Yeah I think its the people who get up to the rly high doses 30-50 grams a day or so its really bad for. If you can use it in moderation like you are its not so bad. Also at that dose I don't think I even experienced opiate effects from it (maybe some really weak ones). Just a slight mood uplift I definitely didnt feel high or euphoric.
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BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Does kratom withdrawal feel terrible for anybody else?
- Thread starter Okiv99
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Fresco
Bluelighter
Kratom is not dangerous at all at those dosages.
Its one of the safest drugs out there
jasperkent
Bluelighter
I suspect that such a relatively low dose, along with weekly breaks, might never cause any problems.
I salute you.
chippermonk
Bluelighter
In my case, I use a lot less than that, more like a couple times a week, 2g max. An almost embarrassingly small amount. But I still feel like it's fucking with my head. I get high once or twice, I come down, I crave for a few days, I get back to normal, I do it again, etc. All laid against some depression I'm going through.
So no physical addiction ( yay) but it fucks with my mood. I want to do more but I hold back through willpower, and the conflict disrupts my stability and mood. Kind of a bullshit phase these days. I feel like for me personally ( not speaking for anyone else's situation) that I ought to throw it away but I don't really want to. I've never had this issue with other drugs, but it's also legal, cheap, and easy to get.
This is the real danger of moderate opioid use/chipping/whatever. Opioids, even at low doses provide you with a good deal of dopamine, which facilitates learning (ie formation and strengthening of neural connections). Over time (like multiple years) the pull gets greater.
The short duration of kratom makes it more reinforcing, especially once dependent, as the act of taking a drug, the ensuing rise in plasma concentration, and the fall of the plasma level is kind of the raw currency of psychological addiction. If one were to have a constant drip of kratom alkaloids which maintained blood levels constantly, they would develop less of a psychological dependence than if they were just dosing to stay well over the same time span.
However the physical dependence would likely develop similarly (ie it is more closely linked to the area under the curve of plasma levels over time, rather than discrete dosing events).
notsmokeymcpot42088
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I was real surprised to hear 7-oh is at smokeshopes. Trip report to come --- long time user between 1-2mg bupe daily. Gotta try it once lol
chippermonk
Bluelighter
Yeah, thanks, that makes sense to me. I have tried switching up drugs, so for example like last week taking a small kratom dose one day, a small Vicodin dose the next, then a small Ritalin the 3rd, then nothing for 4 days. But of course there is overlap of effects between drugs, particularly the Vicodin and kratom. It's only the kraton I get the real craving for. I think it's partly because it's a bit of a stimulant, and I also think if works like an antidepressant, like how tramadol does. I mean I often will go a week or two taking no kratom, but the craving has still gotten stronger.
I'd be curious if there are any studies or articles on this phenomena that you are talking about, and about kratom in particular. Everything is always about full blown physical addiction, daily use, but there is the intermediate stage that I feel like I am. Though I'm perhaps being a little melodramatic.
Anyhow, thanks for the advice
emkee_reinvented
Bluelighter
Terrible i would save for other drugs, inconvenient but necessary.
From time to time, and i was taking maybe 15 grams max a day.
No terrible is Alcohol WD, GHB// GBL irritating.
Never messed with Heroine / Crack, but Alcohol is a 3 week hell.
And then PAWS, and boredom facing the shit you caused.
After tapering Kratom, 3 days flu like but still functional.
Like Kids/ School/ Diner. repsonseability s ed.
And it caused no shit, it was doping.
From time to time, and i was taking maybe 15 grams max a day.
No terrible is Alcohol WD, GHB// GBL irritating.
Never messed with Heroine / Crack, but Alcohol is a 3 week hell.
And then PAWS, and boredom facing the shit you caused.
After tapering Kratom, 3 days flu like but still functional.
Like Kids/ School/ Diner. repsonseability s ed.
And it caused no shit, it was doping.
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For me it's not really all that bad, and I've been dependent on kratom off and on for a long time. At least compared to more traditional hard opioids, it's never really been in the same league for me.
That said, it does seem to last a long time and have a major PAWS component
That said, it does seem to last a long time and have a major PAWS component
I don’t have any studies regarding this about kratom. I am extrapolating from a study which uses cocaine, as the VTA dependent aspects of psychological addiction is shared by opioids and cocaine.
Below is a study which compares free access with interrupted access to cocaine demonstrating quite an acceleration of use.
