Need Help Definitive List of Comfort Meds for Opiate Detox/ log of fent detox.

[Allylbenzene]

So, I'm assuming most of the OTCs, Herbs, Etc that are helpful in detox are also helpful in PAWS.

Yes.

...for PAWS, what would you recommend my stack to be? Keep in mind, the dopamine deficiency, lack of energy and sleep are what really gets me.

For lack of sleep, you want to boost the calming neurotransmitter (GABA) and reduce the stimulating/excitatory ones which are...

• adrenaline
• cortisol
• glutamate

I'll just mention everything relevant so you can see whats what.

• Theanine
• Agmatine
• Magnolia bark extract (magnolol/honokiol)
• Creatine
• CBG
• Linalool (ho wood essential oil = ~97% linalool)
• Caryophyllene (sold as terpene isolate)
• Passionflower extract

For dopamine deficiency and lack of energy the idea is to support (repair) your metabolic function (see this post on what that is and why it's worth repairing)

• BSO (thymoquinone)
• Creatine
• Sodium Ascorbate
• CoQ10
• Ribose
• Inosine
• Vitamin B1 (via B-complex)
• Niacinamide (50-100mg, with meals)
• Low dose aspirin (81-100mg max per day, why aspirin?)
• L-Phenylalanine (300-500mg, daily)
• Coffee (LOW doses + honey + theanine - why honey?)
• Rhodiola rosea (adaptogen)

-Mucana Puriens (?) thoughts here? Is this wasteful to stack on something that's already a precursor to L-Dopa?

Sure, it seems to fit with your goals - you want to look at plants that are called adaptoens. Rhodiola rosea is a perfect example.
It improves endurane, mood, cognition, energy; and reduces stress. Rhodiola might be more suitable than Mucana.

Also, would some form of the Vitamin c megadosing be beneficial during PAWS?

Yes, you can continue doing the vitC/agmatine/creatine drink (split the creatine into multiple smaller doses instead of megadoses)

 

[NY2soFlo]

Yes.


For lack of sleep, you want to boost the calming neurotransmitter (GABA) and reduce the stimulating/excitatory ones which are...

• adrenaline
• cortisol
• glutamate

I'll just mention everything relevant so you can see whats what.

• Theanine
• Agmatine
• Magnolia bark extract
• Creatine
• CBG
• Linalool
• Caryophyllene
• Passionflower

For dopamine deficiency and lack of energy the idea is to support (repair) your metabolic function (see this post on what that is and why it's worth repairing)

• Vitamin B1
• BSO (thymoquinone)
• Creatine
• Sodium Ascorbate
• CoQ10
• Ribose
• Inosine
• Niacinamide (dose low, with meals)
• L-Phenylalanine
• Coffee (+ honey + theanine)

Sure, it seems to fit with your goals - you want to look at plants that are called adaptoens. Rhodiola rosea is a perfect example.
It improves endurane, mood, cognition, energy; and reduces stress. Rhodiola might be more suitable than Mucana.


Yes, you can continue doing the vitC/agmatine/creatine drink (split the creatine into multiple smaller doses instead of megadoses)

This is post should be a sticky. Thank you.

 

[NY2soFlo]

General Update: 9 Days since last dose

took my last .25mg dose of bupe last night. I honestly feel pretty ok today. Definitely not there with energy yet, but I'm able to work from home, make simple food (and clean up), and the showering process isn't something that drains me.

All previously listed OTC supps are being taken at the same dosages and times.
Rx Meds- I've been taking half doses of everything, and really one cocktail at 11am, and one before bed. I dropped the muscle relaxer and hydroxyzine from the AM dose and am saving them to knock me out at night. No Klonopins for 2 days. Around 6pm, I'll take .05mg clonidine (half pill), and 2.5mg valium, that's it. the tapered down meds (I believe) have also helped with my slight and consistent gaining of energy each day. I plan to taper off everything by Thursday (day 11). Perhaps split the valium into quarters (2x) a day for a day or two longer just out of safety.


All in all, I feel like I was spared by some higher being during this detox. Ive detoxed from all types of opiates, and this should have been my worst. Don't get me wrong, it was not fun. I used more immodium then the rest of my life combined, and I had some real short tempered/frustrated moments that were unfortunately directed at the person helping me. So, I'm back home for a few days. I think that will help re-establish my normalcy a bit too.

