US Politics the 2025 trump presidency thread

[Foreigner]

that's fair enough. but why do you then ask others to provide you with evidence? why should they waste their time?

It's up to them if they want to or not.

you've given me no reason to believe they exist therefore i do not believe they exist.

Ok.

I mean, it's not like it would've mattered anyway. People who think the Trump admin is right-wing, neo-nazi fascism are not going to change their minds.

sure it is (if you wish a claim to be taken seriously).

alasdair

This isn't a serious place for quality political discussions.

 

[Foreigner]

Then why didn't you simply employ Hitchen's Razor and make it clear that you were doing so?

So your position is 'because someone else acted irrationally, it's rational for me to adopt their behaviors?'

Because that doesn't make an ounce of sense. Do you seek discussion or merely to be the loudest voice?

You're creating a strawman there about where I'm coming from. I couldn't care less about your incorrect assumptions of me.

 

[Foreigner]

Misrepresentation of facts in order to put specific policies in place is still misrepresentation

Which facts are being misrepresented?

It is rather interesting how people like to tell others to do the research when they don't have anything to back up their statements

I am well informed. I'm not going to spend 30-45 minutes digging up a list of sources just for somebody to hand wave it away, like they always do. I'm on science forms and political science forums where real citations are used. This is not the place for that.

Are you telling me you'd actually be open to changing your mind if shown evidence? Because I seriously doubt that.,

Rabid leftists who think the Trump admin is a far-right, neo-nazi, fascist, Third Reich 2.0 regime are already not living in reality, so it's not like evidence will sway them.

 

[Foreigner]

Actually I do; I've worked in government.

As what?

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Which facts are being misrepresented?



I am well informed. I'm not going to spend 30-45 minutes digging up a list of sources just for somebody to hand wave it away, like they always do. I'm on science forms and political science forums where real citations are used. This is not the place for that.

Are you telling me you'd actually be open to changing your mind if shown evidence? Because I seriously doubt that.,

Rabid leftists who think the Trump admin is a far-right, neo-nazi, fascist, Third Reich 2.0 regime are already not living in reality, so it's not like evidence will sway them.

Like you waived away all of the sources provided to you in this and other threads? At least some of us actually try to substantiate our claims. Apparently you don't even know how to try

 

[Foreigner]

Like you waived away all of the sources provided to you in this and other threads? At least some of us actually try to substantiate our claims. Apparently you don't even know how to try

You're just trolling me now. Are you logged into BL 24/7? Every time I reply, you respond in like 5 mins.

I know how to vet and cite sources on a professional level. The question is whether it's worth my time. Currently the answer is no.

Besides I already responded to your sources about the ADf. I didn't "wave them away," I pointed out you were unfortunately rebutting arguments I didn't make. I was being honest when I said that. You have fallen for the same logical fallacy of composition of so many others, that because the ADf contains far-right elements, that the whole thing is neo-nazi, and by extension anyone giving a speech to them is a neo-nazi supporter. That's like saying if there is one racist in a crowd, then the whole organization is racist, and anyone giving a speech to them supports racism. The fact is, the ADf stands a very good chance of winning power in Germany, for the same reasons why Trump and other right-wing majorities are starting to appear in the western world. People are sick of bellicose radical left socioeconomic policy and their globalist cronies. People always vote right when they want to protect national sovereignty. Naturally Elon is going to give a speech to a likely candidate for future rule of Germany because he has a large market share there.

You're not going to be able to prove that Elon did a sig heil. It's a matter of opinion. Based on his own testimony, the testimony of those around him, and comparable gestures done by other American politicians in the past, I don't believe he did a sig heil. Furthermore, if the Trump admin is fascist, they are sure behaving contrary to all previous fascists by shrinking the bureaucracy. Tyrannical governments always expand the bureaucracy because they need more control. Trump et al are making it smaller, so far. Thus far is there is not one single policy coming out of the Trump admin that could be called fascist or far-right. Right-wing absolutely, but not far-right.

