Opioids I want to use opioids but I'm on suboxone

[Cuncefuct]

Hey fellow blueys!
I'm a former heroin addict and I've been on suboxone for the past 3 years now. I'm currently on 12mg down from 24mg and I live in Australia. The only reason that is relevant is because the way the suboxone program works here is you start off having to go to the chemist everyday to recieve your dose and they have to supervise you taking it. After a month or so of that, they only have to supervise one dose and give you 6 "take aways" and you onlg have to go weekly. I'm currently sitting on a cache of 14 × 20mg of Targin (oxycodone 20mg/naloxone 10mg) and I want to experience that warmth again.

During the weeks after my supervised dose I have been tapering my dose down to 2-4mg a day (excluding the one day a week i have to go to the chemist). I'm well aware of buprenorphines binding affinity is stronger than naloxones, and it can take anywhere from 72 hours to a over week to completely clear your system of suboxone, also depending on the variables of metabolism and amount of time on suboxone. Last time I tried this I took 320mg of oxy, 360mg of codeine with some tarpentadol after waiting three days after my dose and it wasn't very noticeable and wasn't worth the withdrawal, but I also didn't taper my bupe down beforehand. But now I have 280mg of oxy and I want to make the most of them, so my plan is to keep my dose below 2mg during those 6 days before I go back to the chemist and see how that goes.

Does anyone have any advice on how I could best go about this? I know a fair bit about suboxone given how long I've been on it and how much I frequent this site, but I still have a lot more to learn. Is there any way this could be done or should I just come off the bupe? Or maybe even switch to Methadone?

Thank you all for any and all input, and stay safe out there. xo

 

[Cuncefuct]

Also wanted to say before someone mentions it; I am aware precipitated withdrawal and am fairly confident I can avoid it. I know I need to be in full withdrawals before resuming my subs.

 

[Cuncefuct]

I have now attempted this twice with varying methods. The second attempt was much more successful but not as euphoric as I remember. If you would like an update lmk

 

[Keif' Richards]

Hey there buddy!

I have some bad news. It's really pretty much impossible to experience the true euphoria of Opioids with Buprenorphine in your system. If you got your daily dose to something like 0.2-0.4mg Buprenorhine per day, it's possible you could have a positive experience. However, in my experience, you're not going to be satisfied with anything other than fully withdrawing from Buprenorphine for several days before then consuming your Opioids.

I would advise you to abandon the idea. You're left with a few possible outcomes: disappointment, slight euphoria or full-on relapse onto other Opioids. Most people who have had serious Opioid habits can experience euphoria following periods of complete abstinence. The problem is that you have 3 days of usage at most before you will be literally at the worst point of dependence that you have ever experienced.

I will not tell you not to do this, though my advice is to seek out something else for your happiness. For people like you and me, Opioids only work for a finite period of time before they stop working. In my experience, they do not ever truly "work" again. This whole cycle is practically a law regarding Opioid dependence.

 

[HealingEnergy14]

If you been on opioids for a serious amount of time, no matter if that's long-term maintenance or just using yourself, you're going to have to accept that you will not feel GOOD from opioids anymore on a regular basis.

You can quit, be clean for like 3 months and then you will feel nice again for atleast 1 dose, perhaps a few more even!

After that you will be right where you started though, tolerance wise. Personally for me, at that point it isn't worth it anymore.

Better find a way to slowly taper and quit, you're not going to get "THAT" high while simultaneous being on subuxone anyway.

Trust me, it seems unbelievable, but when you're through the first 4-6 months you will really have moments where you feel GOOD again without opioids.

 

[gymguy30]

A couple years ago I had taken like 4mg of suboxone for like a week straight then took 2 days off the subs and got ahold of about 200mg of Roxy’s. And I felt like I waisted my money on them. I barely felt any euphoria etc.

 

[Cuncefuct]

Thank you all for your input! I really appreciate it and I have an update. I kinda resigned to the fact I wouldn't be able to appreciate all of what these drugs had to offer but I was still content on trying. And my experience was a lot more powerful than I anticipated. I tapered my subs down to 1/4 of a 2mg film and stayed on that for a little over a week. I took all the Targin at once (12 × 20mg/10mg) I thought the naloxone would accumulate and ruin it - even though the oral BI is roughly only 2-3% -but it didnt at all. I broke one in half and made sure not to let it absorb sublingually. I then waited an hour and a half to take some promethazine (100mg staggered throughout) and 19 × 5mg Oxycodone split up into a few different ROA's (oral, rectal and insufflated). The experience itself was POWERFUL. Not as intense as IV heroin but rather close with a gradual onset, I even started nodding at one point and even wondered if it was too much. I think I experienced about 80% of what it had to offer. I do want to state here that what I did was rather stupid, and a dose that high would kill most people and I've basically tossed 3 years of relative sobriety out the window, but I'm resuming my subs soon because I can't go back completely. I know I've played with fire for too long now that if I went back completely it will kill me. If you are like me and reading this, I wouldn't recommend it even though it "worked". As much as I want to stay clean this experience reminded me why I would happily waste my life away for something that is fleeting. Besides my tolerance sky-rocketed in a single use and realistically, I could only accomplish this once and doing it all over again by tapering my subs so low that I'm in some amount of withdrawal is more hassle than its worth. But hey... I fucked around and found out that I don't want this for me, even if I enjoyed it. Some things are just too good to be true, and I'm as grateful as I am astonished to still be alive.