Less is more: prolonged intermittent access cocaine self-administration produces incentive-sensitization and addiction-like behavior - PMC
Contemporary animal models of cocaine addiction focus on increasing the amount of drug consumption to produce addiction-like behavior. However, another critical factor is the temporal pattern of consumption, which in humans is characterized by ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The below paper shows the convergence in nucleus accumbens dopamine release from a bunch of drugs (amohetamine, cocaine, morphine, methadone, ethanol, and nicotine).
jasperkent
Bluelighter
This was a factor I hadn't considered until recently, but yes, that makes sense.
Absolutely. The stimulant effect plus the mood elevation make kratom extremely appealing to me as a "work drug." This is exactly the way I was using oxycodone in the past. If I could retire or at least take 2 or 3 weeks off from my busy restaurant job, I'm sure I could taper quickly and probably quit.
Right now those are not options.
intergalacticBG
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Safe in that you won’t die? Sure. But I wouldn’t consider it “safe” in many other affects, especially if one has an addictive personality.
For me, it controls my every day. My thought process. But then again, I’ve taken it daily for 9 years.
It’s just as much mental as it is physical, but it has fucked with my body in many different ways.
In and of itself, it can be relatively benign, but for some people it can cause a lot of issues, especially using it daily for a long time.
I wouldn’t call it dangerous in a literal sense. Never felt any respiratory depression or anything that could actually kill you, so I agree with that.
But addicting? For me, Absolutely. Nasty Side effects? 100%
Again, these are just my thoughts, though. I know everyone is different. But I just can’t kick this shit. Kicking Vicodin was no problem for me, but when it comes to kratom, it has fucked my brain chemistry up (and some other very bizarre physical issues.)
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Fresco
Bluelighter
What I would do is get a hold of some codeine, then quit the kratom, and use codeine pills to stave off WD symptoms.
Of course codeine itself is addictive too, but if you say you had no problem kicking Vikes, then you should have no problem kicking codeine also.
Just my 2 cents
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Yeah, I understand the psychological part too. For me, the times I did take breaks from Kratom were as hard as quitting smoking cigarettes. Giving up nicotine was very hard for me, but I did it 30 years ago. People have had lungs removed and could not stop smoking. But if you look at the physical part of nicotine withdrawal, hungry, and tired is not bad. Hungry is good It’s the psychological part that makes it harder. So psychological is powerful too.
It’s like that with Kratom for me. That desire for a pick me up, more so than energy drinks or any other form of caffeine is strong with kratom. Not as strong as something heavier like cocaine, but a nagging desire for a pick me up. Society is geared for that, that’s why we have energy drinks.
I sort of need kratom now but regularly go 48 hours between. I get the lethargy, sneezing, But I get some feeling back. Feels good in ways in other ways feel too much. Music is better. Less foggy. Even crying but not sick. If I take gabapentin I feel fine. Get some energy.
I see people saying they take xxx mgs of 7-OH. I wonder how much 7-OH is in 10 gr of regular leaf? Is kratom a pro drug concept where the body turns mitragynine into 7-OH? I often wonder how much more synthetic some of the variations are. So I have been reading the posts in those threads. I actually think we should categorize all forms and describe them.
The stuff has been a blessing to me in that I have been and am in situations where I would use something stronger if kratom was not around. it is at least a little something safe for me at the moment as I walk across a rocky river. 10 gr of plain leaf is fairly safe. And I don't get temped with other drugs that are all around. lol I am a good boy. Thank you kratom.
Yeah a lot of addictive things in this world. `I like the Dale Pendell approach. Most of us do not head. Some plants have pretty flowers as well as thorns to hurt. We have to be wise.
It’s like that with Kratom for me. That desire for a pick me up, more so than energy drinks or any other form of caffeine is strong with kratom. Not as strong as something heavier like cocaine, but a nagging desire for a pick me up. Society is geared for that, that’s why we have energy drinks.
That is my feeling. Who knows how things affect people though. I believe people. And I do not have experience beyond good quality powder or leaf. F*ck those shots or pills. I would only take then from people who would know. But because some of us have been through some horrendous type withdraws, I’ve often said I cannot picture a person going into a plush and expensive 30 day rehab just for Kratom. Couches and therapy not needed. Proper taper with some willpower is needed. I’ve never had buprenorphine. So I can’t say how much stronger it is. But I do trust when a lot of you say it is a lot stronger. However, if it brings balance to a person all the more power to them. You do what you have to. I mean we all do what we want to anyway. I often wonder if anyone went on methadone because of kratom. Ouch. Hope not. I kicked that 3 times. One time in jail of course like all serious addicts have experienced. The good thing that was almost 35 years ago my last time. But after that I kicked many poppy tea habits until 2011. Then nothing. Drinking. Not good. then stopped drinking and use kratom twice a day.
