Kratom Has anyone had difficulties with suboxone not doing much for 7 hydroxy withdrawls?

[ickray]

I've been taking 7oh for almost four months now at around anywhere from 300 to 500mg a day, pushing off quitting for just one more week. You know the typical addict behavior. I have about 50 8mg suboxone strips so I figured when the bank account gets low enough I'll taper off with a short suboxone taper like I did with regular MIT extracts. I was taking upwards of 500mg+ a day of said MIT in the form of shots and capsules. A single 8mg strip of suboxone about 6 hours after my last dose of MIT not only took every single withdrawal symptom away, but I actually felt a bit of euphoria from the sub, something I'd never feel when using it come off of harder opiates in the past. With that first sub, all cravings for MIT dissipate.

Anyway, I know 7oh is much more potent than MIT but an 8mg sub even 12 hours after my last dose seemingly does nothing for my withdrawals. I'm still sweaty, nose running like crazy, aniexity through the roof. Not to mention the cravings for 7oh aren't dulled even a little bit. Worse of all, I can take 100mg and although slightly dulled, I can still feel most of it and my withdrawls dissappear for a few hours.

Has anyone else had issues like this where taking a potent drug like suboxone barley touches withdrawal from high dose 7oh? Either this stuff is much much more potent then we even know or the pharmacology still isn't truly known, because how can a drug like suboxone which has helped dull withdrawls from oxy and heroin in the past, not be able to touch a substance that is sold at virtually every smoke shop and corner store in America?

Looks like the plan is to jump back on MIT extract for a few days which actually helps dull about half of the withdrawal and then to a short sub taper. I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has had issues with subs who were taking high doses of 7oh daily.

 

[Tsimmons850]

1,000% understand what you're dealing with. I and prescribed oxy/hydro and with morphine. Somewhat small doses but have to take 80 mg of oxy. Help the withdrawals from 70h. At first I didn't want to believe that the 7oh was as potent I don't even get high off my prescriptions anymore, it is almost exactly like if I was on methadone. From what I read it has a binding Element to the receptor 14 times as Strong as morphine. So it pretty much on to the receptor and fills it up. But whatever The pharmacology is. Where you get yourself in trouble is ordering The 708 powders off of the internet. They don't sell 7oh powder extracts at smoke shops. But I agree, we're dealing with a huge misunderstanding of that drug. I was shocked when I caught myself wanting 70h been wanting My doc opiate.

 

[Coffeeshroom]

I don't know about using it for 7oh but even for H I disliked it. Subuxone works very differently some people. Like me personally. I get headaches and need higher dosages as to when I use just clean buprenorphine.

 

[Deleted member 585202]

I had a similar experience. I switched from 300mg 7oh to 2mg subs. It did not stop all of the withdrawals, but made it bearable. Took about 5 days to adjust. Now I'm stuck on subs, but it's more manageable.

 

[thurston]

Either this stuff is much much more potent then we even know or the pharmacology still isn't truly known

Yes

 

[Them Witches]

The 7-HOM is turning into an interesting topic and the people that take right now are the test studies

 

[Them Witches]

I am going to start referring to 7-OH & PI+7-OH as the "heroin versions" of Kratom. It seems to fit the bill well. I have a family member that is dependent of both and she has tapered her doses. Yet she gets bad withdrawals from it.

Side Note -- Due to the flood of "junk blues" moving into every area of the US, the demand for "real 30's" has gone up. Some people are selling their Rx's and some are getting $50 per 30mg. Just like 20 years ago when people could not afford Oxycotin OC's anymore, they moved to heroin. Except now instead of heroin it will be powder fentanyl or 7-OH& PI+7-OH The snowball keeps rolling right through summer.

