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Miscellaneous What Psychedelics Do You All Wish Were More Accessible?

Esperighanto said:
I would venture further and say that the market looks for minimal bodyload, quick come-up, and high amounts of visuals too, filtering out many of the most insightful psychedelics for personal growth.
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So the most insightful psychedelics feel toxic? This actually just came up on The Shroomery:

Any negative side-effects from 2C-E, though? One thing I like about shrooms is they feel so healthy. The same can't be said for some other psychedelics. Owsley didn't like synthetic phenethylamines:

I'm just not in agreement with synthetics. I've experimented with a lot of these different things over a period of years, and I sat down one day and said, you know I'm just buggering myself up with this shit, and it's not taking me anywhere that I can't get with psilocybin, DMT, LSD, and mescaline. These are naturally occurring.[ * ] They work. Your body has a "history" of experience with them. People have used them for thousands and thousands of generations, and we've adapted to them because they exist in nature, they're there for us to use, they're the planetary hormones that allow us to bring our consciousness forward to the next level. They've always been used this way.

Owsley Stanley. Interview with an Alchemist: Bear Owsley Interview. Bruce Eisner's Writings. https://archive.vn/RAUXH


*I believe that they will find a plant which contains the exact diethylamide of lysergic acid in natural form. In alkaline alcoholic medium the isomers of the amines of lysergic acid will reach an equilibrium. This equilibrium will be a certain percentage of the iso compound, and a certain percentage of the normal compound. Of all the compounds listed experimentally by [Hofmann], LSD has the highest ratio of active to inactive isomers in the equilibrated mixture, it runs 88-12. Of all the compounds, and it lists about 20 of them, it has the highest ratio of active to inactive. This means that nature favours the active form of LSD over the inactive by a considerable margin.
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yes, body load can/will be a bitch, nausea, vomiting.

this is why I stayed low on these doses. 10-12mg oral max. Anything farther will be better served with a traditional psych. Fully agree with Owsley.

For me, LSD is the Once and Future King of psychedelics, the One Ring to rule them all. I guess according to Hamilton's pharmacopea there is an "ultra LSD", material "unlike we've ever seen". Fascinating, but we've never seen it, so LSD is undesputed King IMO. DMT easy #2. Mush make me feel poisoned with bodyload, super confusing, and very dark, like I'm suck in the Mines of Moria... but I'd be willing to try again the right strain. The other ones are a novelty or legal alternitive for a short while. 2CE is one of the best of those novelty, but I've only tried a handful of psychs to compare...
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red22 said:
So the most insightful psychedelics feel toxic? This actually just came up on The Shroomery:




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I saw your addendum but I really doubt Owsley would've been foolish enough to refer to the semisynthetic drug he was famous for synthesizing, as synthetic. I'm also unsure as to how he knew DMT occurred in nature back in his day, I'm pretty sure it was after the McKennas' ventures to the Amazon that such a thing was discovered but I'm not positive.

I wouldn't say the most insightful psychedelics specifically feel toxic, I mean, 5/6 out of Shulgin's "magical half dozen" were synthetic (DOM, DOB, 2C-T-2, 2-C-T-7, and 2C-B). Also, a variety of natural psychedelics are toxic, the combination of Banisteriopsis caapi has induced serotonin syndrome before in myself and others, ibogaine is quite toxic, 5-MeO-DMT can kill both from plants but also from toads. People very instinctively have this whole "natural = bad, synthetic = good" degree of chemophobia and frankly it's nonsense.

Imo allylescaline makes mescaline look pretty shitty, miprocin is what psilocin wishes it was, and there are countless variants of LSD (which is already semi-synthetic) such as the LADs, LSZ and the LSZ-LAD variants that are universally considered superior to LSD. DMT is also quite a garbage drug imo compared to DiPT, or 5-MeO-DiPT, but tryptamines seem to be a lot more subjectively variant than others.

The other thing that puzzles me is how humans so often assume natural to mean "not created by humans". Are humans not part of nature? Are we not animals just like an ant making an anthill, an ape pulling ants out of a hill with a stick, or any other animal that has tools and forms of communication akin to language? I suspect the hubris of humans leads us to think that we're somehow different from all that surrounds us, whether for the better or for the worse.

Edit: Most of my response is to the chemophobic nonsense you linked from the shroomery, not your writings specifically @red22
 
Esperighanto said:
Also, a variety of natural psychedelics are toxic, the combination of Banisteriopsis caapi has induced serotonin syndrome before in myself and others,
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Could you elaborate on that because as I understand it, serotonin syndrome is very rare and it's not even possible to get it from MAOIs, by themselves. There are even two reports of people using very high doses of Parnate, the strongest MAOI (doses don't usually go above 60).