Side note- I also chose to stop vaping during this process, probably not a great idea, but I already lost some interest in it during WD anyway. Been using Nicoderm patches, and just FYI- they work really well. I usually hit my vape 70-80 times per day, and I've hit it maybe 8 times today so far (its 3:30pm here in Florida). So, that's something else.

 

[Allylbenzene]

-Creatine 7.5 grams daily, 10g on workout days.

Check this...sodium bicarbonate for better metabolic (ATP, NAD) performance. Aspirin has similar effects.

Synergistic effect of creatine and sodium bicarbonate on performance

This study examined the effect of simultaneous supplementation of creatine and sodium bicarbonate on consecutive maximal swims.
...
The data indicate that simultaneous supplementation of creatine and sodium bicarbonate enhances performance in consecutive maximal swims.

Creatine and sodium bicarbonate supplementation independently increase exercise performance, but it remains unclear whether combining these two supplements is more beneficial on exercise performance.
...
Combining creatine and sodium bicarbonate supplementation increased peak and mean power, and had the greatest attenuation of decline in relative peak power over the six repeated sprints. These data suggest that combining these two supplements may be advantageous for athletes participating in high-intensity, intermittent exercise.

Source https://www.functionalps.com/blog/2...t-of-creatine-and-baking-soda-on-performance/

In the context of drug detoxing, sodium bicarbonate, aspirin and creatine all boost ATP and indirectly boost dopamine.

Been using Nicoderm patches, and just FYI- they work really well.

Nicotine has quite a few theraputic benefits. It's anti-parasitic, anti-inflammatory, and inhibits aromatase which prevents testosterone from being turned into estrogen. It also protects from stress and boosts dopamine (amongst other things) which mirrors the benefits of caffeine. No wonder tobacco and coffee are so popular...

 

[NY2soFlo]

Check this...sodium bicarbonate for better metabolic (ATP, NAD) performance. Aspirin has similar effects.

Synergistic effect of creatine and sodium bicarbonate on performance


Source https://www.functionalps.com/blog/2...t-of-creatine-and-baking-soda-on-performance/

In the context of drug detoxing, sodium bicarbonate, aspirin and creatine all boost ATP and indirectly boost dopamine.


Nicotine has quite a few theraputic benefits. It's anti-parasitic, anti-inflammatory, and inhibits aromatase which prevents testosterone from being turned into estrogen. It also protects from stress and boosts dopamine (amongst other things) which mirrors the benefits of caffeine. No wonder tobacco and coffee are so popular...

The sodium bicarbonate thing is interesting... baking soda... I wonder what doses they were using, Id imagine less then a standard 5g dose of creatine. Ill check the study though.

I've smoked, dipped, and vaped for over 16 years, so while I'd like to quit vaping, since I vape HEAVY... I will never be afraid to take a random hit, or pop a small lip or something. Nicotine doesn't pull me in the way opiates do. I just have to NOT go buy a vape. Use sparingly. But I'll have to quit and chip instead of wean down for that whole plan to work.

For aspirin- this seems like the easiest part of my ATP/Dopamine stack... what dose would you recommend? Literally never taken it before. The Fent/H usually took care of any pain lol.
For the B vitamins you listed above- would a simple b complex work? Or would it be more beneficial to buy separate b vitamins and have more control over the ratios of each?

Lastly, I take anastrozole for an AI with my TRT. .25mg eod when Im at my normal 200mg T per week dose. I bumped it to 350/week a few weeks before the detox in hopes of muscle sparing and all the goodness of testosterone. And thats a decision I have not regretted. currently taking .33 adex EOD with this 350mg/ week test cyp dose. And, i'll admit, I have a cycle on deck which I planned to start asap to regain weight from detox... fortunately I only lost about 5 lbs so I'm going to hold off on that. I've moved out of cycles and maintain a great physique with just my trt dose. But this is an entirely different subject to i'll cut it there lol.

 

[Allylbenzene]

The sodium bicarbonate thing is interesting... baking soda... I wonder what doses they were using, Id imagine less then a standard 5g dose of creatine. Ill check the study though.

There's no need to go OTT with the dose size imo. 1-3g is reasonable.
Daily bicarbonate use is beneficial, ideally ~30min before meals so it doesn't interfere with stomach acid.

