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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Immigration discussion

I think that it's often about a blurry mixture of race and class warfare. There are wealthy elites that seek to use whatever the topic du jure is to keep everyday people at odds. When George Floyd happens, it's about race - and when tech layoffs are happening - it's about class. It's all irrelevant, it's about power, control, and a lack of vision that is able to be sold to any specific monoculture. Instead of all of us tuning into Walter Cronkite each night and getting the nightly account of the day's events, we're tuning into a chimera of culture that spans old media, new media, audio podcasts, longform articles, troll tweets on X, memes, and increasingly AI fueled newsmania. I've noticed the number of clearly fake posts being shared in forums that I frequent (ones that until recently were fairly non-political). It's everywear and it's increasing. The intersection of tech and political will has never been more closely enmeshed and deregulated.

Crypto was easier for me to buy this week via my regular bank account than it ever has been before - subtle changes to the paypal algorithm have allowed me to spend much more per day on debit purchases than my bank account would allow even a month ago. Coincidence?

All of this stuff is designed to further destabilize the working/middle class, trimming the fat and then spinning it into class warfare, or woke/anti-woke, or whatever mimetic narrative trends on social media.

That's the real mind virus.
It is terrible what has happened to California. Last century there was a normal middle class and also working class people could survive.
They even talked about the middle class. Not anymore. No building of any affordable homes. In the name of land preservation.

The California wildfires were so bad because logging was around 25 million board feet per year and new trees planted and now 1million or so.

The loggers made roads and actually created fire breaks so that fires if they broke out would be contained. The environmentalists who went against the warnings to have fire break lines and to keep the logging industry ; so that the logging roads would work as fire breaks. The logging road stopped being used and growth started and flourished.

Also the environmentalist would not allow clearing brush or thinning the trees. California has very little rain especially in the Southern part and you have too many trees fighting for limited water. Which means unhealthy dehydrated trees that are crowded. Throw in the absence of fire breaks; and you have a tinder box.

Having a good eco policy is great, but these people are foolish and cause more harm. The American Indians also knew about this long ago.

Also California is huge and taking let's say across the state 1000 square miles of land for affordable houses, apartments, medium rise and medium and highish rise condos. I will get too roads, schools, and businesses ect in a bit. That would be 640,000 acres and 5 to 10 homes per acre and average 3 people per home. Add 500 square miles of schools hospitals and businesses,... ect. The apartments would be medium rise life safe( earthquake resistant to current State standards) and small lot single family 2-3 story homes and town homes on small lots. Also high rise nicer condos. Over 11 million - close to 20 million people.
Even if that number was cut by 2/3 ot half. 5-10 million people on less than 1% of the land in California and there is plenty of land and there. There could be real middle class and working class again. But no the California legislature and eco warriors are harming the environment and driving all but the wealthy and the poor who suckle at the tetes of welfare and are stuck.

Stop the radical destructive land policies. The fire fighters were spending a lot of time clearing brush and making fire breaks. Which use to be done and less loss of trees and culling for the water starved trees.
To many sick and dehydrated trees make for perfect kindling.

But the policies seem to be geared only to the rich in California and ironically the poor. No middle class will be a reality there. Forget working class. They are now homeless( many are or have left)

There is this national policy of not building when there is plenty of land. The left wants immigrants. OK, we're are they supposed to live?
What about population increase?
We are on a trend and I not talking about California now( all of America) of stopping the building of homes and a growing population.
My lousy home in Michigan is now worth something. Because no homes. Are we headed towards being Canada? Lots of land but not enough homes? Homes too expensive?

What about the younger people? Are they supposed to get married and have kids and live in a 5th wheel trailer in a homeless camp or with a parent or parents till their parents die?

This is the beginning of real trouble for America if the housing( affordable and country wide is not addressed) shortage continues. This country will be a nightmare for anyone who doesn't already have a house. Apartments will be scarce, expensive and crowded. Working class homeless people.( people with full time jobs who can't afford an apartment; let alone a house).