He developed tolerance to the medication, however, and began to consume increasingly larger doses until he was taking up to 30 tablets (300 mg) per day; the medication was spaced throughout the day because he found that omission of afternoon and evening doses led to aggressive behavior and vivid nightmares.

A Case of Tranylcypromine (‘Parnate’) Addiction. Ben-Arie O, George GCW. British Journal of Psychiatry. 1979;135(3):273-274. doi:10.1192/bjp.135.3.273 (Case Report, pg. 275)

In May, 1962, he was given tranylcypromine (‘Parnate’) which had an effect on him similar to that of etryptamine maleate. However, he became dependent on the drug and started to increase the dose. Since then, he has been taking large doses intermittently, up to 700 mg. in one day, though more usually about 200 mg. daily. He has used illicit methods to get the drug and has changed his general practitioner seven times.


The Clinical State, Sleep and Amine Metabolism of a Tranylcypromine (‘Parnate’) Addict. Le Gassicke, J., Ashcroft, G. W., Eccleston, D., Evans, J. I., Oswald, I., & Ritson, E. B. 1965. British Journal of Psychiatry, 111(473), 357–364. doi:10.1192/bjp.111.473.357 (Clinical Summary, pg. 358)


It is, unfortunately, necessary to state clearly from the beginning that much of what is published by doctors in books and journals about MAOIs is either poorly informed, or just plain wrong. As an example, much of the information that comes with MAOIs (the PI, or product information sheet) contains inaccurate material concerning, among other things: serotonin toxicity, drug interactions generally, and dietary tyramine.

MAOIs (Parnate, Nardil): Misconceptions and Questions No. 1. Ken Gillman, MD. PsychoTropical Research. Nov. 14, 2012

...there is a great deal of misinformation and mythology about their dietary and drug interactions.

Practical guide for prescribing MAOIs: debunking myths and removing barriers. 2012. Grady MM, Stahl SM. CNS Spectrums. 17(1):2-10. doi:10.1017/S109285291200003X

These hurdles cause doctors to shy away from using MAOIs, but they are largely illusory. The two most prominent seem to be (1) the misperception that there are frequent drug interactions and (2) that there is a major risk of ingesting excessive tyramine (Tyr). Neither hurdle is complex nor difficult to overcome if the latest scientific evidence is considered.

“Much ado about nothing”: monoamine oxidase inhibitors, drug interactions, and dietary tyramine. 2017. Ken Gillman, MD. CNS Spectrums. 22(5):385-387. doi:10.1017/S1092852916000651 (Introduction)
 
red22 said:
Could you elaborate on that because as I understand it, serotonin syndrome is very rare and it's not even possible to get it from MAOIs, by themselves. There are even two reports of people using very high doses of Parnate, the strongest MAOI (doses don't usually go above 60).

He developed tolerance to the medication, however, and began to consume increasingly larger doses until he was taking up to 30 tablets (300 mg) per day; the medication was spaced throughout the day because he found that omission of afternoon and evening doses led to aggressive behavior and vivid nightmares.

A Case of Tranylcypromine (‘Parnate’) Addiction. Ben-Arie O, George GCW. British Journal of Psychiatry. 1979;135(3):273-274. doi:10.1192/bjp.135.3.273 (Case Report, pg. 275)

In May, 1962, he was given tranylcypromine (‘Parnate’) which had an effect on him similar to that of etryptamine maleate. However, he became dependent on the drug and started to increase the dose. Since then, he has been taking large doses intermittently, up to 700 mg. in one day, though more usually about 200 mg. daily. He has used illicit methods to get the drug and has changed his general practitioner seven times.

The Clinical State, Sleep and Amine Metabolism of a Tranylcypromine (‘Parnate’) Addict. Le Gassicke, J., Ashcroft, G. W., Eccleston, D., Evans, J. I., Oswald, I., & Ritson, E. B. 1965. British Journal of Psychiatry, 111(473), 357–364. doi:10.1192/bjp.111.473.357 (Clinical Summary, pg. 358)


It is, unfortunately, necessary to state clearly from the beginning that much of what is published by doctors in books and journals about MAOIs is either poorly informed, or just plain wrong. As an example, much of the information that comes with MAOIs (the PI, or product information sheet) contains inaccurate material concerning, among other things: serotonin toxicity, drug interactions generally, and dietary tyramine.

