Kratom 7-OH-Mitragynine and Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl

[lolis my thesis]

I got ddd at 30 in a surfing whiplash accident after daily riding for 12 years and been on methadone since. All that looking up probably helped give me arthritis
Yet I was still active as can be for the next 20 years, lots of surfing and neck pain and opioids. Also tried many other therapies (12 level rhizotomies, anyone) first but by 2004 had two neck surgeries Band aid laser discectomy which led to a real AC/DF fusion at C-5/C-6

I got along ok but had a pain contract for opioid n benzo which Ive been on for 20 years now. Then had another whiplash t-bone car accident in 2017 which led me to believe I needed an artificial disc at C-6 C-7. Desperate for relief, tired of getting sideways looks at the pharmacy its like rock meet hard place. pharmacists telling me to take a QT test when my doc was already on it. Or scorn if I needed more meds or early refills, the stigma at the pharmacy or dealing with other medical professionals the scorn is often palpable.
I couldn't look up or to the right very well at all for 2 years. I definitely have all kinds of neck issues, bone spurs, spondylolisthesis, was desperate and was visiting surgeons for thought I wanted/needed more surgery. Lucky it started to resolve, so now,,,,,
I still practice skate and actually am getting stronger over the course of years. I had to give up surfing due to neck strain and arm tendon and shoulder issues.
But look forward to tomorrow even though I am thoroughly bolted together, ankles got hardware, broken wrists, torn biceps tendon, hip has arthritis, I could go on,
Im down to 12.5 mgs methadone and staying active.
At 57 its better to take less risks in sport as injury just leads to down time and, inevitably for me, additional drug use
I usually crash 4 times per year but skate daily; so I feel safer for skating than walking.

 

[Mycophile]

I got ddd at 30 in a surfing whiplash accident after daily riding for 12 years and been on methadone since. All that looking up probably helped give me arthritis
Yet I was still active as can be for the next 20 years, lots of surfing and neck pain and opioids. Also tried many other therapies (12 level rhizotomies, anyone) first but by 2004 had two neck surgeries Band aid laser discectomy which led to a real AC/DF fusion at C-5/C-6

I got along ok but had a pain contract for opioid n benzo which Ive been on for 20 years now. Then had another whiplash t-bone car accident in 2017 which led me to believe I needed an artificial disc at C-6 C-7. Desperate for relief, tired of getting sideways looks at the pharmacy its like rock meet hard place. pharmacists telling me to take a QT test when my doc was already on it. Or scorn if I needed more meds or early refills, the stigma at the pharmacy or dealing with other medical professionals the scorn is often palpable.
I couldn't look up or to the right very well at all for 2 years. I definitely have all kinds of neck issues, bone spurs, spondylolisthesis, was desperate and was visiting surgeons for thought I wanted/needed more surgery. Lucky it started to resolve, so now,,,,,
I still practice skate and actually am getting stronger over the course of years. I had to give up surfing due to neck strain and arm tendon and shoulder issues.
But look forward to tomorrow even though I am thoroughly bolted together, ankles got hardware, broken wrists, torn biceps tendon, hip has arthritis, I could go on,
Im down to 12.5 mgs methadone and staying active.
At 57 its better to take less risks in sport as injury just leads to down time and, inevitably for me, additional drug use
I usually crash 4 times per year but skate daily; so I feel safer for skating than walking.

Man, I'm really sorry to hear about your issues. The thing about DDD is that it's a HUGE spectrum, as you probably know, so some have it mild, some have it really bad and everything in between. You're older than me but for sure you've had it WAY WAY harder than me. I really really hope I never get it as badly as you've described. There's no way I'm EVER quitting BJJ. I will find ways around it. I also am pretty determined never to be on regular super strong pain meds like methadone. I know I can't 100% control that but I'll do whatever I can.

However, the kind of bullshit with you dealing with stigma at the pharmacy and doctor's office when you need more pain meds is just INFURIATING to me. You already have all this severe pain, the last fucking thing you need is people giving you shit about taking pain meds, which I'm sure you wish you didn't need. I can't stand so much of our society and its attitude towards drugs. I mean, I can't stand so many other elements of our society either. Fuck those people. Do what you have to do.

