably after 8 hours. But not raecemic amphetamine which lingers. It feels like the unwanted laevoamphetamine alters the pharmokinetics of the dexamphetamine so you need to take more than twice as much to get similar (but not identical effects) and 'the shoulder' can end up being as long as the actual high. So even if consumed at 5PM, don't expect to sleep.

I keep an eye on all EUDA (formally EMCDDA) publications and what I find odd is that price isn't always a guide to purity. I note 6.4% pure speed sold for 15EUR but then 51.2% pure speed sold for 7EUR. Wholesale prices varied from 3500EUR/Kg to 11500EUR/Kg... and not in nations where adjusting for income would particularly skew date.

One new thing is true freebase amphetamine is also traded in bulk (but isn't always pure product. Would you believe around 900EUR/Kg? I haven't fully divined why this should be, only to say that being a liquid and being the freebase, it's likely easier to smuggle. But apparently on-line vendors are offering the stuff.

What I find odd is that Dutch chemists have figured out that resolving methamphetamine and epimerizating the unwanted enantiomer was either cheaper and/or resulted in a more valuable product. But I am unaware of anyone doing this for plain amphetamine where I suggest the improvement in the product would be greater.

 

[tryptakid]

INTRO
I've been exploring nootropics and readily available psycho-stimulants to see if really there are differences between the effective, well known stimulants and those niche ones without clear information on whether they are effective.

So now, the big bad scary monster METHAMPHETAMINE has it's turn... It's the molecule that bad teeth, psychosis and zombies are made of... Or so we are told.

Is it really that different? I've smoked it a couple of times and found this is a terrible way to dose. Short pleasant experience (~30 minutes)... followed by 8 hours of flat effect with aimless hyper locomotion and hyper sexuality.

Only once did I find it useful, which was after working a 24 hours shift and I needed to get some work done I promised this was smoked dl-methamphetamine at 40mg. Still, the following week was a write off as I recovered. I've never understood why people would get addicted to it or bother doing it a number of days in a row. Missing sleep and becoming rather manic. Honestly, what's the fun in missing sleep and being unable to function?

I find psychedelics far more interesting as novel experiences, and exercise a far healthier alternative to improving well being than using stimulants on a chronic basis.

Is there any use for it outside of Narcolepsy and difficult to treat ADHD?

So, lets try a 10mg +- 1mg oral dose, early in the morning.

How does it compare to d-amphetamine, phenyl-piracetam, phenylpropylaminopentane, caffeine, 4-FA and n-methyl-cyclazadone?

EXPERIENCE
5:10am - Dose 10mg orally. Empty stomach.
5:30am - Standard workout stack of amino-acids, caffeine and vitamins.
5:40am - Out for 3km run, lovely weather! So nice to have warm weather in the morning again. Don't attribute this good mood to any drug affect.
6:30am - Possibly effective, good mood, increased performance and enjoyment of workout. Could I say this is a product of the drug or just me being in a good mood? Can't differentiate.
8:00am - Noticeable dry mouth, still some push. Getting lots done. Not as sharp as I have been before. Not any different from d-amphetamine tbh, maybe less anxiety.
11:00am - Chase with 200mg of phenylpiracetam. Effects seem to be waning. Still some push.
11:30am - Appetite is fine, no noticed change, two apples.
12:00pm - No change in effects with phenylpiracetam. Final, chase with 5mg dl-methamphetamine, see if there's any impact on sleep. n-methyl-cyclazadone was no problem, even though others complained of inability to sleep.
12:40pm - Minor change with 5mg. Back to a bit of what I felt at 6:30am. Enhanced with warm tea, or maybe it's just the tea. Heart BPM normal, not elevated at all. 69. Bruxism noted throughout.
1:45pm - Laughs with wife, appetite fine, maybe a little reduced? No hunger pangs. Everything feels like there's an urgency to it.
3:30pm - Feeling more exhausted than usual, somewhat nervous, still effective.
5:00pm - Mostly out. There's a sense of being pushed from the inside... not too unpleasant, but not that interesting or nice. Definitely more effective for longer than D-amphetamine at the same dose.
7:00pm - Out.