Taking 1-1.5 grams of sodium bicarbonate 20-30 minutes before meals (that is 2 or 3 times per day) has improved my digestion dramatically. Not just digestion but I will discuss only the digestive improvements in this thread.
Increased sense of wellbeing, markedly reduced anxiety, improved breathing.
...
All of the possible mechanisms have already been discussed in various threads here, but this is what I speculate explains my current experience digestion-wise:

- taking advantage of the rebound effect of acid secretion after bicarbonate administration; Ray also mentioned several times that sodium bicarbonate only stops acid for a short time the secretion quickly returning to normal; also the study from a few years ago on the anti-inflammatory effects of sodium bicarbonate mediated by the spleen also identified the acid secretion as being the key trigger of this process; when they administered PPIs concomitant with baking soda the anti-inflammatory effect was abolished; the circadian timing in my GI tract might be dysregulated and stimulating acid production before meals in this way probably sets the right cascade of signalling for proper digestion

- studies show that 95% of pancreatic juice bicarbonate is derived from plasma bicarbonate; metabolic CO2 is not the source of juice bicarbonate; the pancreas secretes 2-3 L per day of bicarbonate rich juice which is important for buffering of acid chyme entering duodenum and for activation of enzymes; pancreatic bicarbonate is critical to neutralizing the acid coming into the small intestine from the stomach; the small intestine is not specialized to withstand the strong acids from the stomach; the digestive enzymes secreted by the pancreas are active at a basic pH;

So I think one key factor is to take the sodium bicarbonate 20-30 minutes before meals to take advantage of the rebound acid secretion. I hope this helps someone.

For aspirin- this seems like the easiest part of my ATP/Dopamine stack... what dose would you recommend? Literally never taken it before. The Fent/H usually took care of any pain lol.

A small dose is sufficient, 81 to 100mg max per day.
Aspirin fits the bill for a performance enhancing drug...lol (and detox enhancing)

For the B vitamins you listed above- would a simple b complex work? Or would it be more beneficial to buy separate b vitamins and have more control over the ratios of each?

A properly dosed B complex would be ideal imo. One thats not unnecessarily high in B6.

 

[opallove13]

So I’d imagine a healthy dose of caffeine along with rigorous exercise and a clean diet would all serve to increase metabolic function. Along with the supplements you mentioned?

I wonder why caffeine is so poo pooed during the paws phase then? Everybody says to stay away from it, but that’s the only thing that gets me moving in post acute.

And just to reiterate, in case I didn’t actually say this yet, all the supplements you mentioned I plan on taking as soon as possible for the end of this detox, all the way for several months after ….hoping it will help with PAWS and just living healthy in general.

Every time I’m in PAWS, coffee amps me up and anxiety sets in. Can’t drink coffee during alcoholic PAWS.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Every time I’m in PAWS, coffee amps me up and anxiety sets in. Can’t drink coffee during alcoholic PAWS.

This post explains why that happens and how to avoid the low blood-sugar stress response. Essentially a lower dose of coffee with honey/carbs and optionally milk or real cream. Theanine pairs very well with caffeine and totally smoothes it out. Along with the supp agmatine they'd both help PAWS.

 

[NY2soFlo]

General Update: 10.5 days in (254 hours since last dose...probably the last hour count I'll put)
-No bupe today
-No meds other then 2.5mg Valium taper (10am/6pm/10pm)
-OTCs the same regiment (Vitamin C, L-Tyrosine, DLPA, Passionflower, BSO)
-Imodium dosing drastically down... which is good.

I had a lazy slower morning, but by 10am was able to work a full work day. Quite busy and stressful actually without feeling any symptoms other then slight agitation and small bouts of lethargy. Slight uptick in anxiety as I've finished all my meds and am tapering down off valium. Nothing terrible though, and it was mostly post caffeine. Having two small caffeine doses post carb containing meals and my tyrosine. one around noon, and one around 6.

No gym today, traded it for a brisk 1.5 mile walk. My temperature regulation is still off. I live in south Florida, im ALWAYS sweating. I wore pants and a sweatshirt on this walk and I barely sweat. This could also be that the fent was keeping my body temp up higher then normal too... so maybe this is a good thing. I've always sweat profusely when over using opiates of any kind.