 

[lolis my thesis]

unfortunately, the norm these days is checking my dignity at the door; is what I have come to expect at any other facility besides my pain doc, who I love. But he's retiring and I have been informed by my new doc that suboxone is in my future. Thats why I im tapering, I'm afraid to change meds and maybe I can just bite the bullet and quit the methadone tapering myself. I mean the medical establishment does take decent care of me, now im on free state insurance, even dental finally after paying 500/month just for lyrica; and high deductible insurance days took me down a peg financially. I chose at the time also take methadone instead for 5 bucks/month. Then the tides changed and I have to deal with letters from the state or the DEA I don't know, saying my opiods equivalent are too high so therefore not covered. but I did get rid of a vicodin addiction of about 30mgs/day, also have gone from 60mg to 12.5 methadone. Mostly tapering from fear of a supply, not a big change in my pain. Even thoughI wanna take less opioids for personal reasons too.

I guess my pain doc overrides that stuff from state, etc. as he kinda laughs it off. He is, however, kinda a doctor "feelgood" though he tried to allow me to avoid the knife with medication. However, private payer wiped out my nest egg, surgeries judged experimental after the fact and I just had to tell the guy to stop hassling my for his 45k, no fucking way, lol. docs like him are going the way of the dinosaur it sure seems.
At least currently I am functioning, doing the sport I love, and pain aint so bad; literally got insulted by one surgeon who was supposed to take the hardware from my ankle, and one other surgery that I should white knuckle it for a non union fracture of my wrist.
Actually the most pain I felt lately was when my adult son ODed on fent; lucky for me I had narcan, administered CPR until the paramedics got here.
That was straight fucked but I am no hero for saving his live in the eyes of my ex or my family. I know my methadone treatment let to me having narcan and therefore my kid is alive so by that twisted logic it kinda saved my life in a fucked up kinda way......whew that was a mougthful

 

[Biomed Tech Guy]

the kind of bullshit with you dealing with stigma at the pharmacy and doctor's office when you need more pain meds is just INFURIATING to me. You already have all this severe pain, the last fucking thing you need is people giving you shit about taking pain meds, which I'm sure you wish you didn't need. I can't stand so much of our society and it's attitude towards drugs.

I could write a WALL OF TEXT on this subject. The sign at pharmacies that's also been posted in healthcare facilities describing felony laws against mistreatment of staff by clients and customers sometimes seems like it was especially for pharmacy staff and definitely some pharmacists to protect them from repercussions from having ZERO empathy and being complete assholes...
So called "out of stock" is from artificially limited order placement and refusal by corporate chains to offer pain management opiates, and the knife in the back is the absolute lack of any genuine concern when they make the announcement.
Many now just won't fill opiates for "new customers" so a time machine is required I guess.
I'm not going into it any deeper, it's infuriating!

 

[Biomed Tech Guy]

The ONE of 2 pharmacies I've been able to get my Rx filled with, Walgreens, has just sent a notice that my pain doctor is on their naughty list and they aren't going to honor his Rx any more.
My regular pharmacist there is awesome, always pushes filling my scripts because he knows I'm on a strict schedule and I'm out the day I go to the doctor. If his 24 hour location is out, there's one other location that has a pharmacist he trained who is considerate and helps me if possible. He said April is the cutoff, so I may be able to get 1 or 2 more months filled, but I've already tried to find another pharmacy when Walgreens is "out" with the results being infuriating, literally infuriating!
The complete lack of giving a shit is made worse by the excuses or reasons which are artificial bullshit.
Meanwhile fentanyl/fentanyl pills kill 100,000 a year but a legitimate doctor with a busy schedule and pharmacies can't or won't fill legitimate scripts.
Government fucks up everything they aren't supposed to be involved with, the things outside of the 18 enumerated powers of the Constitution, but I'll stop there so as to not get political.
I honestly don't know what I'll do once I can't get my Rx filled at Walgreens, but I hope I have a month or 2 to try because I'm going to need the time to try to figure it out.
Thank God for Kratom alkaloids or I'd be buying real Rx street drugs at $1/mg...or going into withdrawals and that just ain't right!