MAOIs (Parnate, Nardil): Misconceptions and Questions No. 1. Ken Gillman, MD. PsychoTropical Research. Nov. 14, 2012

...there is a great deal of misinformation and mythology about their dietary and drug interactions.

Practical guide for prescribing MAOIs: debunking myths and removing barriers. 2012. Grady MM, Stahl SM. CNS Spectrums. 17(1):2-10. doi:10.1017/S109285291200003X

These hurdles cause doctors to shy away from using MAOIs, but they are largely illusory. The two most prominent seem to be (1) the misperception that there are frequent drug interactions and (2) that there is a major risk of ingesting excessive tyramine (Tyr). Neither hurdle is complex nor difficult to overcome if the latest scientific evidence is considered.

“Much ado about nothing”: monoamine oxidase inhibitors, drug interactions, and dietary tyramine. 2017. Ken Gillman, MD. CNS Spectrums. 22(5):385-387. doi:10.1017/S1092852916000651 (Introduction)
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Ah, I mistyped "Banisteriopsis in combination with Argyreia nervosa", sorry about that.
 
Esperighanto said:
I would venture further and say that the market looks for minimal bodyload, quick come-up, and high amounts of visuals too, filtering out many of the most insightful psychedelics for personal growth.
Click to expand...
I think the market rewards the smoothest and least challenging substances because most people aren't looking for deep, soul searching experiences from anything. And so the market prizes the Katy Perry songs of psychedelics.
 
i'd like to try 5meo-amt again, even though i heard it's dangerous at certain doses.

i fasted for at least a day before i took it, usually psychedelics give me the shits... i'd like to take it again with out fasting and see if it effects my stomach just out of curiousity, and just a trip that lasts longer than lsd seems pretty cool to me... i don't really take lsd anymore cause it effects my stomach too much.. i'd love to have a lot of 5meo-amt if it didn't make my stomach need to shit so much that there was undigested food in my stool, making me totally constipated the day after tripping.

surprised to hear someone in this thread say mushrooms are hard to come by.. just how they grow all over the world, how easy it is to make prints, and they are sent online to so many places, shrooms and weed were always super easy for me to get.. lsd only came around like every year maybe even less than that. if you wanted to do it often, you'd have to buy a sheet. dmt was never even offered by any of my dealers... pretty much all the other standard drugs were around but like no one would try to sell meth. coke and mdma were around... but that wouldn't be something my dealers would sit on.. kind of seemed like everyone always had weed or shrooms.

i was thinking about how i commented a few months back how that in the early 2000's blue light had a lot more research chemical discussion. i was trying to think whether or not my comment was true, and i realized it kind of was... there really aren't nearly as many chemicals online anymore, and with blue light before you could kind of tell what is good, and what you could order while it was legal even though there was no sourcing.. with all the research chemicals people mention now, you can barely find any of them on the net at this point.

i personally don't really even use anything other than weed anymore. i'd probably shroom if it were legal... it's nothing i haven't done before, so i don't really think it's worth it to grow or hunt down shrooms under my circumstances.... i'd take acid again if it were for a science experiment to see how the seretonin in my stomach was effected. i'm not really interested in it unless it's to see what's the deal with that. maybe i could start taking it a lot again, and they could study what's going on. my stomach is heavily effected with the seretonin more than a lot of people. probably would be helpful to study.
 
red22 said:
So the most insightful psychedelics feel toxic? This actually just came up on The Shroomery:
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I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the "most insightful" psychedelics "feel 'toxic'." However we define the terms, I don't think that's consistent with any consensus around our relationship with these drugs.

Esperighanto said:
I'm pretty sure it was after the McKennas' ventures to the Amazon that such a thing was discovered but I'm not positive.
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You mean R.E. Schultes, right? It's been a minute, but iirc he was the first Caucasian to discover N,N-DMT in Amazonian psychedelic plants.
Esperighanto said:
universally considered superior to LSD
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Esperighanto said:
DMT is also quite a garbage drug imo compared to DiPT, or 5-MeO-DiPT
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These are some absolutely wild claims.

CashmereCat said:
I think the market rewards the smoothest and least challenging substances because most people aren't looking for deep, soul searching experiences from anything.
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You may be right. I don't think that people are rational actors when it comes to drug choice. I feel like they're even less rational when it comes to how they approach psychedelics. Cultural narratives and appeals to the authority of peer group seem really important to people. I'm currently trying to convince yet another one of my practicing doctor friends that they don't need and shouldn't want to travel to Latin America to pay a "shaman" to try a psychedelic for their first experience. It's in the cultural soup right now, and she so far can't be convinced that that isn't the safest way. It happens time and time again.
 