 

[fentferret]

Thank you all for your input! I really appreciate it and I have an update. I kinda resigned to the fact I wouldn't be able to appreciate all of what these drugs had to offer but I was still content on trying. And my experience was a lot more powerful than I anticipated. I tapered my subs down to 1/4 of a 2mg film and stayed on that for a little over a week. I took all the Targin at once (12 × 20mg/10mg) I thought the naloxone would accumulate and ruin it - even though the oral BI is roughly only 2-3% -but it didnt at all. I broke one in half and made sure not to let it absorb sublingually. I then waited an hour and a half to take some promethazine (100mg staggered throughout) and 19 × 5mg Oxycodone split up into a few different ROA's (oral, rectal and insufflated). The experience itself was POWERFUL. Not as intense as IV heroin but rather close with a gradual onset, I even started nodding at one point and even wondered if it was too much. I think I experienced about 80% of what it had to offer. I do want to state here that what I did was rather stupid, and a dose that high would kill most people and I've basically tossed 3 years of relative sobriety out the window, but I'm resuming my subs soon because I can't go back completely. I know I've played with fire for too long now that if I went back completely it will kill me. If you are like me and reading this, I wouldn't recommend it even though it "worked". As much as I want to stay clean this experience reminded me why I would happily waste my life away for something that is fleeting. Besides my tolerance sky-rocketed in a single use and realistically, I could only accomplish this once and doing it all over again by tapering my subs so low that I'm in some amount of withdrawal is more hassle than its worth. But hey... I fucked around and found out that I don't want this for me, even if I enjoyed it. Some things are just too good to be true, and I'm as grateful as I am astonished to still be alive.

I’m in the same boat atm, been taking 4mg subs a day for a few months now and am tryna party this weekend, I was thinking what if I Narcan myself a couple times, wouldn’t that in theory kick the bupe off my receptors?

 

[helpingout]

Try getting your inobserved doses below 2 mg and your observed dose just scrape off your gums after the chemist. Get your dose down to sub 1 mg and use the day before the chemist and you’d probably be able to hit. Probably. Like everyone else has said has been my experience as well.

 

[4DQSAR]

Hey there buddy!

I have some bad news. It's really pretty much impossible to experience the true euphoria of Opioids with Buprenorphine in your system. If you got your daily dose to something like 0.2-0.4mg Buprenorhine per day, it's possible you could have a positive experience. However, in my experience, you're not going to be satisfied with anything other than fully withdrawing from Buprenorphine for several days before then consuming your Opioids.

At the end of the day, the truth is that all buprenorphine and methadone REALLY do is to make other opioids much less euphoric and much more unpredictasble.

Buprenorphine especially has many dangerous myths surrounding it.

 

[Cuncefuct]

I’m in the same boat atm, been taking 4mg subs a day for a few months now and am tryna party this weekend, I was thinking what if I Narcan myself a couple times, wouldn’t that in theory kick the bupe off my receptors?

That will most likely not work. And would be hell if it did. Buprenorphine has a slightly higher binding affinity that naloxone. Meaning in the rare cases of bupe overdoses it requires a constant iv drip of naloxone to compete for the same receptors that the bupe is occupying. Please don't try this. I've also had this line of thought, but after some research, it became apparent that it wouldn't have the desired outcome you want and might just make you feel really sick. And you'd have to sit with that for at least 90 mins before you can use again. Even after the narcan is gone, all the bupe that is still in your system (due to its long half-life) may just bind back to those receptors. Either way it doesn't immediately lower your tolerance especially with bupe. There is also the risk of seizure from Narcan administration, depending on how dependant you are. It can be a hell of a shock to the system. But I'd understand if you are still going to/already have tried it. I'm in no place to judge because I did/do that shit all the time. But that doesn't make it okay, I'm astonished I'm not dead and I'm only 25. There's still a lot we don't understand about both naloxone and bupe, making them quite unpredictable at the best of times.