Not much else to say. Appetite is weak in the morning but builds during the day. By dinner (now) im ravenous.

I started this detox at 215lbs and hit a low of 204lb. Currently around 207lb. I expect a few more small workouts will suck back in some glycogen and ill jump up a few lbs too. All in all, the weight loss/ muscle loss was minimal here. I usually leave detox 20lbs lighter. So ill take it.

All my PAWS supps will be arriving tomorrow and Friday, so i'll go over the dosing and how they affect me. All in all, for day 10, Im feeling pretty fucking OK.

 

[NY2soFlo]

General Update: Day 12 Since last dose (1 bag fent. Did 6 the day before)
I've had a pretty linear recovery here since hitting peak of my acute withdrawals. As I've mentioned I've felt pretty good for the last 4 days or so... working (from home), doing some light workouts or walks. It seems like my energy has been increasing by about 5-10% daily in a very predictable way. It helps my appetite is coming back and I can either cook a nutrient dense meal or have a better one made for me. If REAL food wasn't being prepped for me during WD, Id certainly have relied on pretzels and bullshit, no doubt the whole foods and supplements I took this time all worked together to make it not as terrible.

However, today im 2-3 days since my last sub dose and as expected, I'm DEFF feeling a regression. Waking up was difficult again (more then normal). I took my normal dose of Vitamin C, Agmatine, Creatine and washed down Tyrosine, L-Phenylalanine, and BSO and laid back down, expecting to start feeling refreshed within the next hour (as has the case been with this little ritual). Not today. Sniffles, lethargy, definite increase in restlessness (the true opiate WD version of this... restless, yet to exhausted to get up or move). I ate a bacon egg and cheese, took another dose of my Drink cocktail ( Vit C + Creatine + Agmatine) and laid down for about two hours being a complete POS.... ignoring texts, calls, work, etc.

Then after deeming that my food had digested, I took the following combo (now that I have most of my PAWS supps):
-500mg L-Phenylalanine
-500mg L- Tyrosine
-200mg BSO
-1 B complex pill (about 450mg total)
-81mg asprin pill
-probably 4 tbsp of honey to the dome
-1 shot espresso (low dose of caffeine for me)
-Washed all down with another dose of my vit C cocktail

I laid back down and within 20 minutes my resting BPM went from 52-->70. (monitored via a pulse oximeter I use frequently during this)... I felt like I had a shot of adrenaline stuck into me. Instant energy. Been banging out work and now this small essay on BL. I could tell the energy/dopamine came with the cost of a dump or adrenaline or N/E.. so i took half a clonidine and found a balance here. Worth noting I'm not taking any Rx meds now other then 1.25 mg valium AM and PM tonight.... the final piece of my taper. My Theanine and Rhodiola Rosea extract come in today.

SO...For anyone with input here, Please LMK your thoughts on this "PAWS Stack":
-Vitamin C "Cocktail" (2g Sodium Ascorbate + ~2g Creatine Monohydrate + 333mg Agmatine) per dose. Every 2-3 Hours.
-Passionflower (375mg per pill @ 4:1 extract) 1 pill AM, 2 pills PM
-BSO (200mg per pill @ 5% thymoquinone) 4 pills per day split evenly AM thru PM
-L-Tyrosine (500mg per pill) 1500mg upon wakeup, 1000mg later in the day (usually around 5, PWO, or pre me doing my final task for the day)
-L-Phenylalanine (500mg per pill) 1000mg upon wakeup. 500mg later in the day with Tyrosine (scheduled above)
-Vitamin B complex (462mg total) 1 pill AM usually about an hour after the morning cocktail. I take it with my second dose of Vit C drink.
-L-Theanine (200mg per pill) 200-400mg with my caffeine and honey. Usually around 11am and 5-6pm. Playing with the dose here to pair with caffeine. Will also likely take 400-600mg before bed as PAWS insomnia creeps in.... if it does. It hasn't been horrible yet. But if I didnt go into a full no sleep month during PAWs it would be a first.
-Rhodiola Rosea (500mg pill standardized @ 3% rosavins + 1% salidrosides). I get this tomorrow... and ideas on where/how to dose. In conjunction with other supps? Anything to avoid with it?
-Imodium as needed still, unfortunately. Usually 3-4 throughout the day. To put this in perspective, I was taking 8-10 a day during acute WD.