The left has lost its mind and will grasp at anything to discredit this admin. So far, almost everything they're doing is music to my ears. I hope the same style of fiscal conservativism comes to Canada next. We can only pray. I used to be a card carrying liberal and the current incarnation of liberalism that has taken control of governments is nothing that I recognize. We now also know through the USAID audit that they have likely been laundering tax payer money in the hundreds of billions of dollars for decades now. It's insane. They have been using our own money to enrich themselves and divide us. We should all be against statism. It's bipartisan.

But all people like you want to talk about is sig heils and other bullshit. What will it take for you people to wake up and smell the psychosis?

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I guess they aren't neonazis as long as they aren't literally yelling "I love Hitler"?

You realize that the point of Nazism is the policy right? Not just loving Hitler?

What would it take for you to admit a given political party is centered around neonazi ideology?

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Also it has already been shown that the nonsense flow charts created by those children that Elon hired are blatant misrepresentations what what money is for and where it came from

 

[Foreigner]

I guess they aren't neonazis as long as they aren't literally yelling "I love Hitler"?

No, really? You don't say.

You realize that the point of Nazism is the policy right? Not just loving Hitler?

Right-wing policy has to pass a very specific litmus test to be called Nazism, so far I'm not seeing it. I would be the first to admit it, if it were happening. Accusations alone are not enough.

This is all part and parcel with the left-wing delusion of the dogwhistle. They see boogeymen everywhere.

What would it take for you to admit a given political party is centered around neonazi ideology?

I don't think it would be ethical to share with you what the litmus test is because you will use it for selective-bias purposes. I'm not going to fuel this delusion further.

When George W. Bush launched the war on terror, expanded his Presidential power via Congress, and engaged in bellicose nationalism, the left made extremely convincing arguments that he was following a Nazi playbook. I should know, I was part of anti-Bush protests at that time. Meanwhile he just turned out to be a blithering idiot and as usual the left was whipping itself up into a frenzy because they didn't understand policy.

That would be an excellent case study for you to study re: false accusations of Nazism.

Also it has already been shown that the nonsense flow charts created by those children that Elon hired are blatant misrepresentations what what money is for and where it came from

Oh yes, "it has been shown."

Have you visited any government websites and looked at actual ledgers, instead of just judging pretty graphic layouts? Because I have.

USAID is corrupted to the core and has exposed a bipartisan problem spanning 30 years if not more. They have been robbing us blind and turning our own media against us. This includes former GOP admins too btw. If you weren't so myopic you'd realize that.

I want all this shit audited, I don't care which "side" is in charge of it.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

No, really? You don't say.



Right-wing policy has to pass a very specific litmus test to be called Nazism, so far I'm not seeing it. I would be the first to admit it, if it were happening. Accusations alone are not enough.

This is all part and parcel with the left-wing delusion of the dogwhistle. They see boogeymen everywhere.



I don't think it would be ethical to share with you what the litmus test is because you will use it for selective-bias purposes. I'm not going to fuel this delusion further.

When George W. Bush launched the war on terror, expanded his Presidential power via Congress, and engaged in bellicose nationalism, the left made extremely convincing arguments that he was following a Nazi playbook. I should know, I was part of anti-Bush protests at that time. Meanwhile he just turned out to be a blithering idiot and as usual the left was whipping itself up into a frenzy because they didn't understand policy.

That would be an excellent case study for you to study re: false accusations of Nazism.



Oh yes, "it has been shown."

Have you visited any government websites and looked at actual ledgers, instead of just judging pretty graphic layouts? Because I have.

USAID is corrupted to the core and has exposed a bipartisan problem spanning 30 years if not more. They have been robbing us blind and turning our own media against us. This includes former GOP admins too btw. If you weren't so myopic you'd realize that.

I want all this shit audited, I don't care which "side" is in charge of it.

So there is a specific test to determine whether policies align with Nazism or not, but its a secret?

 

[Foreigner]

So there is a specific test to determine whether policies align with Nazism or not, but its a secret?

I already explained to you why I'm not telling you. Don't act like you didn't see it.

Why would I give someone like you ANY ammo to further misrepresent simple right wing policy???

Not helping you. Go figure it out on your own, if you're as research savvy as you claim.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I already explained to you why I'm not telling you. Don't act like you didn't see it.

Why would I give someone like you ANY ammo to further misrepresent simple right wing policy???