 

[Mycophile]

The ONE of 2 pharmacies I've been able to get my Rx filled with, Walgreens, has just sent a notice that my pain doctor is on their naughty list and they aren't going to honor his Rx any more.
My regular pharmacist there is awesome, always pushes filling my scripts because he knows I'm on a strict schedule and I'm out the day I go to the doctor. If his 24 hour location is out, there's one other location that has a pharmacist he trained who is considerate and helps me if possible. He said April is the cutoff, so I may be able to get 1 or 2 more months filled, but I've already tried to find another pharmacy when Walgreens is "out" with the results being infuriating, literally infuriating!
The complete lack of giving a shit is made worse by the excuses or reasons which are artificial bullshit.
Meanwhile fentanyl/fentanyl pills kill 100,000 a year but a legitimate doctor with a busy schedule and pharmacies can't or won't fill legitimate scripts.
Government fucks up everything they aren't supposed to be involved with, the things outside of the 18 enumerated powers of the Constitution, but I'll stop there so as to not get political.
I honestly don't know what I'll do once I can't get my Rx filled at Walgreens, but I hope I have a month or 2 to try because I'm going to need the time to try to figure it out.
Thank God for Kratom alkaloids or I'd be buying real Rx street drugs at $1/mg...or going into withdrawals and that just ain't right!

Man, I feel for you. What kind of pain meds do you get at your pharmacy? I'm just surprised that Kratom, especially the 7-OH and Pseudoindoxyl aren't sufficient cause they are so strong. They should have a sign saying that THE PHARMACISTS need to treat the customers with respect.

I just hate all drug laws to be honest. I think ALL drugs should be legal for 18 and over if you aren't driving under the influence and that's about it. The only drug I could support being illegal is Fentanyl just cause it kills so many people, but I'd say that no one should go to prison for using it, only for mixing it in people's heroin and other drugs. The FDA should make sure that no drugs are tainted with anything else. Of course it will never happen. I just really believe in bodily autonomy and that no one should ever have the right to tell anyone what they can and can't put into their bodies.

 

[Biomed Tech Guy]

What kind of pain meds do you get at your pharmacy? I'm just surprised that Kratom, especially the 7-OH and Pseudoindoxyl aren't sufficient cause they are so strong.

They ARE sufficient and very strong.
The COST is what makes Kratom alkaloids as my treatment regimen unsustainable.
120x 15mg oxy IR is $10-$20 w/insurance. Kratom alkaloids are so strong, after about 2 weeks of use, 20mg oxy IR have little effect!

 

[sludgekatana]

i recently tried 7-OH (w/o Pseudoindoxyl), as a non opioid user.
7mg was more side effect than euphoria for me. made me very nauseous and dizzy. the euphoria was pronounced for like 30 minutes, then vanished. when i try again ill make sure to prepare for the nausea. i saw a few people saying the nausea was minimal, and others saying it was significant. not sure whats going on there.
i usually maintain low or no opioid tolerance, just occasionally some O-DSMT. my O-DSMT dose is usually somewhere between 50 and 100mg rectal. if given the choice i would have just done that.
i really like kratom extracts they never make me nauseated and they are plenty strong for me. so i was expecting something like that. clearly its much stronger, also it felt more frantic, less relaxing.

 

[Biomed Tech Guy]

Today is usually, becoming "always", a real exercise in frustration, once a month.
The 1 pharmacist at a 24hr Walgreens who knows what he's doing and gives a shit about pain management patients is on vacation, they don't have ANY oxy in a size or quantity enough to fill my Rx, AND they don't have morphine sulfate ER, so ZERO Rx filling capability and I've been on this for 13 years, so obviously I can't go without anything or I'll be sick and incapacitated from withdrawals and in excruciating pain.
There's a chance I may possibly be able to get my oxy filled at ONE other Walgreens. I may be able to get the oxy at one CVS, but not for a day or two, but not the morphine.
I'm going to have to get paper Rx for both, instead of E-script, because I have to "shop around" to see who has what when and IF...
Last month I got lucky. A half dozen pharmacies were out or refused to fill a completely legal and legit Rx.
Top that off w/my online overnight UPS delivery of 7 OH Hydroxymitraginine pseudoindoxyl not coming today because of "weather delays". If I'm lucky, and it makes it to the local UPS hub today I'll go pick it up. Meanwhile I have to depend on "gas station/smoke shop opioids" that even at $5/tablet are financially unsustainable.
EDIT: Well, it looks like UPS stepped up and says my delivery is today. Update: YES! My delivery did arrive today so my stuff I ordered has made the BULLSHIT I expected to have to go through and have gone through, that is chasing my monthly legal, legit Rx at local pharmacies bearable. I called Walgreens and other than what I already posted, I found out they haven't had oxy 15mg pills in over a week. I am trying CVS where I get 3 blood pressure meds filled, which gives me leverage and them a "balance to offset" the pain meds. They have NONE in stock and I am just waiting and hoping. AGAIN, if not for being rescued by Kratom alkaloids, I'd be looking for street Rx legit meds at $1/mg and the felonies I'd be violating, that exposes me to death from fentanyl pills, because there's NO days overlapping when pain management Rx runs out.
Unless you MUST have opioids to have any semblance of living and functioning, stay away from them.
Addiction to opioids and/or kratom alkaloids (for me it MUST be one or the other, or vicious withdrawals and PAIN) is worse than anything else but heroin which is the closest thing I can imagine.
As a footnote, the DEA and politicians and their bureaucracies have and are FUCKING UP BIGLY in their alleged attempts to "do something" about opioid use and abuse, but they have the OPPOSITE effect by making legit healthcare damn near impossible to obtain!!