Don't blame the right. Where are all the illegals supposed to live. Oh yeah what about our citizens who are middle class and below. This is a horrible trend and it needs to corrected. Build and Build more and more infrastructure work and energy and transportation infrastructure to accommodate a growing population. Or will the left fight it. So only the wealthy can have a home? Radical environmentalists are ruining our country and causing suffering. But it is just the beginning.

The left did this to California and it will only get worse. This is what they asked for. Yes the ridiculous land and forest management laws.
They asked for this. Not much rain, too many trees per square acre all dehydrated and too many fighting for water and no brush clearing or fire breaks.

This is what they want and they are going to keep getting it until California is a waste land of rippies( rich out of touch know it all but foolish, out of touch elitist fools who bring poverty and destruction and it is spreading).
 
You already have no power. You have no money bro. It was white American (european, whatever, Western) citizens, mostly, that did that to us. It's really not so different between America and Europe. The West, and probably the rest of the world, is careening once again towards economic collapse amongst impending trade wars. This is manufactured, but not by muslims, not by Mexican immigrants.

Of course it's about race. You have a fear that someone of a different race wants to dominate you and take your shit. This fear has been instilled and cultivated in you since childhood, for a reason.
I sorry did you somehow get the impression That I am poor like you?
Dude you really have no clue about me. I am modest in my life style but poor, ha ha keep thinking that.
 
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From today's front page article in The Atlantic: (here's a gift link: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...opy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)



Just one of many ways of thinking of this wider problem of how artificial shortages (we are a country with enormous wealth and abundance) are used to control political will, to pit @Jnowhere against me so we will vote against one another instead of against those who hold property, power, and wealth.
I don't care about any off that. I can do nothing. I was actually thinking about relocating to the Caribbean but I am not feeling well. Buy a small condo and a second one for addional income and continue to relax.🤣🤣 like I care. Like I am worried.
 
or maybe some kind of small blocs - I live in New England so I could see us and New York/PA being a bloc. then maybe a mid-atlantic bloc, a south east/midwest/southwest/west/PNW... I don't know how you'd draw the lines, but essentially some arrangement of like minded states that have similar customs/regulations/laws while others affiliate differently.

Again, I'm not a top down thinker - I think about systems from a high level/thematic perspective (or from a very individual perspective - it's why I studied clinical social work and public health policy in separate master's programs). I'd defer to my wise peers to thinking about how best to organize the state should it ever come to a place where I were somehow involved in drawing this stuff up lol
You ain't getting Pennsylvania, I have a lot of love and history their and New England and PA. are not compatible. They are more like mid westerners. I lived Outside of Pittsburgh, Philly, Central Pa and the Northern central and have ties to an other area. New England and the East Coast is vastly Different from PA. THEY ARE NOT COMPATIBLE.
TAKE UPSTATE NEW YORK AND JERSEY DC AND MARYLAND AND DELAWARE.
 
You ain't getting Pennsylvania, I have a lot of love and history their and New England and PA. are not compatible. They are more like mid westerners. I lived Outside of Pittsburgh, Philly, Central Pa and the Northern central and have ties to an other area. New England and the East Coast is vastly Different from PA. THEY ARE NOT COMPATIBLE.
TAKE UPSTATE NEW YORK AND JERSEY DC AND MARYLAND AND DELAWARE.
There's that old adage - between the western suburbs of philly and the eastern suburbs of Pittsburgh lays alabama?

I don't need to get anywhere - I don't think about this stuff as part of a larger competition. Mostly just how things might ultimately fall if things were to move away from a federal system. New England or North East, maybe with some common customs with parts of Minnesota/Michigan and Illinois as well as with the Mid-Atlantic. I'd see Ohio/PA/Kentucky/Iowa being more affiliated - FL, MI, MS, LA being affiliated...UT,NV,AZ, TX...NM might go one way or another I honestly don't know.

It's fun to think about but what it would take for these things to happen would probably not be great for most people.
 
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I don't care about any off that. I can do nothing. I was actually thinking about relocating to the Caribbean but I am not feeling well. Buy a small condo and a second one for addional income and continue to relax.🤣🤣 like I care. Like I am worried.
If I relocated it would be to Portugal - 6 hours by plane from my family, good food and good music. English is enough to get by for the most part, though I'd be sad to leave home/family/my roots.
 