Weight is a stable 206-207 daily. Obv my calories haven't increased much. I started detox at 215lb.

 

[NY2soFlo]

Update: 14 days (two full weeks since last bag of fent.)
Not much to say here different then the past few posts. I'm feeling more "put together" mentally and physically day by day. Experienced my first almost sleepless night last night, as I fully plan to have for a few weeks. By the end of this long weekend if that looks to be what it is, I'll be getting a sleep med from my doctor. Multiple sleepless nights have taken me out before.

Anyone have any experience taking Rhodiola Rosea? I can't find any dosing protocols anywhere for PAWS.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Anyone have any experience taking Rhodiola Rosea? I can't find any dosing protocols anywhere for PAWS.

Rhodiola has an energising effect so probably best used before midday. I don't see any issues with the things you listed in your earlier post. Are you still taking the pharma meds, clonidine etc?

-L-Tyrosine (500mg per pill) 1500mg upon wakeup,
-L-Phenylalanine (500mg per pill) 1000mg upon wakeup.

Those doses seem kinda high especially upon wake-up. 500mg of each seems more reasonable imo with some honey (same tactic as with caffeine).
If you want to dose so high you could at least wait till after breakfast to maintain a stable blood-sugar (similar tactic as with caffeine).

Experienced my first almost sleepless night last night, as I fully plan to have for a few weeks.

You could pre-empt this with a good dose of magnolol/honokiol, that'll do the job and pretty much guarantee quality sleep every night.

 

[NY2soFlo]

Rhodiola has an energising effect so probably best used before midday. I don't see any issues with the things you listed in your earlier post. Are you still taking the pharma meds, clonidine etc?


Those doses seem kinda high especially upon wake-up. 500mg of each seems more reasonable imo with some honey (same tactic as with caffeine).
If you want to dose so high you could at least wait till after breakfast to maintain a stable blood-sugar.


You could pre-empt this with a good dose of magnolol/honokiol, that'll do the job and pretty much guarantee quality sleep every night.

Awesome thank you. I took one pill of the rhodolia this morning. But I will at least get some sugar or starch in with it- and the phenylalanine and tyrosine. Dosage wise, I know it’s high, I havnt noticed or be able to pinpoint what’s doing what since there’s a lot of supps here.

No meds, the occasional half pill of clonidine if the caffeine buzz comes up and starts making my anxiety and blood sugar come up.

Also will do some research into magnolol/binomial for sleep. I’d prefer no more meds. Sleep med is only if absolutely needed, which would only be the case if nothing else is working. It’s typical of me to get 2-4 weeks of insomnia at night during early paws. So timing wise, it’s making sense.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Dosage wise, I know it’s high, I havnt noticed or be able to pinpoint what’s doing what since there’s a lot of supps here.

Yes, since you're using several things at once thats another reason to use normal-sized doses of L-Phe and L-Tyr (IMO).

Also will do some research into magnolol/binomial for sleep. I’d prefer no more meds. Sleep med is only if absolutely needed, which would only be the case if nothing else is working.
It’s typical of me to get 2-4 weeks of insomnia at night during early paws. So timing wise, it’s making sense.

If you forecast 2-4 weeks of that, magnolia extract should easily resolve it. You'd only be using it temporarily when needed, the plus is it lacks side-effects. It's another one of those traditional medicines.

Magnolia officinalis and Magnolia obovata bark extracts have been used for thousands of years in Chinese and Japanese traditional medicines and are still widely employed as herbal preparations for their sedative, antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, antibiotic, and antispastic effects. ...magnolol and honokiol, are the main substances responsible for the beneficial properties of the magnolia bark extract.
...
...intervention trials employing concentrated magnolia bark extract for up to 1 y did not report adverse effects. In conclusion, over the recent years different food safety authorities evaluated magnolol and honokiol and considered them safe. (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29925102/)

 

[NY2soFlo]

Update: 17 days clean
Physically, I'm feeling absolutely better. The fatigue is waning- could be my consistent use of the PAWS supps I mentioned above, or could be that I slept decently last night, or time, or all 3. Last night's sleep surely wasn't a normal full night, but I was sleeping and dreaming most of the night, a collective 6 hours, which I'll gladly take as progress. Especially after days of little to no sleep.