 

[nurdrage]

A couple years ago I had taken like 4mg of suboxone for like a week straight then took 2 days off the subs and got ahold of about 200mg of Roxy’s. And I felt like I waisted my money on them. I barely felt any euphoria etc.

I think most of the tolerance stays there no matter how long you wait, I had the same exact scenario happen to me (and my wife)

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

People really bought the "Suboxone will block you from getting high at all" hook, line & sinker.

Full agonists absolutely will work on Subs if your dose of subs is low. And you may need a little higher dose of the full agonist.
It WILL block if you're taking doses over 2-4mg daily. But you can push through this blockade which is not recommended cause it could cause an OD once the bupe starts wearing off.

And if you really know what you're doing, you can use subs to actually potentiate full agonists.

I've noticed though that full agonists euphoria does not seem anything like it was before I was on Subs 9 years. So I think long term bupe can also affect the way other opioids feel subjectively.

 

[4DQSAR]

@DeathIndustrial88 - I agree with everything you say.

I just wanted to add that many years ago I was talking to a French user who was prescribed Subutex (sublingual tablets) and who was injecting them. In their words 'you can feel a little odd for the first 10-15 minutes but then it's fine'.

It's often difficult to obtain reliable affinity data, especially now the Ki Database isn't available to the public BUT it does seem that the affinity values of buprenorphine and naloxone are quite similar. But don't forget, the mixture represents a competitive antagonist.

I have no idea what the parentheral consumption of buprenorphine is like but at least one report suggests that naloxone was more likely to have been added for political reasons that based on HR data.

I am in no way suggesting that anyone misuse any medication. It's important to know that formulation is a huge area of drug development and consuming in unintended ways risks side-effects that would not have been considered.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

@DeathIndustrial88 - I agree with everything you say.

I just wanted to add that many years ago I was talking to a French user who was prescribed Subutex (sublingual tablets) and who was injecting them. In their words 'you can feel a little odd for the first 10-15 minutes but then it's fine'.

It's often difficult to obtain reliable affinity data, especially now the Ki Database isn't available to the public BUT it does seem that the affinity values of buprenorphine and naloxone are quite similar. But don't forget, the mixture represents a competitive antagonist.

I have no idea what the parentheral consumption of buprenorphine is like but at least one report suggests that naloxone was more likely to have been added for political reasons that based on HR data.

I am in no way suggesting that anyone misuse any medication. It's important to know that formulation is a huge area of drug development and consuming in unintended ways risks side-effects that would not have been considered.

Yeah I bet there isn't anything spectacular about shooting Subutex like so many people claim. Buprenorphine takes awhile to bind to the receptor anyway, so it's not like it will be instantaneous anyway. And injecting it with naloxone is basically gonna feel the same way. Hell I even wonder if the short blast of naloxone from Suboxone actually sensitizes your receptors a little right before the bupe attaches, sort of like how people use low dose antagonists to stifle their tolerance a bit.

The naloxone thing was just a gimmick so that the company could push the governments & medical professionals to think their product was "safer" and "less abuseable" than Subutex, thus profit for them.

Shooting Subs is worse though but mostly because of all the cancerous & gross ingredients they put into the strips, like the flavorings & citric acid & such.

People also seek out Subutex because they think the naloxone causes precipitated withdrawals, but it's the buprenorphine itself that does that. So taking bupe in any form is gonna give you WD's if you're already on a full agonist.

Definitely a lot of misinformation & myths surrounding buprenorphine out there, definitely!

 

[nepalnt21]

i never heard about this phenomenon:

It's really pretty much impossible to experience the true euphoria of Opioids with Buprenorphine in your system

i'm guessing it has a VERY strong affinity for the receptors and therefore prevents other opes from binding to the mu, but honestly i felt as though my one time doing suboxone (orally) was every bit as euphoric as snorting heroin (moreso even) and almost as good as oral hydromorphone.

(imo nothing beats hydromorphone except opium poppy wine).

granted, i was not habitually using opioids at the time, but i just find it interesting.

is it not possible (if under an addiction) to take a bit more than the normal dose of subs and experience euphoria? not trying to make ppl wanna overdose, i'm more just curious... i concur that the best idea might be to work on healthy non- drug related habits and form a healthy daily mindset to try and avoid artificial euphoria altogether... lol and of course i say this with a gum/ lip full of 7-ho-mitragynine... i'm working on it (the anxiety from stoppage kinda sux ass)

 

[Keif' Richards]

@nepalnt21

We are discussing a couple of different scenarios here.

For a person with a history of moderate-heavy Opioid usage, Buprenorphine is much different than it might be for an individual with little to no experience with Opioids.