I think it's funny people still say a planned economy or a proper social welfare state wouldn't work in a big country like the US.

Meanwhile, China dominates the world in global trade and most metrics of success. Shit, even Canada has better healthcare outcomes than the states.
No they don't; don't lie. China has big issues and so does Canada. Canadian Healthcare.haha You only know poverty and government hand outs. I know poverty and I know of being comfortable. I Thank ALMIGHTY GOD, I may be alone in the house I own and well it certainly does seem like I have a lot of free time. I need some responsibilities or not.🙂 China has no socialized medicine. It is more capitalistic than America. But has an authoritarian regime that suppresses freedom. No welfare, not really any government assistance. Haha you haven't a clue.
 
No they don't; don't lie. China has big issues and so does Canada. Canadian Healthcare.haha You only know poverty and government hand outs. I know poverty and I know of being comfortable. I Thank ALMIGHTY GOD, I may be alone in the house I own and well it certainly does seem like I have a lot of free time. I need some responsibilities or not.🙂 China has no socialized medicine. It is more capitalistic than America. But has an authoritarian regime that suppresses freedom. No welfare, not really any government assistance. Haha you haven't a clue.
The US has an authoritarian regime the suppresses class mobility in exchange for a perception of freedom.

Having too much time on your hands and being alone is probably a big part of why you fear immigrants and wokeness - they're unfamiliar to you. I'm around people all of the time from a variety of different countries and I appreciate what they contribute to my community (food, music, religion, perspectives). When I head an hour outside the city, it starts to feel really disconnected, isolating, and lonely. Sure, I'd love to own my own property, but I grew up in a place without much culture. Yards/cars/driveways and eventually, opioid addiction and crime in a town with a top rated school system.
 
They're also a collectivist culture whereas Americans are individualists.
Yeah, there are definitely some cultural differences. But, I don't think collective principles are totally out of bounds for Americans. While I doubt this metric could ever be completely verified, I've seen several polls that indicate that the average American falls basically into the left libertarian quadrant of the political compass.

I mean, we've just never been allowed to reap the benefits from very many social minded policies. But the benefits we do have, are incredibly popular. Not only have we been inundated with pro-capitalist propaganda + red scares for a hundred+ years, but the government and political establishment have gone to great lengths to silence any movements that are even vaguely socialist. I mean, look at the 2016 presidential election, one of the most progressive candidates we've ever seen was on his way to win, and the "left-wing" party took steps to manipulate the primary and get a more business friendly, war-hawk candidate in there, who then lost to the most unpopular presidential candidate ever.

While the nuclear family is a very important thing in America, I wouldn't underestimate how radical or progressive the population is.

Well, technically it wouldn't in the current arrangement. The American system is an ecosystem of sorts, and it's raison d'etre is to function as a war factory. The entire system is now arranged and organised around that principle, right down to the local level. It's difficult to see it, but it's there. It touches local communities in a way that is not easily perceptible.

That's not to say it couldn't be done. It could. But the USA, like the UK and most of Europe, has organised itself around certain tenets that are pointing in the opposite direction. I mean literally too. Look at the way we organise ourselves physically, with people forming a nexus in cities and the financial stuff right at the core.

Paper tiger. China is going to implode. You can't rule over people with an iron fist forever, nor can you rush development like it has and not run into systemic problems. It's growth wouldn't have even happened if it weren't for Western industrialists deliberately sending over all their toxic industry, which has utterly ruined the quality of life for ordinary Chinese people who once lived quite humble lives as farmers.

If that totalitarian dumpster fire is a measure for success, then my lord what the hell are we doing.
Yeah, I mean, my point was primarily based on the amount of economic power and influence China currently has, and the growth they saw very rapidly after their communist revolution. I don't think there's any question that growth is attributed to the change in economic system. I don't think you can just boil all of that down to industrialists sending exports and factories over there. There's more to it than that.