My appetite is ok, growing, but not crazy. I went to the gym last night and did not a FULL workout, but the best I've done yet. It's incredible how much it cleared me up mentally and physically. I already knew this, but even as a reminder is great.

If you forecast 2-4 weeks of that, magnolia extract should easily resolve it. You'd only be using it temporarily when needed, the plus is it lacks side-effects. It's another one of those traditional medicines.

I ordered the magnolia extract, should have it tomorrow. Very much looking forward to keeping this sleep thing going. And preferably without a sleep med. I also haven't taken any of the Rx meds in days, which I also think is helping me clear up. Thank you again!

 

[Allylbenzene]

Congrats on the progress!
Did you try sipping honey water during your workouts? The idea with that is to keep blood-sugar stable.

I ordered the magnolia extract, should have it tomorrow. Very much looking forward to keeping this sleep thing going. And preferably without a sleep med. I also haven't taken any of the Rx meds in days, which I also think is helping me clear up. Thank you again!

Nice one with reducing the Rx meds.
You could also see Magnolia extract as something that lowers stress and adrenaline. Anything which does that can technically be seen as a sleep med.
Most of the things you're taking do this either directy or indirectly.

 

[NY2soFlo]

Congrats on the progress!
Did you try sipping honey water during your workouts? The idea with that is to keep blood-sugar stable.


Nice one with reducing the Rx meds.
You could also see Magnolia extract as something that lowers stress and adrenaline. Anything which does that can technically be seen as a sleep med.
Most of the things you're taking do this either directy or indirectly.

The workout wasn't long or hard enough to need anything, I had just had a pretty big meal an hour or two beforehand. I have been eating honey straight up throughout the day... I've noticed my blood sugar definitely dips faster then before. I guess it makes sense as my metabolism is in high gear right now.

I figured the Rx meds I have were there really to just mask symptoms during WD. Once those symptoms are gone, they really have no place other then to slow down your return to normal.

 

[KetWise]

I think clonidine, benzos, trazadone, hydroxyzine and some good weed and oil would do the trick.

You can add pregab or gabapentin but beware of switching an addiction for another

Dose benzos (diazepam) and hydroxyzine during the day keep the trazadone (50-100mg) and clonidine(0.250mg) for the night. Smoke big joints, find some RSO.

Ketamine on paper would help but for me it doesnt work anymore. I would have to use so much that I'm better on opioids sadly.

 

[Allylbenzene]

I have been eating honey straight up throughout the day... I've noticed my blood sugar definitely dips faster then before.
I guess it makes sense as my metabolism is in high gear right now.

That's a very good point and probably widely underestimated when navigating detox/WD.
Even more relevant when using daily pro-metabolic tactics like low-dose aspirin, caffeine with proper support, agmatine, theanine, Rhodiola, vitamin B1, nicotinamide.

 

[NY2soFlo]

I think clonidine, benzos, trazadone, hydroxyzine and some good weed and oil would do the trick.

You can add pregab or gabapentin but beware of switching an addiction for another

Dose benzos (diazepam) and hydroxyzine during the day keep the trazadone (50-100mg) and clonidine(0.250mg) for the night. Smoke big joints, find some RSO.

Ketamine on paper would help but for me it doesnt work anymore. I would have to use so much that I'm better on opioids sadly.

That combo was doing the trick during the main WD but now coming on 3 weeks it's just doing nothing other than extra meds. I slept "decently" last night with a full belly, after a workout, and yes with a couple hits of good bud. My weed tolerance is nonexistent, so it doesn't take much. I don't know if that combo is what helped me sleep, or just needing to sleep after 4 essentially sleepless nights. I usually have a solid 2-3 weeks of NO sleep soon after Acute WD, and this follows the same pattern. Hoping to override it with my OTC supps, exercise, and eating well. This would be a first if I don't REQUIRE a sleep med.

I also don't want to get into benzos since this WD did come technically with its own mini Benzo detox (alongside mainly the fent). That is why I really made sure not to overuse the limited supply of (real) benzos I had. I took the valium taper as serious and smooth as I could. I know a little valium would help sleep but I've already crossed the bridge on that and have to just push through. I'm also quitting vaping too, although using a patch... so I don't think I'm feeling much negative from that, although who knows.