Sleep pretty normal, about 30 minutes longer to fall asleep than normal. Next day, some remaining awareness and residual effect.

SUMMARY
dl-methamphetamine feels like a long lasting phenyl-piracetam with more body/physical push. n-methyl-cyclazadone feels like a different beast altogether. Hard to pin down a clear difference. I need to try it again, because at the dose I did 10mg + 15mg later, I noticed strange effects similar to dl-meth, but still distinct. Maybe try it later in the day when tired?

Honestly, as predicted, at this dose, dl-meth isn't that different when taken orally to other stimulants. In fact, the euphoria is along the lines of caffeine at the 10mg dose. It is however an absolutely a cleaner experience. Less jitters and less icky feeling than caffeine.

Addiction potential? Well, I guess if you have nothing else to keep you motivated, and/or you use extremely high doses (50mg+), I can see how it's highly addictive. Generally, at high doses, your social interactions will suffer, you will look noticeably "drug affected", you won't sleep much, you'll have manic symptoms, and anyone who wants to live a generally normal life will avoid this. [1]

Additionally, in terms of "nice" effects. It's hard to differentiate it from something like PPAP. At 80mg, PPAP gave a very similar similar nice feeling and improved perception of exercise.

No mental changes were noted at all with dl-meth, however I did notice mental changes with n-methyl-cyclazodone.

END NOTES
I had some issue with using dexedrine (d=amphetamine). In that I would want to keep some for a rainy day, but due to it giving a nice boost with physical activity, the "wanting" sensation generally just had me dose up. Wasn't liking my relationship with it. I didn't really enjoy its effects directly. When running, the post run high was dulled and I was generally a little tense, without the relaxing effects of a long run or gym session.

The same effect is felt on dl-meth, but to a lesser extent.

So what next... it doesn't stand up to LSD, 2C-B, Mescaline or any other of the psychedelics classic or new. But, if you need that extra push, for whatever reason, dl-meth is still the best stimulant out there. But be mindful, tolerance to its effects appears quickly, same as Caffeine.

The reason for the taboo and hype around dl-meth? Unlike amphetamine, it's easy to make, it can be smoked and injected readily, it's reinforcing when smoked or injected. In the poorly educated and low social economic circles, people are pre-disposed to use for many reasons (trauma, debt, lack of drug education, few social or economic options), and thus poor relationships with drugs develop.[1][2]

In terms of drug effect, if given to me blind, I am not sure I could distinguish it from 10mg n-methyl-cycladone, d-amphetamine or amphetamine salts.

And, in fact, low dose meth-amphetamine has been studied to be a nootropic in and of itself[3]

FURTHER READING :
[1] https://www.opensocietyfoundations....ction-and-lessons-crack-hysteria-20140220.pdf
[2] https://archive.org/details/fromchocolateto000weil
[3] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4939399/

NOTE: phenyl-piracetam, phenylpropylaminopentane and n-methyl-cyclazadone are all legally available for personal use as medicines with no legal controls. They could possibly fall under an analogue or NPS act if someone would seek to sell these for significant financial gain.

VS AMPHETAMINE
dl-methamphetamine is such a long thing... Almost identical to Amphetamine, yet still distinct. I can see why Amphetamine is preferred in many ways, with oral doses of 10-15mg you get a similar experience that is over in 5-6 hours. Methamphetamine just lasts so long, even 12 hours later it's still noticeable.

I have far less interest in taking methamphetamine again than amphetamine.

And thus the book closes on this topic.

I'm prescribed desoxyn (d-methamphetamine) 5-10mg oral. I alternate prescriptions month to month with dexedrine (d-amphetamine) as I find them to be useful for different types of stimulation. When I use dexedrine it's 10-20mg and typically XR format (the desoxyn is IR).

Dexedrine is more noticeably focusing - good for computer work, doing certain tasks that require sitting with tedium or not moving around much but remaining locked in. Great for writing a paper or a long forum comment. It's harder on the muscles (lower doses are less difficult in this way) and requires me to pay more attention to things like stretching. It's more wakefulness enhancing at this dose than meth.