I sort of need kratom now but regularly go 48 hours between. I get the lethargy, sneezing, But I get some feeling back. Feels good in ways in other ways feel too much. Music is better. Less foggy. Even crying but not sick. If I take gabapentin I feel fine. Get some energy.
I see people saying they take xxx mgs of 7-OH. I wonder how much 7-OH is in 10 gr of regular leaf? Is kratom a pro drug concept where the body turns mitragynine into 7-OH? I often wonder how much more synthetic some of the variations are. So I have been reading the posts in those threads. I actually think we should categorize all forms and describe them.
The stuff has been a blessing to me in that I have been and am in situations where I would use something stronger if kratom was not around. it is at least a little something safe for me at the moment as I walk across a rocky river. 10 gr of plain leaf is fairly safe. And I don't get temped with other drugs that are all around. lol I am a good boy. Thank you kratom.
Yeah a lot of addictive things in this world. `I like the Dale Pendell approach. Most of us do not head. Some plants have pretty flowers as well as thorns to hurt. We have to be wise.
notsmokeymcpot42088
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I agree it has that "poppy pod" effect where you do not know exactly how many things you are w/d'ing from and curing them with anything else may be very difficult/not as interchangeable as most?
I have been reading for years and have not decided if it is a plausible way to jump off bupe at the end or about equal monsters. I did see one person successfully quite bupe but they were down to like 1/64 a day and still pretty sick for a couple weeks. Also a bit elderly and some other medical ish going on --- took kratom 3 times and said it did help but wasnt worth it digestion wise.
I have been reading for years and have not decided if it is a plausible way to jump off bupe at the end or about equal monsters. I did see one person successfully quite bupe but they were down to like 1/64 a day and still pretty sick for a couple weeks. Also a bit elderly and some other medical ish going on --- took kratom 3 times and said it did help but wasnt worth it digestion wise.
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Here is what I learned. One time I used kratom to come off poppy tea. I believe kratom sort of fills in and makes the withdrawal linger. You still get the bupe/poppy withdrawal even weeks after just using kratom. When I used kratom from the start as a virgin with no opiates the quitting is much easier. But I think it carries over the heavier withdrawals. I always imagined (and I do not know how this really works) that an opiate like morphine would cause new receptors to grow. They have to die to balance out. But kratom will fill those in. So that kick will be hard.
One of the easiest kratom kicks was when I was healthy, not using opiates (in a rare time period) and tapered off kratom without much issue. Using it to come off heavier stuff it seems to carry it over, even for months. So when someone uses kratom to come off and say they are having a hard time I still think the original opiate damage is still there until total abstinence.
So if someone is looking to ease off something don't substitute. Just slowly lower. I was just talking to a friend down to 1 mg of sub but really struggling to just stop. I really like the 1/64 a day Slow. I had a friend who was a baby with heroin withdrawal. A real complainer. He went on methadone. But he went down very slow. Down to .25 mgs and lower. He got off without much issue. We were amazed. Slow.
I just want to say most of my dope days were pre internet. We used mail and pay phones that needed a dime. There was NO mention of PAWS. I am so glad. I always felt great after a kick. Like pound my fist at the sky and say "fuck yeah!!". I wrestled a bull down and came out the other side. Always felt great. Now I have to read about PAWS. I mean even when I had to go to NA people that kicked felt great after a kick. No internet and no PAWS! (no HPPD either) Now we doom scroll. lol
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notsmokeymcpot42088
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I have to admit I haven't had the HARDEST ride. Had to detox once a month for probation but that was alledgedly back when tramadol was plenty and didn't show up so I wasn't COMPLETELY taking the full brunt. Other time I had a sub script -- Did not at the time of getting a constructive mj paraphenalia charge (eyeroll) but knew they were going to send me to rehab and was deeper in this time so I flagged myself -- showed up with a nice little note from my suboxone doctor about how I joined a rehab clinic and was receiving counseling as even before that night I new I needed help. (Good shit, god bless professionals!)
this is messed up but one of the sickest I have ever been was 4 days off sub waiting for my phine connect to come through. (Turns out he finally ripped me off after many many yrs). I have used sub a little early and went into what i have to guess was MILD PWD (loss of stomach control, sweating profusely, unable to keep stable temperature) but only for about an hour or two.