I mean, look at the ratio of homeless people in China vs the USA. We can't even get our elderly and disabled people into housing or get them medical care. Basic shit, that other countries do better. Infant mortality. Look at the suicide rate. The suicide rate in the states is nearly DOUBLE the suicide rate in China. Look how many people are imprisoned in the states. All of that stuff speaks volumes tbh, beyond simple gdp numbers and shit like that.

I've never been to China, so I can't really comment on how the quality of life is over there, or how happy people are, beyond the above numbers. Most of what people in the West hear about China is propaganda and narrative crafting. We always need a Boogeyman, and the companies that run our government, politicians, and media, all have a vested interest in painting China in a negative light.

That said, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the things they do in foreign policy and otherwise. It's just never that simple though.

I don't accept the status quo. Just because something is or has always been a certain way, doesn't mean it should be. Our government is every bit as corrupt, authoritarian, and brutal as any other third world country with a shitty and violent government. Shit needs to change, and it's not going to unless we do different shit, on both a personal and collective level.

Their birth rate is much lower and they have serious social issues. They also don’t give a damn about the environment.
Yeah, the birth rate is higher in the states, but I don't think that really matters in regards to having a government that's less blatantly exploitive, or growing a more egalitarian economy. The US has an insane amount of social issues, too. I mean, as posted above ^^ huge rates of homelessness, incarceration, mental illness and drug addiction, disease, widespread public violence, a long and colorful history of racism and barbarism against immigrants and other minorities. I mean the list goes on all day. We have the resources to resolve or at least improve all of these issues, but we don't, because it's not good for business and it's not profitable. That's the crux of the problem.

But despite all of these massive issues and social problems, lots of folks in the states are more concerned about what country their neighbor came from, what their faith is, or what their sexual identity is. That is by design and it's built through generations of nationalist propaganda. I mean it can't really be understated how delusional and out of touch that is. I think it's a mistake to not recognize the above issues as a product of an authoritarian government and economy.

And yeah, the USA pollutes an incredible amount, I don't think that's honestly comparable.
 
The US has an authoritarian regime the suppresses class mobility in exchange for a perception of freedom.

Having too much time on your hands and being alone is probably a big part of why you fear immigrants and wokeness - they're unfamiliar to you. I'm around people all of the time from a variety of different countries and I appreciate what they contribute to my community (food, music, religion, perspectives). When I head an hour outside the city, it starts to feel really disconnected, isolating, and lonely. Sure, I'd love to own my own property, but I grew up in a place without much culture. Yards/cars/driveways and eventually, opioid addiction and crime in a town with a top rated school system.
Why do you assume that he fears immigrants or wokeness? Maybe he just prefers to be around his own people, people who share his values?

Do you fear white people and conservatism? Or do you just not find them fulfilling personally?
 
If I relocated it would be to Portugal - 6 hours by plane from my family, good food and good music. English is enough to get by for the most part, though I'd be sad to leave home/family/my roots.
I have considered Panama and Argentina. My Spanish needs a lot of work. I was thinking of a business but I don't speak the language well enough to do the paperwork and my health is an issue. I would need to sell my house( which would be easy I had offers for it and personal defense devices and they are legal and you can get permits but moving them is a bitch. I have a whole house full of furniture and all sorts of stuff. But if I could carry two or three and you can with a permit but getting it would be tough because I would need it and then bring them down.

If I were younger it would be easier and actually be fun selling my home and moving to a foreign land. Not sure about vehicles. Sell my car and get a used jeep and a used but decent on/off road motorcycle and what to invest in? Wanna be low key and armed always in a place in Central or South America.
 
Why do you assume that he fears immigrants or wokeness? Maybe he just prefers to be around his own people, people who share his values?
I guess I base it on the types of statements I've seen him make on here - and it's true, it's an assumption. I don't know what he fears or simply prefers. Where he falls on that spectrum and I recognize that as a way that I can be biased (I think we all can and I am writing this because I hope it inspires others to be open to calling out their own biases)
Do you fear white people and conservatism? Or do you just not find them fulfilling personally?
I fear some for sure. Mostly I feel bad for them because many seem really sad and angry. I feel more frustrated with progressives who have become dismissive of those with different opinions. I tend to enjoy talking with conservatives in person for a few reasons - 1) we tend to actually get along pretty well even if we don't ultimately agree on solutions 2) I like the look of suprise with a city dwelling social worker actually agrees with them and validates their frustration instead of playing into the typical woke stereotype they've often created of who I must be 3) I like to learn from people whose views are different than mine. It keeps me from being too stagnant.