Not helping you. Go figure it out on your own, if you're as research savvy as you claim.

If there was an actual confirmed test then there wouldn't be a way to use it in a selectively biased manner, all you're doing is dancing around the point without substantiating anything.

Please, a secret Nazism test

 

[brokedownpalace10]

USAID is corrupted to the core and has exposed a bipartisan problem spanning 30 years if not more. They have been robbing us blind and turning our own media against us.

USAspending.gov

www.usaspending.gov

Didn't Trump and Musk say that Politico got 8 mil from USAID?
Politico sells high end institutional subscriptions for about $10,000

 

[someguyontheinternet]

USAspending.gov

www.usaspending.gov

Didn't Trump and Musk say that Politico got 8 mil from USAID?
Politico sells high end institutional subscriptions for about $10,000

Yea that's what I was talking about with the misrepresentation of the data

 

[alasdairm]

.

I mean, it's not like it would've mattered anyway. People who think the Trump admin is right-wing, neo-nazi fascism are not going to change their minds.

i think trump is right wing with a soft spot for nazis and white supremacists.

i'm absolutely open to having my mind changed on the issue of elon's salute and how people feel about it.

i gave you a chance to do that by simply linking me to the polls you say substantiate your claim. but you won't. so for now, my mind remains unchanged.

make a claim. back it up.

it seems so straightforward. mundane even. yet so many here seem unwilling to jump at the chance to simply prove what they're claiming is true.

i'd say that quality political discussion starts, at least in part, with that.

alasdair

 

[tryptakid]

As what?

I'm not sure what you're asking me.

What did I do? I worked within health and human services in a directorship, so I interfaced with legilsative interests, executive interests, bureaucratic interests and the public. Have I governed? No. I have been governed, and I've worked with those who govern and have earned an academic skill-set to be reasonably certain that I know what the fuck I'm talking about.

How about you? What expertise or insight can you provide?

 

[4DQSAR]

I feel authoritarian populist might more accuratly describe Donald Trump's behaviors. Don't forget that the Nazi party was merely one of the fascist movements that flourished in several European and an even larger number of South American nations in the earlier half of the 20th century.

It seems that it was Mussolini who was the inspiration for many. Terra, Perón, Salgardo, Keller, Cero and others are known to have studied the Mussolini's model. Franco was also an inspiration for many of those South American fascists.

I think it possible to identify both the populist and authoritarian elements of Donald Trump's campaigning and actions since arrival into the presidency.

A common definition of authoritarian popularists is 'individuals who are oriented by nativist and exclusionary goals, with no ideological coherence, and use tactics like scapegoating perceived out-groups for social or economic challenges while fostering a sense of existential threats to justify their extreme rhetoric and policies.'

I'm not saying that the above is neccicarily the most accurate definition as other features are often seen, but the lack of coherence provides for each example to demonstrate unique features. I would suggest that a division of a nation into two groups namely the 'elite' and 'the people'. To me it seems Donald Trump's behaviors share much more with Chávez, Bellusconi, Ferage, Le Pen, Orbán and Erdoğan than with Hitler, Mussolini or the other fascists I mentioned.

This doesn't mean they are not problematic. If you examine each case, it's clear that the common factor is an ablity to recognize single issues that enough people feel strongly about and will vote for whomever promises to tackle that single issue.

I think it important to note that authoritarian popularism isn't on some simple monolithic left<-->right political spectrum. I think what is more important is that they are authoritarian. Was a person living under the rule of Stalin any better served by the government than someone living under the rule of Franco?

In essence, it's someone who quite opnely seeks to better their own position and for whom the democratic process is a problem to be overcome rather than a guiding principle in their actions.

 

[Foreigner]

I'm not sure what you're asking me.

What did I do? I worked within health and human services in a directorship, so I interfaced with legilsative interests, executive interests, bureaucratic interests and the public. Have I governed? No. I have been governed, and I've worked with those who govern and have earned an academic skill-set to be reasonably certain that I know what the fuck I'm talking about.

That's all I was asking. I still don't think you know what you're talking about, in terms of the current predicament. You haven't said much in this thread that speaks to realpolitik. Just the usual partisan stuff.