Really I didnt even get sick according to the cows scale to get ON bupe ---- Now I am 25 yrs in and I am sure I am forgetting some hard times here and there. Familliar with the COWS (I believe) scale --- Yea I am between 1-2 mg right now and plan to get down to about 1/32 every other day because 1/64th is just enough to see exists(our elderly diabetic cat was taking more than this person lol)
Yea I got the PAWS for benzos and I dont know if they will ever go away and I know what ya mean -- may as well not know they are a thing and just be happy for the health I do have! (and yes im still on those too shutup)
Shioot if I get out of a 25 yr opi habit with no super serious withdrawals that is like the pitching a no hitter of drugs --- at least that is how I will motivate myself. Nolan Ryan out!
this is messed up but one of the sickest I have ever been was 4 days off sub waiting for my phine connect to come through. (Turns out he finally ripped me off after many many yrs). I have used sub a little early and went into what i have to guess was MILD PWD (loss of stomach control, sweating profusely, unable to keep stable temperature) but only for about an hour or two.
Really I didnt even get sick according to the cows scale to get ON bupe ---- Now I am 25 yrs in and I am sure I am forgetting some hard times here and there. Familliar with the COWS (I believe) scale --- Yea I am between 1-2 mg right now and plan to get down to about 1/32 every other day because 1/64th is just enough to see exists(our elderly diabetic cat was taking more than this person lol)
Yea I got the PAWS for benzos and I dont know if they will ever go away and I know what ya mean -- may as well not know they are a thing and just be happy for the health I do have! (and yes im still on those too shutup)
Shioot if I get out of a 25 yr opi habit with no super serious withdrawals that is like the pitching a no hitter of drugs --- at least that is how I will motivate myself. Nolan Ryan out!
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I am pressed for time and have not fully read all the responses. I am very likely addicted to Kratom...but less so than I am to Coffee. When I was 36 and 100% clean and sober I felt good (was 100% clean and sober for about 18 years). Now at my advanced age (62) being clean and sober I just feel like crap, particularly at night. I still work out incredibly hard and have many injuries.
Kratom makes me feel halfway decent so I suppose there is some very mild addiction there. It gives me enough boost to run my dog at night, 2 hours after my workout. But I never increase my dosage over 5 grams and always take a couple of days off. Sometimes 3 days a week. Now yes, I did some X Saturday night followed by a Xanax to sleep then Sunday I did absolutely nothing.
My main concern is real opioids. I have a bunch (fent, real Oxy, and Tramadol....and a pretty much unlimited access to fent). My BIG worry is not to get hooked on that stuff, and I have been good only getting high once a week, and then a pretty modest high.
This is just me, but as long as I am limiting my use of REAL hard core opioids to once a week, I am OK doing small amounts of kratom.
Kratom makes me feel halfway decent so I suppose there is some very mild addiction there. It gives me enough boost to run my dog at night, 2 hours after my workout. But I never increase my dosage over 5 grams and always take a couple of days off. Sometimes 3 days a week. Now yes, I did some X Saturday night followed by a Xanax to sleep then Sunday I did absolutely nothing.
My main concern is real opioids. I have a bunch (fent, real Oxy, and Tramadol....and a pretty much unlimited access to fent). My BIG worry is not to get hooked on that stuff, and I have been good only getting high once a week, and then a pretty modest high.
This is just me, but as long as I am limiting my use of REAL hard core opioids to once a week, I am OK doing small amounts of kratom.
chippermonk
Bluelighter
I'm sure someone else can give you a different opinion than mine. I really feel for you, wanting to get high and also worrying about getting addicted. And I think it sounds like you are keeping it from becoming a true physical addiction. I can relate to this personally. I think you're doing well at your self control. Kudos!
I do think it might be easy to slip, and you have all kinds of stuff to aid that happening. I also think kratom really is an opioid ( see what Kief had to say ) A partial agonist and not in the true opiate family, but it still works on the opioid receptors, has some sort of cross tolerance, and has much the same effect. It does seem like a kratom habit is not as bad as a true opioid habit and that maybe you would be safer if you stuck strictly to kratom? Definitely stay away from the fent! But any of those true opioids could get your tolerance up a lot higher.
I don't much useful to say, I guess, but be careful my friend!
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notsmokeymcpot42088
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So you take 5 grams of kratom 3 days a week as you have been experiencing some pain. This is the pessimistic outlook 100% I warn you.
If I were you as I aged I would climb the opi ladder while still remaining a "chipper" as long as you can possibly hold onto it. Took me almost 20 yrs to get from 10mg hydrocodone to a couple of bags of dope with a growing chipping habit. Hyrdo should be good for a couple years, oxy a few, morphine a few.
The less you use the more effective they will be for pain. Once a week will not make you an addict but daily kratom use will, 3 days out of the week is tough to maintain but if you can you will be ok habit-wise, well 4th day on opi's -- you are riding the border.