 

[krkkhed]

I recently got my hands on a gram of 7OH powder. I'm an experienced opioid user with a currently high opioid tolerance (I've relapsed on Hydromorphone and Morphine, IV morphine, sometimes IV hydro but mostly snorting). I tried it yesterday at 30mg sublingual, it felt like a small buzz but then I took a soma and did a shot of morphine and snorted two hydros so I kind of muddled the experience.
Just 10 minutes ago I took 45mg. I am wondering how long it takes to kick in for other people? I feel like it takes 20-30 min but last time I felt something within 15 when I took it sublingually. Today it was oral. I am also on 500mg Carisoprodol as I read earlier in this thread it potentiates 7OH a great deal. Looking forward to that.
If anyone could share how long it takes to kick in and how long it lasts? I've found some stuff on how long it lasts but the onset time is sort of mixed online. Can't find alot of good information about 7OH

 

[Quasimoto]

I recently got my hands on a gram of 7OH powder. I'm an experienced opioid user with a currently high opioid tolerance (I've relapsed on Hydromorphone and Morphine, IV morphine, sometimes IV hydro but mostly snorting). I tried it yesterday at 30mg sublingual, it felt like a small buzz but then I took a soma and did a shot of morphine and snorted two hydros so I kind of muddled the experience.
Just 10 minutes ago I took 45mg. I am wondering how long it takes to kick in for other people? I feel like it takes 20-30 min but last time I felt something within 15 when I took it sublingually. Today it was oral. I am also on 500mg Carisoprodol as I read earlier in this thread it potentiates 7OH a great deal. Looking forward to that.
If anyone could share how long it takes to kick in and how long it lasts? I've found some stuff on how long it lasts but the onset time is sort of mixed online. Can't find alot of good information about 7OH

Base, real 7-OH can take a surprisingly long time to peak for me, sometimes 90-120 minutes, because it doesn't absorb very efficiently.

The salt forms and analogs (which is most of what you'll find these days) hit faster, like a typical pill, 45-60 min.

For whatever reason sublingual never worked very well for me in any form. No faster than oral. I just swallow my doses now.

 

[krkkhed]

Base, real 7-OH can take a surprisingly long time to peak for me, sometimes 90-120 minutes, because it doesn't absorb very efficiently.

The salt forms and analogs (which is most of what you'll find these days) hit faster, like a typical pill, 45-60 min.

For whatever reason sublingual never worked very well for me in any form. No faster than oral. I just swallow my doses now.