 

[Kurt Cobain]

I've been taking 7oh for almost four months now at around anywhere from 300 to 500mg a day, pushing off quitting for just one more week. You know the typical addict behavior. I have about 50 8mg suboxone strips so I figured when the bank account gets low enough I'll taper off with a short suboxone taper like I did with regular MIT extracts. I was taking upwards of 500mg+ a day of said MIT in the form of shots and capsules. A single 8mg strip of suboxone about 6 hours after my last dose of MIT not only took every single withdrawal symptom away, but I actually felt a bit of euphoria from the sub, something I'd never feel when using it come off of harder opiates in the past. With that first sub, all cravings for MIT dissipate.

Anyway, I know 7oh is much more potent than MIT but an 8mg sub even 12 hours after my last dose seemingly does nothing for my withdrawals. I'm still sweaty, nose running like crazy, aniexity through the roof. Not to mention the cravings for 7oh aren't dulled even a little bit. Worse of all, I can take 100mg and although slightly dulled, I can still feel most of it and my withdrawls dissappear for a few hours.

Has anyone else had issues like this where taking a potent drug like suboxone barley touches withdrawal from high dose 7oh? Either this stuff is much much more potent then we even know or the pharmacology still isn't truly known, because how can a drug like suboxone which has helped dull withdrawls from oxy and heroin in the past, not be able to touch a substance that is sold at virtually every smoke shop and corner store in America?

Looks like the plan is to jump back on MIT extract for a few days which actually helps dull about half of the withdrawal and then to a short sub taper. I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has had issues with subs who were taking high doses of 7oh daily.

7oh has a higher binding affinity so my speculation is the 7 latches onto the receptors longer than we think kinda like fetty maybe but ime at same doses or higher of 7 subs did nothing at all for the first 4-5 days and I suspect it's due to the higher bindinf affinity and 7 sticking to the receptors longer than we think with Ira short half life.

 

[gymguy30]

I am going to start referring to 7-HOM & PI+7-HOM as the "heroin versions" of Kratom. It seems to fit the bill well. I have a family member that is dependent of both and she has tapered her doses. Yet she gets bad withdrawals from it.

Side Note -- Due to the flood of "junk blues" moving into every area of the US, the demand for "real 30's" has gone up. Some people are selling their Rx's and some are getting $50 per 30mg. Just like 20 years ago when people could not afford Oxycotin OC's anymore, they moved to heroin. Except now instead of heroin it will be powder fentanyl or 7-HOM & PI+7-HOM. The snowball keeps rolling right through summer.

7oh is bad man. It was more addicting to me mentally than Roxy’s were in a weird way.

 

[Opana313]

My buddy warned me about it. He also knows I'm usually on something whether it's sub or oxy. But that's Kratom for you..you have to keep taking it OR you will feel like shit..or tolerance will force you to feel like shit or until breaking point..

Point is to taper down any leaf kratom and even this here 70h. I love it, I think it's great and I can also see how easily one can spiral if they were to eat say 2 tabs or more a day.

The tablets, especially the single is the one I always buy, IF I feel it's time to use kratom,.. or maybe the 3 pack..but I only take a little over half after T break and works generously along with my sub taper BUT I did experience a mild WD after about 7 or 8 days on these not realizing I was close to 2 tabs a day roughly "14-19mg" tabs. Oh and I realized it was a kratom WD after a few days..it's a distinct type gut wrench imo and yes less shitting and more sweat but not as crazy as usual cold sweats are..it for sure was a strange wd.

So use caution FUCK im sorta interested in chewing/sublingual whole tablet or slightly more in one sitting after a break instead if a half here and quarter later regimen...might get super nod i haven't had in long while.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I believe this 7-Hydroxymitragynine stuff is in every way on the level with stuff like Oxycodone. I've been dealing with and reading more and more about this stuff as Kratom and now the extracts have exploded in popularity.

I've known Kratom addicts who match for Heroin addicts in their behavior and said behavior's effects on their lives. If Kratom was already of comparable potency to Codeine, then it stands to reason that the extract of the more powerful analog could produce a dependence too great for Buprenorphine to truly be effective. You would likely have better luck with Methadone at this point. This is the natural progression of these things.