Meth/Desoxyn is smoother - less muscle tension, less stimulating in some ways, but definitely motivating. I find it good for social stimulation. If I'm going to a social event on a weekend, I will skip the dexedrine and only use desoxyn. If I need to sit and do a bunch of paperwork, I'll primarily do dexedrine. If I am engaging in my regular job (psychotherapist) I will use desoxyn as the mental flexibility, lack of rigidity, and lower stimulation offers a better profile of stimulation than dexedrine does. Also, as I'll be sitting for hours at a time listening to patients, I don't want the muscle tension of dexedrine to effect me as it ends up with cramps and knots.

The ideal for me is 5mg of meth and 10mg xr dexedrine combined. You get the best of both worlds. This is what I use if I have an 8 hour shift at the hospital and I want to be awake, focused, but still retain some of the flexibility of attention that desoxyn is superior in producing, however, it also gives me the push and wakefulness that dexedrine provides much more effectively than meth.

Great writeup - your observations are very much in line with my own experiences.

 

[4DQSAR]

@tryptakid - I appreciate the comparison.

I just remembered that decades ago someone gave me quite a big bag of methamphetamine. One of the worst experiences of my life - gave the rest away. Now I almost certainly snorted more than 5mg but I am a careful taster so it wasn't like I didn't know the fifference between a pure product and the 5-10% pure speed we gpt in the UK at the time. I think what surprised me was the extreme dysphoria. But looking at your post, it does dound like a single dab would have been more appropriate.

The only circumstance when I've tasted a stimulant since is because I esigned it so I felt morally bound to be first into man. Pyrophenidne wasn't a success at the time but I note that now cachinones are being controlled on masse in some nations, it's creeping back.

 

[tryptakid]

@tryptakid - I appreciate the comparison.

I just remembered that decades ago someone gave me quite a big bag of methamphetamine. One of the worst experiences of my life - gave the rest away. Now I almost certainly snorted more than 5mg but I am a careful taster so it wasn't like I didn't know the fifference between a pure product and the 5-10% pure speed we gpt in the UK at the time. I think what surprised me was the extreme dysphoria. But looking at your post, it does dound like a single dab would have been more appropriate.

The only circumstance when I've tasted a stimulant since is because I esigned it so I felt morally bound to be first into man. Pyrophenidne wasn't a success at the time but I note that now cachinones are being controlled on masse in some nations, it's creeping back.

It's funny, I've had a few experiences with cathinones - methcathinone way back in the early 00s as well as 3-mmc and some of the other substituted caths that floated around the RC world in the 2010s.

Cathinones certainly have made a comeback and are loved by many people - I find them inherently less desirable than amphetamines as they can be highly euphoric and also difficult to focus. I find that the euphoria created is quite compulsive, but that compulsivity is less directed than with amphetamine. Essentially - if I take a high dose of amphetamine, especially through a quick acting ROA (snorting/smoking/injecting) it will lead to a compulsion to do more of the same repeatedly. If I were to do the same thing with a similar cathinone, it will make me seek more pleasure, but where that pleasure comes from is not focused on any one thing. This scattered pleasure seeking state that I find inherent to cathinone experiences is very unpleasant to me as it can lead to a reckless hedonism that I find difficult to manage and ultimately stressful.

MCAT was much more primitive in this effects profile, sort of a combination of cocaine and methamphetamine but less focused while still being highly compulsive. 3-mmc was more akin to meth and MDMA being combined, but again less focused and highly compulsive.

The different flavors of monoamine agonism fascinate me.

 

[4DQSAR]

The thing is that as I have noted before, the cathinones are drifting further and further from that which is known. It's not an 'if' but only a 'when' it turns out an RC produces long-term serious health effects BUT may take many years to be recognized.

Quite regularly I remind people that I've seen the instrumental data for thousands of batches of CB1/2 ligands and more than ⅓ of them contained dimers, trimers and ploymers i.e. compounds to heavy to be vapourized ahead of the flame-front but which will be pyrolized... those pyrolysis products being known carcinogens.