Since that post I've taken it twice, I found sublingual did make it hit faster. It felt equivalent to hydrocodone and was a nice sorta more energizing buzz slightly like oxy. Although I didn't get any nods or crazy euphoria or alot of warmth (I did get some), it helped alot to keep me from taking other opioids like hydro and morphine which is nice for me cuz I can spread my stash of D8s, XR hydromorphs and Kadians out a little longer.
Sublingual hit like 20 or 25 minutes in, and the peak took about 1 hour to develop. Oral took slightly longer, 30-40 to hit and 90ish min to peak (like you said)
I also feel like 7OH might be semi useful for withdrawls or maybe a taper although I've heard of it developing a crazy tolerance very fast. But I was thinking maybe when I'm off my morphine and hydromorphone binge I'll use the 7OH every two days alongside Carisoprodol and Loperamide and be able to taper off relatively painlessly. I dont know though we'll see I can update when I try it

 

[Biomed Tech Guy]

sublingual did make it hit faster

Absolutely no doubt. I often hold the tablets under my tongue until they're gone. Also I was told there's about a 22% loss of efficacy in the digestive system vs sublingual.

it helped alot to keep me from taking other opioids like hydro and morphine

I have gone from a 2 to 3 day 20x 15mg oxy IR per day binge to nothing but 7OH and pseudoindoxyl and had no withdrawals and similar effective pain management.
Tolerance for 7OH and pseudo builds rapidly for me. The first time I took 2x 30mg 7OH tabs I was very energized. Yesterday I took 4 within 2 hours which was a little more than necessary but ok.
By the time my mg digital scale arrived 2 weeks after I got my first high potency powdered 7OH+Pseudo I had gone from 2 level big end scoops (at ~25mg each scoop) to 2x a pile on the big scoop end. When I got close to out on my 2nd and 3rd powder container I just tipped it in.
All under the tongue in the above dosings, and held there as long as possible, sometimes a couple of minutes.
My first tip out of the last of my 2nd powder container was very energizing, but not like too much caffeine or speed, it was just nice.

 

[krkkhed]

Absolutely no doubt. I often hold the tablets under my tongue until they're gone. Also I was told there's about a 22% loss of efficacy in the digestive system vs sublingual.

I have gone from a 2 to 3 day 20x 15mg oxy IR per day binge to nothing but 7OH and pseudoindoxyl and had no withdrawals and similar effective pain management.
Tolerance for 7OH and pseudo builds rapidly for me. The first time I took 2x 30mg 7OH tabs I was very energized. Yesterday I took 4 within 2 hours which was a little more than necessary but ok.
By the time my mg digital scale arrived 2 weeks after I got my first high potency powdered 7OH+Pseudo I had gone from 2 level big end scoops (at ~25mg each scoop) to 2x a pile on the big scoop end. When I got close to out on my 2nd and 3rd powder container I just tipped it in.
All under the tongue in the above dosings, and held there as long as possible, sometimes a couple of minutes.
My first tip out of the last of my 2nd powder container was very energizing, but not like too much caffeine or speed, it was just nice.

Thanks for telling me about your experience using 7oh to get off oxys or stave off withdrawls. will be trying myself, lets see how it works for like 30mg a day hydromorphone habit (IV and insufflated) thats lasted for 2-3 weeks lol

 

[red22]

sublingual did make it hit faster

Absolutely no doubt. I often hold the tablets under my tongue until they're gone. Also I was told there's about a 22% loss of efficacy in the digestive system vs sublingual.

Oral bioavailability of mitragynine in humans was reported as 3–17%, (10) and 30%. (26)

Effects of Itraconazole on Pharmacokinetics of Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine in Healthy Volunteers. Mongar P, Jaisi A, Inkviya T, Wungsintaweekul J, Wiwattanawongsa K. 2024. ACS Pharmacology & Translational Science 7 (3), 823-833. DOI: 10.1021/acsptsci.3c00335 Effect of Itraconazole on Mitragynine and 7OH Pharmacokinetic

 

[Esperighanto]

Oral bioavailability of mitragynine in humans was reported as 3–17%, (10) and 30%. (26)

Effects of Itraconazole on Pharmacokinetics of Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine in Healthy Volunteers. Mongar P, Jaisi A, Inkviya T, Wungsintaweekul J, Wiwattanawongsa K. 2024. ACS Pharmacology & Translational Science 7 (3), 823-833. DOI: 10.1021/acsptsci.3c00335 Effect of Itraconazole on Mitragynine and 7OH Pharmacokinetic

I wonder if this relates to why intranasal administration of 7-OH hitting harder, faster, and in a more stimulating manner. Has anyone ever successfully vaporized it?

 

[red22]

Has anyone ever successfully vaporized it?

I have a concentrate vape that I used for leaf and it worked ok I guess, but tasted really nasty. Always vaped kratom oil, in either cartridges or nicotine vapes and that was really good. Very mild taste and nice effects. The oil in the concentrate vape was always super strong.