What I fear more than anything is hatred and zealotry. I stay away from true believers, and there are many in the conservative world as there's a close connection with evangelical christianity. I also stay away from activist liberals for the very same reason. Anyone who thinks that there's one right way to live is suspect in my mind.
 
I have considered Panama and Argentina. My Spanish needs a lot of work. I was thinking of a business but I don't speak the language well enough to do the paperwork and my health is an issue. I would need to sell my house( which would be easy I had offers for it and personal defense devices and they are legal and you can get permits but moving them is a bitch. I have a whole house full of furniture and all sorts of stuff. But if I could carry two or three and you can with a permit but getting it would be tough because I would need it and then bring them down.

If I were younger it would be easier and actually be fun selling my home and moving to a foreign land. Not sure about vehicles. Sell my car and get a used jeep and a used but decent on/off road motorcycle and what to invest in? Wanna be low key and armed always in a place in Central or South America.
How old are you? (roughly - dont' mean to pry, just curious)
 
I mean, look at the ratio of homeless people in China vs the USA. We can't even get our elderly and disabled people into housing or get them medical care. Basic shit, that other countries do better. Infant mortality. Look at the suicide rate. The suicide rate in the states is nearly DOUBLE the suicide rate in China. Look how many people are imprisoned in the states. All of that stuff speaks volumes tbh, beyond simple gdp numbers and shit like that.

I've never been to China, so I can't really comment on how the quality of life is over there, or how happy people are, beyond the above numbers.

I HAVE been to China and they have far more poor and homeless people in far worse conditions. It’s considered a developing country for a reason. I don’t think we have accurate data on China’s suicide or incarceration rates, but I would not be surprised if the US is doing worse in that regard. But probably not by very much. All the West is suffering from a severe lack of identity and meaning, unlike China which still has a collective identity. The Chinese are also much more conformist and thus less likely to use/abuse drugs. China also has much lower crime because it is a racially homogenous state.

Yeah, the birth rate is higher in the states, but I don't think that really matters in regards to having a government that's less blatantly exploitive, or growing a more egalitarian economy. The US has an insane amount of social issues, too. I mean, as posted above ^^ huge rates of homelessness, incarceration, mental illness and drug addiction, disease, widespread public violence, a long and colorful history of racism and barbarism against immigrants and other minorities. I mean the list goes on all day. We have the resources to resolve or at least improve all of these issues, but we don't, because it's not good for business and it's not profitable. That's the crux of the problem.

But despite all of these massive issues and social problems, lots of folks in the states are more concerned about what country their neighbor came from, what their faith is, or what their sexual identity is. That is by design and it's built through generations of nationalist propaganda. I mean it can't really be understated how delusional and out of touch that is. I think it's a mistake to not recognize the above issues as a product of an authoritarian government and economy.

And yeah, the USA pollutes an incredible amount, I don't think that's honestly comparable.

China is far more authoritarian and exploitative, though. China has a much longer history of ‘racism and barbarism against immigrants and other minorities’ - that’s why they eradicated virtually all of them and are 92% Han Chinese.

The US does NOT have the resources to improve all these issues whilst trying to save the entire world at the same time, especially considering the extreme debt.

People all over the world care even MORE about their identity than those in the US because white people are have the least in-group preference of all races.

China pollutes VASTLY more.
 
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You know this is exactly how most conservatives feel about progressive right?
It's why I try to remind my conservative friends that we're not too different, you and I.

It's why I like talking with @Electrum1 and @Jnowhere and others who have conservative views. In th end, I'm more social and I think the state should focus on building up social capital..I realize that my way wouldn't work for Jnowhere who lives outside of the city. What good is that going to do him?
 
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