If you really want to get off permanently, I would advise you to start a long-taper using Methadone, preferably through a clinic so you have guaranteed access. Start at 30mg-40mg and cut slowly over the course of several months. I respect anyone's desire to try doing this on their own using their DOC. However, it is rare in practice for addicts to do this successfully. Addicts don't typically heal themselves. You need to give up control of your executive function for a small time while you exercise that muscle that allows you to overcome cravings.

If you need anything else or have questions, let me know. I've worked with ~3 people who have had or are on their way to success through using Methadone like this. There is one guy who used Buprenorphine successfully, but he was just taking powder.

 

[Opana313]

I appreciate this kind advice and will keep you as an ace in the hole or trick of the sleeve so to speak! Seriously thank you.

Also I want to be clear, although I say love it..may just be the high itself as I chewed up maybe 12-15mg after a break. The withdrawal sucked but was moderate and my .5-ish intranasal dose had enough to punch through it and I probably skipped my usual 24hr dose for only 5 days or so. Also i jump around on benzos and waste oxy sometimes too but I am not at the least but worried here. Psychedelic experiences have really pushed me and I think here eventually all will be as it should and I will give up completely, my wife knows now,(thanks 2 psychedelics) such a massive step eliminated a huge craving trigger and the guilt of lying..but anyway thank you for the extra warning about this stuff here, what do you think about SR-17018?

I really do need to start Journaling as i go through this wonderfulhorrible life, pj ladd style with a drop of Tom Penny...but really journal not only for me but for fun as I like to write stories, and I would like to warn or give tips to my offspring so to speak-some crazy autobio drug addict journal handed down Sons Of Anarchy style LoL).

Also wanted to add i feel like im just too damn bored with this shit anymore(tired of fucking cigarettes too) or it's not sustainable(for all opiates/opioids, even benzos). I really do hope to be a completely free pain addict, free smoking stupid amounts of chronic that I've hopefully grown, while ingesting cacti and fungus and doing awesome shit like being happy!!

 

[Allylbenzene]

FYI, kratom is more than just an opioid.
Mitragynine for example has anti-withdrawl properties which 7-hydroxymitragynine lacks.
This partly explains why pure 7-hydroxymitragynine is problematic.

The major constituent, mitragynine, is also a proposed agonist at the adrenergic alpha-2 receptor, a mechanism that is currently utilized in opioid withdrawal therapies with mechanism of action similar to clonidine, a selective alpha-2 receptor agonist.

The Potential for Kratom as an Antidepressant and Antipsychotic - PMC

Mitragyna speciosa, otherwise known as kratom, is a plant in the coffee family (Rubiaceae) native to Southeast Asia and Thailand whose leaves have been shown to cause opioid-like and stimulant responses upon ingestion. The major pharmacologically ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In addition to opioid receptors, the adrenergic neurotransmitter system is another major pharmacological target of kratom in treating pain and opioid withdrawal symptoms.
...
Mitragynine was found to have moderate and non-selective binding affinities at alpha-1A, 1B, and 1D, and alpha-2A, 2B, and 2C adrenergic receptors.
...
Unlike mitragynine, 7-hydroxymitragynine had little to no binding affinity to both alpha-1 and alpha-2 adrenoreceptors

Kratom Alkaloids: Interactions With Enzymes, Receptors, and Cellular Barriers - PMC

Parallel to the growing use of kratom, there is a wealth of evidence from self-report, preclinical, and early clinical studies on therapeutic benefits of its alkaloids in particular for treating pain, managing substance use disorder, and coping with ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The otc supplement agmatine is well-suited for opioid cessation/withdrawls since it's also an alpha-2 receptor agonist (and NMDA antagonist).
It reduces tolerance build-up and potentiates most drugs. Particularly opioids, benzos and cannabinoids.