We used to make 2 different types of kratom oil, one that was water soluble and could be vaped, and one that we used in making all kinds of snacks. Brownies, peanut butter cups, pizza, kratom infused sauces, gummies etc. No plant matter and it tasted way better than powder.

in-fusd, 2023-08-21, re: Kratom Vapes


vaping extracts, even at a low temperature and high purity, is pretty foul and not worth it imo

daddyfatknuckles, 2024-03-18, reddit

 

[krkkhed]

Alright. I am going to write here about my experience using 7OH to deal with Hydromorphone withdrawls. As I wrote previously I've been using Hydromorphone, both insufflated and IV for about 3 weeks now. I was also injecting Morphine for every so often the first week and a half. On average I shoot about 25-35mg and snort also about 25-35mg per day, at the beginning it was about 16-20mg IV and 20-25 snorted, and when I had Morphine I'd shoot about 50-60mg at a time.
Yesterday I ran out of all opioids (except the 7OH of course). Upon waking up it was like every other morning, stomach hurt, sweating, yawning constantly and eyes and nose running non stop. I took 65mg of 7OH sublingually, went to the bathroom (I always do this before I take my shot or snort my morning lines, that way I can avoid being in a situation where I haven't pooped in 2 weeks), grabbed some cereal from downstairs and sat down at my desk, and I was already feeling it (bout 10-12 min)
Those who are skeptical about sublingual hitting better....idk what to say. Maybe its cuz I'm using pure powder, but it hits NOTICEABLY faster, and harder. Once it hit, the withdrawl symptoms went away. I actually even felt warm, and in my opinion the warmth was on par with that of Oxycodone. I felt my eyes droop a bit and when I checked my pupils they were quite constricted. Around 5 hours after that I started feeling the withdrawls creeping in and redosed just 35mg. It helped but there was a lack of recreational side effects for the most part aside from my face feeling a bit warmer and I was pretty relaxed.
This morning, I dosed 50mg and though it did get rid of the withdrawl symptoms again, like the second dose from the day before, there was an unfortunate lack or diminished strength in/noticeability of recreational effects. This time barely any warmth and only really some pupil constriction and sedation. A slight buzz after smoking weed similar to Codeine. I am sure if I had dosed more it would have hit like the day before, but I didn't want it to lose it's effect as I will have to use it again in a week or so when I run out and unfortunately am in a position that requires me to quit or atleast take a break. I am hoping I can figure a schedule out that keeps tolerance from increasing exponentially like how others have described it.
I was able to get some more Dilaudid and Hydromorphone Contins this afternoon, so I don't have to worry for a bit.
If I succeed in figuring out a schedule for dosing that stops or slows the intense spike in tolerance, I will update here.
Maybe it could be good to have a seperate thread about using 7OH for opioid withdrawls? Or maybe there already is one and I just haven't looked yet.

 

[red22]

Speciociliatine is also a fine prospect.

Metabolism of Speciociliatine, an Overlooked Kratom Alkaloid for its Potential Pharmacological Effects. Kamble, S. H., Berthold, E. C., Kanumuri, S. R. R., King, T. I., Kuntz, M. A., León, F., Mottinelli, M., McMahon, L. R., McCurdy, C. R., & Sharma, A. (2022). The AAPS journal, 24(5), 86. doi: 10.1208/s12248-022-00736-8

i got a lot better effects from the high 7oh extracts from █████████▊ and its about 1/7 the price per dose. but again, 7OH is just sedating, which it doesnt sound like OP wants. of everything i’ve tried, their high speciociliatine extract has had the most euphoric effects

daddyfatknuckles, 2024-03-08, re: 7OHM-Z


i think the most pleasurable kratom experience i’ve had was mixing high Speciociliatine extract (30%MIT/15%SP) with high 7OH extract (25%MIT/1.5%7OH) - these powder extracts are relatively cheap, for extracts

daddyfatknuckles, 2024-02-15, reddit

 

[pnillyg]

How frequently could one take 7oh without raising tolorence and how much? I usually dose 2-3 g of kratom 2-3x daily about 5 days a week. Recently started adding a mg or 3 of 7-oh 1-2x weekly. Just curious