Buprenorphine is often cited as similar in euphoria to other Opioids like Oxycodone, provided the user is not heavily experienced. There is an excellent documentary called "Reindeer Spotting". It takes place in Northern Finland. In this specific ecosystem, Subutex (Buprenorphine w/o Naloxone) was the only Opioid available. There was a brisk illegal trade solely in Buprenorphine, Benzodiazepines and Amphetamines. Buprenorphine was the DOC for all users in the documentary and they would use these other substances peripherally.

So, there is no doubt that Buprenorphine is a powerful Opioid capable of provoking euphoria and indeed creating an entire underground sub-culture surrounding its usage.

When we talk about individuals tolerant to Buprenorphine, say, using it on a regular basis to treat addiction to other Opioids, it is generally quite illusive for these individuals to use other Opioids and be able to "enjoy" them. To use an analogy, I would describe it as trying to touch a sharp pin with numb hands; you feel something, you know it's sharp, but no matter how you adjust your fingertips, you can't quite feel it and you know you can't feel it.

 

[4DQSAR]

@Keif' Richards - Would this be the film to which you refer?



It just reminded me that the only place in the UK where buprenorphine abuse (via injection) was common was on the Outer Hebrides (and possibly Shetland Islands) of Scotland and for just the same reasons. If you look at a map, the latitude of those islands places them as far north as some Nordic nations. I initially found this out because a friend took a holiday up there and had to see a doctor. The waiting room was plastered with warnings about buprenorphine abuse.

Elsewhere in the UK it was only prevelent in prisons because at the time it didn't show up in MDTs.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Reindeerspotting is crazy!!! I'd love to watch it again, but I can never find a rip with English subtitles like I did in the past.

I can't believe they actually sit there & inject a whole 8mg pill in one sitting. And yet some how nod out & everything (well they were taking benzos too though).

But it shows what tolerance & individual body chemistry can do. I thought bupenorphine was semi-enjoyable similar to my other favorite opioids.
But once you're dependent on it, you can forget about all that. And even if you lost your dependence, it only takes a time or two of using it again before your tolerance starts going back up.

And because of the ceiling effect, taking more Suboxone really doesn't do anything. Unlike with somethiing like heroin, where you can take it every several hours & take more if you need it to get the effects back.

is it not possible (if under an addiction) to take a bit more than the normal dose of subs and experience euphoria?

Yes & no. If you're using low doses & it disappears, you could go up a little bit more & maybe get some of it back. But we're talking microgram range doses.
And because buprenorphine has a ceiling effect, after a certain dosage is built up in your body, taking more generally doesn't do anything.

Anything past 8mg for me really doesn't add much to the experience. And with it's long half-life, if you take it every day even at 2-4mg, it's eventually going to build up to that ceiling effect & taking anything higher won't bring much back. These numbers can vary.

After almost 10 years of daily bupe for me, I'd say I'd still rather be on something like heroin. It has more euphoria, more antidepressant effect, more pain relief, more feelings of "contentedness", where as bupe feels kind of hollow. I feel WAY more sedated on buprenorphine than I do on other opioids. Even with a heavy tolerance to it. And because it's so damn long acting, this sedation sticks around waay too long. I got more stimulation on things like heroin or tramadol. But oddly, in the beginning I got similar stimulation from buprenorphine, it was almost slightly comparable to the a tramadol high where you're stimulated & noddy at the same time, but not quite as pleasant, but did the trick.

But after getting use to it, that stimulated feeling is very elusive & if I do get it, it only lasts for maybe an hour. And it's such a 'natural' feeling for me, that I don't necessarily feel "euphoric" or anything when it does happen. Bupe's "high" is so in the background of your mind with how mild it can be by that point, that It can't even be called a high or anything IMO. It's just a natural burst of feeling mentally & physically stable enough to get things done & not feel like a mopey depressed person. It's too bad that that effect didn't stick for me. Even heroin & tramadol at least retained that "get up & get things done" factor for me after extended periods. But I think bupes partial agonism is also at play here, so it has less of a potential to keep giving a good effect in the long run due to many factors (long half life, partial agonist, ceiling effect, sedative metabolites, etc.. etc..).

 

[nepalnt21]

I can't believe they actually sit there & inject a whole 8mg pill in one sitting. And yet some how nod out & everything (well they were taking benzos too though).

jesus lol... that sounds so scary

I feel WAY more sedated on buprenorphine than I do on other opioids.

maybe that was it... i remember just laying on a rolled up rug (new carpeting actually, hadn't been installed yet) and feeling just so relaxed and euphoric.

hydromorphone was also super relaxing... i think with my anxiety... anything helps.

i also felt like my first real time experiencing gabapentin was as good or better... so yeah, prolly because of anxiety relief.