Mitragynine also works through cannabinoid receptors +

Mitragynine possesses a non-opioid action through alpha-2 adrenergic, adenosine (A2A), dopamine (D2), and serotonin (5-HT2A, 5-HT2C, 5-HT7) receptors.

https://cris.maastrichtuniversity.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/241930531/c8620.pdf

 

[Deleted member 585202]

The otc supplement agmatine is particularly well-suited for supporting opioid cessation/withdrawls since it's an alpha-2 receptor agonist and NMDA antagonist.
It reduces tolerance build-up and potentiates most drugs. Particularly opioids, benzos and cannabinoids.

I've experimented a lot with agmatine and 7oh/kratom, both as a potentiator and aid during withdrawal.

At first, agmatine is an excellent potentiator... until it's not. The combination runs into a large issue, I made a thread about this iirc but too lazy to look it up. Agmatine potentiates the opioid effect at first, but tolerance to this effect develops extremely rapidly after just 1 or 2 doses. The combination also causes headaches (at least in me), but the main issue is that kratom alkaloids inhibit vasopressin (7oh not so much, more mit and kratom powder). It's a potent diuretic in me by itself. Agmatine also inhibits vasopressin. After taking this combination for a few days with the goal of tapering/reducing tolerance I began urinating so insanely frequently that it was a critical issue. Beyond the annoyance of having to urinate every ~45 minutes all day AND all night (literally), it dehydrated the fuck out of me no matter how much water I drank, it all came right out. It basically kills your body's ability for water retention. It's not sustainable. It dehydrates me so much the skin on my hands starts painfully cracking and peeling. It seems to suck all the water out of your extremities.

Also, I've tried agmatine just straight for withdrawal purposes, and it does seem to help, but the amount of help it provides is not distinguishable from placebo, at least not from heavy/severe withdrawal.

I was super hyped on agmatine for awhile, but not so much anymore. I do, however, find it more useful for moderate alcohol or benzo withdrawal, particularly alcohol withdrawal for me. It makes me feel better, more noticeably than opioid withdrawal. It's a nifty supplement, but like most "opioid aids" it's a bit overblown.

Mitragynine also works through cannabinoid receptors +

It also upregulates cannabinoid receptors, which leads to unpleasant potentiation of cannabis, particularly the anxiety and pychedelic effects. Kratom powder ruined cannabis for me. The combo is unpleasant. 7oh is OK with weed tho, I guess.

 

[Allylbenzene]

[edit] - just read your posts on the other vaping 7-oh thread. wow. pretty big tolerance...

Thanks for the insights.
I've heard a similar thing from the ketamine subreddit. Someone was using agmatine for it's ketamine-like anti-depressant properties and said it eventually stopped working. I've also read many positive reports of agmatine for benzo/opioid-related issues. Individual biochemistry plays a big role in how someone will respond to agmatine. Worth noting that agmatine is also a neurotransmitter which might explain some of these outcomes.

Addressing any metabolic issues is worth considering as part of the overall healing strategy.
This post gives a good insight on why it's important. This one applies it to coffee.

It also upregulates cannabinoid receptors, which leads to unpleasant potentiation of cannabis, particularly the anxiety and pychedelic effects. Kratom powder ruined cannabis for me. The combo is unpleasant. 7oh is OK with weed tho, I guess.

On that note, some studies found mitragynine might block D2 and 5-HT2A which is similar to anti-psychotics. There are of course many other alkaloids at play.

I figure these might help with light/moderate withdrawals or for general potentiation.
- myrhh (oil or CO2 extract)
- curcumin
- theanine (GABA, upregulates dopamine via GDNF)
- cannabigerol (alpha-2 adrenergic agonist)

(note - it would be best to try these individually at low doses to check they're well tolerated)

 

[Deleted member 585202]

[edit] - just read your posts on the other vaping 7-oh thread. wow. pretty big tolerance...