Pfafffed said:
You may be right. I don't think that people are rational actors when it comes to drug choice. I feel like they're even less rational when it comes to how they approach psychedelics. Cultural narratives and appeals to the authority of peer group seem really important to people. I'm currently trying to convince yet another one of my practicing doctor friends that they don't need and shouldn't want to travel to Latin America to pay a "shaman" to try a psychedelic for their first experience. It's in the cultural soup right now, and she so far can't be convinced that that isn't the safest way. It happens time and time again.
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I'm not sure most people are rational actors in most things, especially things they're unfamiliar with. Is it ayahuasca they're planning to try? Just guessing off the shaman and South America thing. If so that'd definitely not be my choice for a first psychedelic in any location.
 
Esperighanto said:
Do you guys think that it's just because psychedelic markets aren't as highly profiting as say, 3-MMC/4-MMC/Methamphetamine/Amphetamine/Cocaine/Fent markets?
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Absolutely.

In my region ketamine has overtaken cocaine as the party drug of choice and it's partially because it's so short lasting and ultimately addictive to some..

probably doesn't have quite the same turn around as coke (i know i just grabbed an 8 ball 3 hrs ago but can i swing by) but it's not far behind.
Esperighanto said:
It has a starting material in common with a prime constituent of nutmeg oil iirc?
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Correct, but parsnips are even better. Myristicin. Do the exact same process from safrole to MDA but instead you get MMDA. If you treat it like MDMA you'll get MMDMA... which reports are lacking tbh.
username_required said:
2C-B is very hard to come by from local sources or $500 a gram
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That's insane. I need to remind you that we don't discuss prices on BL...
 
I'm really happy to see 2C-B expanding past the "research chemical" phase. It's not quite mainstream, but anyone who dabbles in psychedelics has probably heard of it.

That said 2C-B is really the beginner psychedelic...

I would like to see more 2C-x's or their tweetios (fuck legality), TMA-2, and methoxylated MDxx's
 
Esperighanto said:
Hey guys,

This has been on my mind for a while, and I've been trying to figure out why some psychedelics that were such a boom fell out of business due to being banned, but similar ones didn't 2C-[E/I/D/P/iP/C] got banned and the production stopped, but not for 2C-B. 2C-B and 2C-C share almost identical syntheses and precursors as well, so why not provide the option of 2C-C on DNMs? Yet I haven't come across it on DNMs in many years. The same goes for N-benzylalted phyenthylamines, more 3,4,5-trisubstituted phenethylamines (think mescaline and friends), interesting lysergamides like the LADs and LSP[/B/Z/M], I could go on and on too about how benzo diversity is quite low when really the slight precursor shifts necessary to broaden what's available are incredibly easy.

Why was the golden age of RCs in the past if nowadays some ket chemist could create MXE and make an absolute fortune, or a 2C-B chemist could start creating DOB, DOC, 2C-B, 2C-C, their -NBOH, -NBMD and -NBOMe variants, and maybe some simple things such as Shulgin's essential amphetamines (TMA-2, DMMDA, DMMDA-2, MMDA-2, MMDA-3a, MMDA, etc.). Hell, even 2C-T-X's can be trivially synthesized from 2C-B which is wildely available right now, so why hasn't it returned to the market?

Do you guys think that it's just because psychedelic markets aren't as highly profiting as say, 3-MMC/4-MMC/Methamphetamine/Amphetamine/Cocaine/Fent markets?

Just generally wondering if there are any known of reasons that only a few RCs make it into the mainstream over time. I feel like DOM, 2C-B, 4-AcO-DMT, NEP and 4-MMC are some examples of RCs that "graduted" in a way into the world of "real drugs", if that makes any sense.

Interested to hear peoples' takes on this, I wasn't around for the major RC golden age so I'm very curious about what people may know about what led to its downfall in general. I'm also interested to hear about peoples' takes on non-RC psychedelics that are difficult to acquire in a meaningful amount of doses, such as mescaline and ibogaine.
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Lsd. It's one if not my favorite and I haven't had any in like 3 or 4 years. The last time someone gave me what they said was 120ug tabs the stuff made me so sick. I ended up tripping from them but it wasn't fun and made me feel weird
 
Ajh021787 said:
Lsd. It's one if not my favorite and I haven't had any in like 3 or 4 years. The last time someone gave me what they said was 120ug tabs the stuff made me so sick. I ended up tripping from them but it wasn't fun and made me feel weird
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yeah but LSD is everywhere.... and cheap.

If you had one wish to make one psychedelic more accessible, it would still be LSD?
 
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