 

[Foreigner]

.


i think trump is right wing with a soft spot for nazis and white supremacists.

I haven't seen any proof of this, and trust me I've looked. Is this because of his "fine people on both sides" comment he made one time like 7 years ago when the Proud Boys marched in Charlottesville?

i'm absolutely open to having my mind changed on the issue of elon's salute and how people feel about it.


i gave you a chance to do that by simply linking me to the polls you say substantiate your claim. but you won't. so for now, my mind remains unchanged.

So your opinion would change if you found out a lot of people disagreed with you? You form your opinions based on the herd?

My opinion is that we can't say with certainty that he intended to do a nazi salute. You, however, seem very certain.

make a claim. back it up.

No. We've been over this.

it seems so straightforward. mundane even. yet so many here seem unwilling to jump at the chance to simply prove what they're claiming is true.

See above. You want polls showing that most people don't care (#1) or don't think it was a sig heil (#2). Why? Because if you see you're a minority opinion you'll change your mind?

That makes you a populist. So why should I care?

i'd say that quality political discussion starts, at least in part, with that.

I've already explained twice now why I'm not playing citation games here. I did that in the covid threads for years, wasting hours, only for people here to just say "blah blah conspiracy theorist blah blah."

You can't use evidence to make people see when they don't want to see, so I don't play those games anymore.

If you think my claim isn't credible, then great! I'm not bothered.

You haven't shown any concrete evidence either that Musk for sure intended to do a sig heil. That's because there isn't any. All of his statements are also to the contrary. The Nazis of 1925-1939 did not make a secret of their white supremacy. It was public discourse. That's why I find these comparisons childish and idiotic. If Elon were a Nazi just like a sect within the ADf are Nazis, he would have been very vocal about it before now. There would have been some kind of explicit evidence of his philosophy. You can't be in the public eye to the degree he has and not let something truly slip.

He told us he was putting his hand on his heart and sending the love outward because he was being received with such love by the audience. Even if I don't know for sure, that's at least one plausible alternative explanation, is it not?

How can you just DECIDE it was a sig heil other than by succumbing to your own hyperpartisan bias???

This is all about the radical left's obsession with symbols and dogwhistles. They have been subverting speech for years now based on various witch hunts and "micro aggressions." Something that looks like a sig heil was a field day for them because blatant, explicit, authoritarian racism doesn't really exist anymore on a huge scale. Being able to point something out that could plausibly be explicit justified the existence of their whole bogus ideology.

 

[4DQSAR]

If you think my claim isn't credible, then great! I'm not bothered.

Yet you feel the need to constantly respond? The statement does not align with the action.

I've done my best to move on as I don't believe Donald Trump is a fascist, even less a Nazi. I think he's happy to pick up a demographic on a totally equal basis. He doesn't mind what the optics are. If they are single issue voters (or at least can be sawyed based on a small number of issues) and there are enough of them, he's happy to employ equivocal language and actions but I don't believe he himself is a fascist.

After all, he is a businessman and the 2 term limit means the wy fascism marries business and state would not be to his advantage. It wouldn't make sense to him.

As I see it, he has correctly realized that political power is a tremendous tool to expand his business activities. But that's all politics is to him, a means to an end. I'm not simple enough to think other politicians don't do the same. The only difference is that he is more open to using authoritarian methods to do so.

Hence authoritarian popularism.

-Consolodate power into the hands of a small number recruited from the 'elite'
-Suppress political opposition
-Spread disinformation
-Fuel politiclal violence
-Reframe non-political issues/institutions as political
-Use of coersion rather than building rational consent (i.e. consent borne from manufactured existential fear)

BTW obviously I don't know if you have studied Chávez, Bellusconi, Ferage, Le Pen, Orbán and Erdoğan but there are consistant patterns which in my opinion Donald Trump shares. I'm not saying I'm correct, only that I came to that conclusion after a lot of research. But to be clear, authortiaian popularism isn't by dedinition on a (overly simple IMO) left<-->right political spectrum. There have been examples whose power-base came largely from groups who would generally self-identify as being 'left leaning'. But as I said, is the man living under Stalin experiencing a world different from the man living under Franco?