Recently, yeah. Although my use was not as severe when I was using agmatine, recently it's out of control.

and yet I gawk at the people using even more than I !

using agmatine for it's ketamine-like anti-depressant properties and said it eventually stopped working.

I've actually experienced this a few times. I've felt acute anti-depressant effects after dosing 1g of agmatine. Palpable, far from placebo. Vaguely reminiscent of NMDA like anti-depression.

It was quite nice, but was fleeting and difficult to reproduce.

Agmatine is one of those handful of supplements that borderlines being psychoactive. It's not psychoactive, but it's effect is powerful and immediate enough that it can feel that way. Similar to NAC or l-theanine, etc...

On that note, some studies found mitragynine might block D2 and 5-HT2A which is similar to anti-psychotics. There are of course many other alkaloids at play.

It's difficult to elucidate the action of mit and related alkaloids on d2 and 5ht.

Several years ago I experienced psychosis from kratom alkaloids, and clearly the reason was due to it's action at those two receptors, likely 5HT, but that's a really long story I don't feel like typing out again tonight.

 

[Allylbenzene]

I've actually experienced this a few times. I've felt acute anti-depressant effects after dosing 1g of agmatine. Palpable, far from placebo. Vaguely reminiscent of NMDA like anti-depression.

Agmatine is also a neurotransmitter. That's probably one of the reasons it affects people so differently. Different 'agmatinergic tone'.

Vaguely reminiscent of NMDA like anti-depression.

Have you ever tried other NMDA antagonists like memantine, ketamine, amantadine? (ibogaine also but it has a strong psychedelic character)

Agmatine is one of those handful of supplements that borderlines being psychoactive. It's not psychoactive,

I've seen several posts on reddit of people saying it has very real psychoactive effects. From personal expereince I'd agree.
I mean considering it interacts with NMDA, alpha-2 adrenergic, sigma-1, imidazoline, alpha-7-nicotinic, AMPA, 5-HT1 + 2 receptors and mTOR.
[edit] Here's one of the best reports on agmatine as a psychoactive.


Have you ever looked into myrrh extract (delta opioid), cannabigerol or theanine for helping withdrawls?

 

[Deleted member 585202]

Have you ever tried other NMDA antagonists like memantine, ketamine, amantadine? (ibogaine also but it has a strong psychedelic character)

Dissos were never my cup of tea, but yes, I have done ketamine, MXE, and a PCP derivative.

I've seen several posts on reddit of people saying it has very real psychoactive effects. From personal expereince I'd agree.
I mean considering it interacts with NMDA, alpha-2 adrenergic, sigma-1, imidazoline, alpha-7-nicotinic, AMPA, 5-HT1 + 2 receptors and mTOR.
[edit] Here's one of the best reports on agmatine as a psychoactive.

I definitely never felt anything like that, and I've used doses up to 2g. The only thing I felt reminiscent of psychoactivity was a mood lift and energy boost.

Have you ever looked into myrrh extract (delta opioid), cannabigerol or theanine for helping withdrawls?

I have not. Although, I find theanine useful in 400-600mg doses. Feels a bit psychoactive at that dose, but tolerance to theanine develops rapidly at those dose ranges.

 

[Josephine_Morphine]

I fucked around with 7OH enough that I ended up begging for Suboxone. I'm on benzos though so they dropped me after three months. I managed to save enough though to get me through about a year. I only take 1mg every 12 hours though. It's not much but keeps me from being sick.

I would think you need a higher Suboxone dose if 8mg doesn't fix you. They almost always give 24 to 32mg for people who use fentanyl because of it's strength compared to everything else, the withdrawal is so much worse. I never took high doses of 7OH, so 1mg every 12 hours fixes me for whatever reason

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

Think bupe has a ceiling dose of 24 mg (Hence the problem) as full I do not believe 7 oh has a ceiling dosage. at lets say 4x morphines potency you get to a gram a day that's a hell of a tolerance (Powder/RC only level just about)

allelylbenzene(sp) -- Thanks for driving this thread.